AGOT Reread- Daenerys

[oba]

NW - please give me the page number concerning Viserys telling Dany that Rhaegar's death was tied with his love of Lyanna. I don't mean to be rude, but I can't find it. I was surprised when she knows that Harrenhal was the place of the crowning of Lyanna and that Rhager later stole her away from her bethrothed (aSoS). She seemed to have more information in aSOS than AGoT.

"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes."

Dany makes a distinction between Rhaegar's dying for the woman he loved and Princess Elia of Dorne.

She does it again later in book one.

"She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved."

Book 3.

" 'But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!' said Dany. 'Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he dot that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?' "

What I find disturbing, is that NO ONE talks about it. It must have been a scandal. People love to gossip. Cersei acts as though she could have had Rhaegar if Robert hadn't killed him at the Trident.

[Knight of Stars]

Good point. It seems as if much gossip in the series is spread through song, but the singers we come across don't use this incident at all. And it's a perfect tragic tale.

Also, Illyrio is telling Viserys and Dany that the smallfolk in Westeros are all wishing for the return of the Targaryens, sewing dragon banners and such, or at least Viserys is inferring this from what Illyrio actually says. But from what the readers see of the smallfolk, this is not the case. I kind of even laughed at Viserys for being so guillible, but it does beg the question, why don't we hear much of common people talking about the Targaryens? Has Robert's rule just been so peaceful and prosperous that they shudder at returning to something like Aerys's insanity? Or is it just that they don't care as long as there is no direct war and they have enough food, etc., as someone in AGOT (can't remember who) points out. But this is juicy gossip, even 20 years later. Why aren't they talking about it?

I read somewhere that the smallfolk don't care so much about who is ruling them, as they do about peace and prosperity. I can understand this, especially in Westeros times.

But the silence concerning Rhaeger running off with Lyanna is thundering. And "they" won. Unless it's pride - Robert may have outlawed and disappeated any bards singing of the romance and the girl he lost to a Targaryen. But still, youid think someone would say something.

[The Adequate Jon]

Not much to add. GRRM has an Unsullied in this chapter, two books before they become important.

[DBaron]

Also, Illyrio is telling Viserys and Dany that the smallfolk in Westeros are all wishing for the return of the Targaryens, sewing dragon banners and such, or at least Viserys is inferring this from what Illyrio actually says. But from what the readers see of the smallfolk, this is not the case. I kind of even laughed at Viserys for being so guillible, but it does beg the question, why don't we hear much of common people talking about the Targaryens? Has Robert's rule just been so peaceful and prosperous that they shudder at returning to something like Aerys's insanity? Or is it just that they don't care as long as there is no direct war and they have enough food, etc., as someone in AGOT (can't remember who) points out. But this is juicy gossip, even 20 years later. Why aren't they talking about it?

Not until AFFC do we hear much about Targ sentiment. Dick Crabb mentions being a loyal Dragon man, and IIRC there is something about the hangings in Castle Darry. He is also right about Dorne yearning for revenge, at least as far as the sand snakes and the royalty are concerned.

Rereading the chapter I am struck at how many details Dany can pick up on, and I can't help but feel a bit of pity for Viserys.

Some questions though:

Jorah is there, is he a spy at this point, or does he become one later?

The Archon of Tyrosh's brother is there is well, and doesn't the Archon have some connection to Doran Martell?

When was Viserys promised to Arriane?

Why would Khal Drogo even consider marrying Dany?

[A wilding]

I read somewhere that the smallfolk don't care so much about who is ruling them, as they do about peace and prosperity. I can understand this, especially in Westeros times.

But the silence concerning Rhaeger running off with Lyanna is thundering. And "they" won. Unless it's pride - Robert may have outlawed and disappeated any bards singing of the romance and the girl he lost to a Targaryen. But still, youid think someone would say something.

True.

