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Wired_Irony

AGOT Reread- Daenerys

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Here are the weeks we will be reading Daenerys:

Sept. 25- Bran(I) Catelyn(I) Daenerys(I)

Oct. 16- Jon(II) Daenerys(II) Eddard(II)

Nov. 13- Arya(II) Daenerys(III) Bran(IV)

Dec. 11- Catelyn(VI) Eddard(IX) Daenerys(IV)

Jan. 8- Daenerys(V) Eddard(XIII) Jon(VI)

Jan. 22- Jon(VII) Bran(VI) Daenerys(VI)

Feb. 12- Daenerys(VII) Tyrion(VIII) Catelyn(X)

Feb. 19- Daenerys(VIII) Arya(V) Bran(VII)

Feb. 26- Sansa(VI) Daenerys(IX) Tyrion(IX)

Mar. 5- Jon(IX) Catelyn(XI) Daenerys(X)

And we may begin here, on her first chapter:

Daenerys (I)

Introduced: Daenerys Targaryen (Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt; daughter of King Aerys Targaryen, later wife of Khal Drogo, later Khaleesi of the Dothraki, later "Mother of Dragons");

Viserys Targaryen* (the Beggar King, second son of Aerys Targaryen, brother of Daenerys);

Magister Illyrio Mopatis (magister of Pentos, a wealthy merchant);

Ser Jorah Mormont (former Lord of Bear Island, a knight exiled from the Seven Kingdoms, son of Jeor Mormont, later Commander of Daenerys' Queensguard, later still exiled by Dany);

Khal Drogo* (Khal of the Dothraki, later husband of Daenerys);

Khal Moro (another Khal of the Dothraki);

Rhogoro (Khal Moro’s son).

First mentioned: Prince Rhaegar Targaryen* (eldest son of King Aerys Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, brother of Daenerys and Viserys, killed at the Trident by Robert Baratheon);

Princess Elia Targaryen* (of House Martell, wife of Rhaegar, killed by Ser Gregor Clegane during the sack of King’s Landing; sister of Prince Doran Martell and Prince Oberyn);

Ser Willem Darry* (knight who rescued Dany and Viserys from Dragonstone and brought them to Braavos, former master-at-arms of King's Landing);

Princess Rhaenys* (daughter of Rhaegar and Elia, slain by Ser Amory Lorch during the sack of King’s Landing);

Prince Aegon* (infant son of Rhaegar and Elia, slain by Ser Gregor at his mother’s breast ).

<NOTE: neither Rhaenys nor Aegon are mentioned by name until Daenerys’ fifth chapter in ACOK>.

Dany is getting ready for her arranged introduction to Khal Drogo to become his bride. Viserys wants nothing more than Khal Drogo’s thousands of men to invade the Seven Kingdoms. Magister Illyrio has arranged this betrothal. Dany wonders why Magister Illyrio helps them at all, having heard rumors that he had friends throughout the 9 Free Cities, and all the way to Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, yet he didn’t have a friend he wouldn’t sell if the price were right. Viserys believes Illyrio helps them because he realizes Viserys is the rightful King. Viserys threatens Dany to look and act her best in front of Khal Drogo. Dany remembers the stories of her brother Rhaegar dying on the Trident at the hands of Robert Baratheon for the woman he loved (the question here is: was the woman his wife Elia or Lyanna Stark?).

Dany was born on Dragonstone nine months after they fled King’s Landing. Her mother died in childbirth, her father killed 9 months before by Ser Jaime Lannister, a Kingsguard sworn to protect him. The garrison at Dragonstone had been prepared to sell her and Viserys to the Usurper, but Ser Willem Darry took them to Braavos to escape certain death. They lived poor after Darry’s death, begging for a living, until Illyrio took them in. As they approach Khal Drogo’s manse, Viserys calculates that all he’ll need is ten thousand men, since the Tyrells, Redwynes, Darrys and Greyjoys will all help him when he lands. At the party, Illyrio points out Ser Jorah Mormont, a knight exiled 5 years ago for selling poachers to a Tyroshi slaver rather than giving them over to the Night’s Watch. Khal Drogo’s braid has never been cut, which among the Dothraki means he has never lost a battle. Illyrio brings Khal Drogo over to meet Dany.

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I don't think Dany was born 9 months after her father's death

IIRC:

From ASOS, jamie's chapters, it was said that Aerys was turned on by burning people, so we can assume Dany was consieved when Ned's father was killed (beginning of war). Her mother went to Dragonstone the day after, maybe? War lasted a year, or so, so Dany was born when her father was alive, but she was on Dragonstone, and she (with Viserys and that Darry dude) escaped to Braavos shortly after her father died (sack of KL- end of war)

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I don't think Dany was born 9 months after her father's death

IIRC:

From ASOS, jamie's chapters, it was said that Aerys was turned on by burning people, so we can assume Dany was consieved when Ned's father was killed (beginning of war). Her mother went to Dragonstone the day after, maybe? War lasted a year, or so, so Dany was born when her father was alive, but she was on Dragonstone, and she (with Viserys and that Darry dude) escaped to Braavos shortly after her father died (sack of KL- end of war)

Moreover, I was under the impression that Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone during the Rebellion, but well before the sack of Kings Landing. Elia was kept at King's Landing as a hostage to keep the Dornish on good behavior. Is the 9-month figure actually from the text of AGoT? That might suggest that Dany is *not* the daughter of Aerys II... but that's pretty crackpot. It's got to be a mistake, no?

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from Daenerys I in AGOT:

"She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart"

So I would say that's roughly nine months after they fled KL which happened if my memory serves me correctly somewhere during the rebellion. Aerys was fond of burning people and did so on a regular basis. Taking in to account that Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone during the rebellion it's safe to say Daenerys wasn't conceived when Ned's father was killed, but most likely some weeks or months after. Remember also the rebellion started when Jon Arryn raised his banners after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert, which happened after he'd already killed Lord Rickard and Brandon, and it would've taken at least a few weeks before Jon Arryn learned off it and banners were raised.

Dany remembers the stories of her brother Rhaegar dying on the Trident at the hands of Robert Baratheon for the woman he loved (the question here is: was the woman his wife Elia or Lyanna Stark?).

I've always wondered about this one. The problem with it referring to Lyanna Stark is that in all the Dany chapters sofar she completely despises the Starks. Had her brother been in love with one of them, surely she would have at least had a thought about Lyanna once when thinking about Starks. But she only reffers to them as usurpurs.

Also I believe it is Mormont who at one point tells her about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of Elia. Dany is pretty shocked or surprised by that, so had she known Rhaegar loved Lyanna (if he indeed did) I imagine the reaction would have been something different.

The thing is Elia had little to do with the war. Depending on who you ask Rhaegar fought the battle of the Trident either over a woman namely Lyanna, or to save his kingdom. Elia never comes into play at all. So Rhaegar fighting on the Trident for Elia whom he loved doesn't seem to fit either. Course who knows what nonsense Viscerys has been feeding Dany.

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So I would say that's roughly nine months after they fled KL which happened if my memory serves me correctly somewhere during the rebellion. Aerys was fond of burning people and did so on a regular basis. Taking in to account that Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone during the rebellion it's safe to say Daenerys wasn't conceived when Ned's father was killed, but most likely some weeks or months after. Remember also the rebellion started when Jon Arryn raised his banners after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert, which happened after he'd already killed Lord Rickard and Brandon, and it would've taken at least a few weeks before Jon Arryn learned off it and banners were raised.

You're right. from the www.towerofthehand.com, Jamie V chapter ASOS:

Lord Jon Cunnington was exiled after losing the Battle of the Bells and replaced as Hand by Lord Qarlton Chelsted. Aerys commanded three leading alchemists, Rossart, Belis, and Garigus, to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Lord Qarlton figured out what was happening and tried to dissuade Aerys through reason, jest, threats, and outright begging. When he failed, he threw down his chain of office, so Aerys had him burned alive and made Rossart his new Hand (it was the night when Dany was concieved). After Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident, Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone.

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Also I believe it is Mormont who at one point tells her about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of Elia. Dany is pretty shocked or surprised by that, so had she known Rhaegar loved Lyanna (if he indeed did) I imagine the reaction would have been something different.

It is not clear that Dany was actually surprised though. She just asks why. Her reaction is also consistent with her having known about it all along, but never having understood why on earth Rhaegar did fall in love with this Stark girl when he already had Elia.

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It is not clear that Dany was actually surprised though. She just asks why. Her reaction is also consistent with her having known about it all along, but never having understood why on earth Rhaegar did fall in love with this Stark girl when he already had Elia.

'Love match' versus political match. Though we hear from several people that he stole her away and raped her.

Maybe he just wanted some non-Martell quim?

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This is actually the chapter that got me interested in the series.

The description starting from "And perhaps the dragon did remember. . ." It was in direct contrast to Catelyn's chapter and her recollection of Robert's Rebellion. That chapter told/showed me that this wasn't just a typical fantasy story.

Dany was and remains a clearly sympathetic figure. Please, Dany-bashers take note.

On every re-read, however, Viserys comes across as dumber and dumber.

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With this reread, I was struck by interesting similarities between Dany and two other women in the series.

This chapter details Dany’s arranged marriage to a man she doesn’t love. The marriage is made for political reasons, to cement an alliance that may help win a war. She is leaving the only home she has ever known to live with a stranger whose customs are substantially different from hers. We’ve already seen part of this same story in the series. It’s exactly what happened to Catelyn, although we don’t entirely know it yet. It makes sense that this chapter follows Catelyn’s first chapter.

Martin has multiple themes involving the roles of women, and one of them seems to be the woman’s journey as embodied by the three female aspects of the seven: the Maid, the Mother, and the Crone. So far in the series, he has given us three major Mother figures that I can think of: Catelyn, Dany and Cersei. We see how Catelyn and Cersei journey from maids to mothers (and, with Catelyn, to crone) later in the series, through flashbacks. With Dany, he tells us practically the entire story, starting with this chapter. Interestingly, he marries off each of these Mothers to the differing male aspects of the seven: Catelyn to Ned the Father, Cersei to Robert the Smith, and Dany to Drogo the Warrier. Not sure what exactly he’s trying to say with this, but it’s odd that the males aspects of the seven are not a chronological evolution like with the female aspects, and that all of the men married to Mothers die tragically in the series.

I was also struck by some similarities between Dany and Arya in this chapter. Dany has been wandering homeless her entire life, and has clearly learned some harsh lessons along the way, much like Arya does later in the series. Dany listens “to the talk of the street.†She knows not to trust Illyrio, and that no one provides her with gifts for free. Martin also writes, “For a moment, she wished she could be out there with (ragged children playing in the streets), barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend…†This struck me as a very Arya-like thought.

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Interestingly, he marries off each of these Mothers to the differing male aspects of the seven: Catelyn to Ned the Father, Cersei to Robert the Smith, and Dany to Drogo the Warrier. Not sure what exactly he’s trying to say with this, but it’s odd that the males aspects of the seven are not a chronological evolution like with the female aspects, and that all of the men married to Mothers die tragically in the series.

Minor quibbles...

I don't know that Robert was representative of the Smith. I saw him more as, well, emptiness really. He was the *the* Warrior in his youth, when he won a crown and married Cersei. But, like unused steel, went to rust as time passed. Not really the Warrior anymore, Robert doesn't really fit into a category. The Smith, one who builds, repairs, constructs, is somewhat antithetical to Robert, who was simply lazy and demotivated. True, he might still have visually looked like a Smith, but I don't know that the pattern you're seeing here really fits.

Dany and Cersei certainly married warriors. Both warriors died soon after marriage (though Robert's death was figurative for awhile), leaving their wives on their own. In both cases, the Mothers bore children not of their husbands (Cersei's incestuous children, and Dany's dragons). And in both cases, the Mothers rejected the path of the crone and opted to take their husband's place as Warriors (Cersei rejects being only the Lady of the Rock, and stays as Regent, becoming more male in her dealings with Lady Taena. Dany rejects the Dosh Khaleen and becomes the first khaleesi, becoming more male, perhaps in her inability to bear children).

Some interesting avenues in the above quibbles aside, the female evolution versus the male roles might simply be that, in Westeros, women's lives are dictated by family and age, while men's lives are dictated by role... women are expected to play out a particular role in society, whereas men are not so constrained. What that means for Cersei and Dany, who reject that ideal, is up for discussion.

Thoughts?

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Maester Yobjascz,

You may be right about Robert. He certainly did possess a number of characteristics that would qualify him as more of a Warrior than Smith type. However, it's hard for me to believe that Martin would give Robert a hammer if it didn't have some symbolic meaning behind it. As far as I can tell, Robert is the only person in the series who fights with a hammer. It's a very unusual choice. The only other place we see hammers mentioned is in reference to the Smith, and in reference to Robert's bastard son Gendry, who is training to be a smith. I think these facts alone create a strong enough link to make the case. But you are still correct - there is nothing about Robert himself besides his hammer that connects him to the Smith. As the reread continues, l'll look more at Martin's use of language around Robert to see if that strengthens or weakens the comparison.

I hadn't thought about Cersei and Dany both rejecting the path of the crone. That's a great catch. I've always considered Cersei and Dany, along with Sansa, to be part of Martin's statement about what it means to rule as a queen. Your observation about them both becoming more "male" fits in with that.

I think your observation about the Seven is correct. In Westeros, men have choices in their roles, while women do not. Gender issues really seem to be a central part of this story. The funny thing is - most of it is seen from the women acting more like men side (Cersei, Dany, Arya, Brienne). We don't see any of the men acting more like women, which I'd expect in this series. And don't suggest Renly and Loras = men acting like women. While they're clearly gay, I don't think that fact alone is equivalent.

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I've always wondered about this one. The problem with it referring to Lyanna Stark is that in all the Dany chapters sofar she completely despises the Starks. Had her brother been in love with one of them, surely she would have at least had a thought about Lyanna once when thinking about Starks. But she only reffers to them as usurpurs.

Also I believe it is Mormont who at one point tells her about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of Elia. Dany is pretty shocked or surprised by that, so had she known Rhaegar loved Lyanna (if he indeed did) I imagine the reaction would have been something different.

The thing is Elia had little to do with the war. Depending on who you ask Rhaegar fought the battle of the Trident either over a woman namely Lyanna, or to save his kingdom. Elia never comes into play at all. So Rhaegar fighting on the Trident for Elia whom he loved doesn't seem to fit either. Course who knows what nonsense Viscerys has been feeding Dany.

Maybe Dany thinks that Rhaegar died for Elia's love--sort of the youthful ideal that Sansa loves about her songs, and it only occurs to her later that Rhaegar loved anyone but his wife.

I found it odd that Dany thinks of Rhaegar dying for the love of a woman. It probably didn't seem odd on the first read, because this is really the introduction to the Targaryens. But even if Rhaegar loved Elia and not Lyanna, why is battling Robert on the Trident any evidence of his love? She's still alive in KL with the kids, and Robert doesn't seem to want Elia at all. I agree that she doesn't have anything to do with the war, except as insurance against a Dornishman defection. I would think Rhaegar would identify the battle with saving his father's kingdom and his eventual throne. I'm assuming Dany got the idea from Viserys that Rhaegar died for the love of a woman--where did he get the idea? He probably wasn't old enough to remember the tournament in the year of the false spring when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, and I doubt he was Rhaegar's confidant, so where did the idea come from?

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Dany says that the Dothraki calls Westeros Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. Does anyone know what leads the Dothraki to identify with the Andal aspect of the Seven Kingdoms as opposed to the Rhoynar or any other group?

Also, Dany's goals in this chapter are quite different from her goals through the rest of the series after she marries Khal Drogo. Right before she leaves to go meet him, she thinks about Viserys's obsession with recapturing the Seven Kingdoms. "All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known." Funny how she inherits Viserys's desperate longing to return to Westeros and rule. Maybe Martin's just making a point about childish wishes and growing up. He seems to have a lot of children taking on adult responsibilities early (Dany, Bran, Robb, Arya, I'm sure there are more).

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This is actually the chapter that got me interested in the series.

The description starting from "And perhaps the dragon did remember. . ." It was in direct contrast to Catelyn's chapter and her recollection of Robert's Rebellion. That chapter told/showed me that this wasn't just a typical fantasy story.

Dany was and remains a clearly sympathetic figure. Please, Dany-bashers take note.

On every re-read, however, Viserys comes across as dumber and dumber.

Dany started did start out a sympathetic character for me, maybe I will figure out what made me indifferent to her plight in this reread.

Viserys is not only egocentric and egomaniacal, he is physically and mentally cruel to Dany. She has no true memories of Westeros, only the history that Viserys wishes to give her. And Viserys is a viscious person, I believe. He is a character who uses the "waking the daragon" to thinly disguise a terrible temper.

As noted above, Dany is a good listener, and has picked up many things about Illyrio Mapatis and how the people feel about Viserys and his claim to Westeros. She knows the story of her birth fairly well, and part of that may have come from Ser Willem Darry. I wonder who the four other loyalists were and where they are now, do they still play a role in the game? The reader is not given any information as to what Darry told her, other than calling her "my lady" and "my princess."

The way Rhaeger's death is separated from the death of Elia seems to indicate that someone gave her the right sequence, but may not have told her that Rhaeger died for the love of some other woman.

I, too pity the little girl shoved out of the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside her window. I hope she finds it in her travels. She is all the more pitiful in the wandering because her horrible brother is with her every step of the way, grousing and complaining.

The Night Watch is mentioned in yet another chapter. And a borrowed sword that Visreys has never swung in anger (see Ser Waymar Royce). The reader is introduced to another religion of the Lord of Light and his red priest with their fires- but I did not sense fear when Illlryio spoke of them. And the name Mormont is again mentioned - someone who has had recent dealings with Westeros justice and the Night's Watch.

I like the fact that Drogo's size and coloring, and his complete maleness is played against Dany's. And I like the fact that she is the one who is the means back to Westeros, not her sniveling brother.

Viserys is the second character the reader meets who badly needs killing.

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Okay, I'm going to continue the question thing I did in the Prologue but this time I will ask more general questions. Almost as a template for all chapters.

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

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Also I believe it is Mormont who at one point tells her about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of Elia. Dany is pretty shocked or surprised by that, so had she known Rhaegar loved Lyanna (if he indeed did) I imagine the reaction would have been something different.

The thing is Elia had little to do with the war. Depending on who you ask Rhaegar fought the battle of the Trident either over a woman namely Lyanna, or to save his kingdom. Elia never comes into play at all. So Rhaegar fighting on the Trident for Elia whom he loved doesn't seem to fit either. Course who knows what nonsense Viscerys has been feeding Dany.

I always thought it applied to Lyanna. Also, if I remember right it was not Mormount, it was Ser Selmy Barristan who answered Danny's questions about her brother's martial prowness by citing the Great Tourney at Harranhall. Dany then responds in shock saying something like: "But that was the tourney where he (Rhaegar) crowned the Stark girl queen of love and beauty."

We know from AGofT that Viserys told Danny that it was her fault that Rhaegar went after that "wolf girl" (ie If Dany had been born earlier Rhaegar would have had an incestous realtionship with Dany instead of chasing after Lyanna). Thus I think it safe to say that Dany knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar.

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Viserys did tell Daenerys about Lyanna. In her first chapter she recalls that Rhaegar's death was tied in with his love of her. The funny thing is that she calls the Starks as the Usurper's dogs along with the Lannisters. This persective of hers is understandable though, as she is an exiled Targaryen and her history teacher is Viserys.

The first time I read this chapter I was thrown off by the location and other references and cities that were not mentioned in the prvious chapters and that weren't on the maps.

Dany has become just a tool for Viserys's ambitions by this point in their lives. Who does he figure he would marry when he became King? All his talk of pure-blood to her is hypocritical. The Magister is also silently mocking him.

One thing I'm going to pay attention is Daenerys's transition from wanting the house with the red door as her home to actually wanting Westeros. She doesn't remember a thing of it. Perhaps after her brother died she realized as the last Targaryen, it fell on her shoulders to claim her bloodright.

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I wouldn't bring this up, since this is a re-read, but Oba did challenge 'Dany bashers'.

Dany was and remains a clearly sympathetic figure. Please, Dany-bashers take note.

You can claim sympathy for her character, but you can't exactly claim sympathy for her cause. Unless of course you believe fully that the two are the same.

One thing I'm going to pay attention is Daenerys's transition from wanting the house with the red door as her home to actually wanting Westeros. She doesn't remember a thing of it. Perhaps after her brother died she realized as the last Targaryen, it fell on her shoulders to claim her bloodright.

That's when I stopped caring for her, because originally it was Visery's cause that she didn't care much for. She didn't care for the royalty or anything, was happy as Drogo's wife, and when things go bad she decides to pick up that 'cause'.

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Viserys did tell Daenerys about Lyanna. In her first chapter she recalls that Rhaegar's death was tied in with his love of her. The funny thing is that she calls the Starks as the Usurper's dogs along with the Lannisters. This persective of hers is understandable though, as she is an exiled Targaryen and her history teacher is Viserys.

The first time I read this chapter I was thrown off by the location and other references and cities that were not mentioned in the prvious chapters and that weren't on the maps.

NW - please give me the page number concerning Viserys telling Dany that Rhaegar's death was tied with his love of Lyanna. I don't mean to be rude, but I can't find it. I was surprised when she knows that Harrenhal was the place of the crowning of Lyanna and that Rhager later stole her away from her bethrothed (aSoS). She seemed to have more information in aSOS than AGoT.

What I find disturbing, is that NO ONE talks about it. It must have been a scandal. People love to gossip. Cersei acts as though she could have had Rhaegar if Robert hadn't killed him at the Trident.

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What I find disturbing, is that NO ONE talks about it. It must have been a scandal. People love to gossip. Cersei acts as though she could have had Rhaegar if Robert hadn't killed him at the Trident.

Good point. It seems as if much gossip in the series is spread through song, but the singers we come across don't use this incident at all. And it's a perfect tragic tale.

Also, Illyrio is telling Viserys and Dany that the smallfolk in Westeros are all wishing for the return of the Targaryens, sewing dragon banners and such, or at least Viserys is inferring this from what Illyrio actually says. But from what the readers see of the smallfolk, this is not the case. I kind of even laughed at Viserys for being so guillible, but it does beg the question, why don't we hear much of common people talking about the Targaryens? Has Robert's rule just been so peaceful and prosperous that they shudder at returning to something like Aerys's insanity? Or is it just that they don't care as long as there is no direct war and they have enough food, etc., as someone in AGOT (can't remember who) points out. But this is juicy gossip, even 20 years later. Why aren't they talking about it?

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