The only explanation that I can come up with is that there is widespread knowledge that it was a consensual relationship and that Robert's blusterings about kidnap and rape are just blusterings. People are going to be careful of talking about the true story, because contradicting the King can get you made shorter by a head, while at the same time the truth is sufficiently well known that no one particularly wants to parrot Robert's version of events.

[Nan Greenseer]

Some questions though:

Jorah is there, is he a spy at this point, or does he become one later?

I think he's already one, because it's not much later in AGOT that Arya overhears Illryio and Varys talking in the catacombs of KL, and I believe they discuss Mormont. I'm not sure about that, though.

Why would Khal Drogo even consider marrying Dany?

VERY good question--maybe Illyrio gave him something he wanted in exchange?

[Ealasaid]

Minor quibbles...

I don't know that Robert was representative of the Smith. I saw him more as, well, emptiness really. He was the *the* Warrior in his youth, when he won a crown and married Cersei. But, like unused steel, went to rust as time passed. Not really the Warrior anymore, Robert doesn't really fit into a category. The Smith, one who builds, repairs, constructs, is somewhat antithetical to Robert, who was simply lazy and demotivated. True, he might still have visually looked like a Smith, but I don't know that the pattern you're seeing here really fits.

Dany and Cersei certainly married warriors. Both warriors died soon after marriage (though Robert's death was figurative for awhile), leaving their wives on their own. In both cases, the Mothers bore children not of their husbands (Cersei's incestuous children, and Dany's dragons). And in both cases, the Mothers rejected the path of the crone and opted to take their husband's place as Warriors (Cersei rejects being only the Lady of the Rock, and stays as Regent, becoming more male in her dealings with Lady Taena. Dany rejects the Dosh Khaleen and becomes the first khaleesi, becoming more male, perhaps in her inability to bear children).

Some interesting avenues in the above quibbles aside, the female evolution versus the male roles might simply be that, in Westeros, women's lives are dictated by family and age, while men's lives are dictated by role... women are expected to play out a particular role in society, whereas men are not so constrained. What that means for Cersei and Dany, who reject that ideal, is up for discussion.

Thoughts?

I agree with you that Robert is (as he is sitll alive in this chapter) not the Warrior or the Smith. I think that he would fit in the Father side of the crystal, but Cersei has made sure that he has no access the children. Recall how Jaime immediately piked up on Joffrey trying to please his "father "with the catspaw. He could only be what she was meant to be with his natural children - Mya Stone speaks of him affectionately. Certainly, he could have picked up the warrior role, but I believe that he was being lulled into a role that certain persons wanted - a dunkard who failed to see the fissures in his role.

Interesting note about Dany and Cersei as warriors. Cersei is an unnatural sort of mother, and she's not very good at being the warrior either. Dany, being a better mother to her children - the dragons and the people she frees, is also a better warrior. I don't know what that means for Cersei. I don't see her embracing the crone role and beoming an advsior or grandmother.

VERY good question--maybe Illyrio gave him something he wanted in exchange?

IMHO, I think Drogo was interested in Dany because she was so different, and Illyrio probably played up her ability to give him The Stallion who Mounts the World. It must have been a prohecy floating about, but we never get the details on the requirement for his arrival.

[Barba]

Okay, I'm going to continue the question thing I did in the Prologue but this time I will ask more general questions. Almost as a template for all chapters.

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

I don't remember what I thought of it the first time, except that I hated Viserys for hurting his sister.

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

I did noticed that on the entrance we see Unussullied, and latter are mentioned Guests:"Many were Dotharki horselords, ... . Yet among them moved many Braavos, and SELLSWORDS (Golden company??) from Pentos, Myr and Tyrosh, a red priest even fatter than Illyrio(Thoros,I'm sure)Hairy men from Port of Ibben, and Lords of the summer Islands..."

So this kinda hit me as odd. Khal Drogo has some sort of party in his manse, now why would he bother to call all of this type of men. IIRC Dotharki hate people around them and (from the impression I got of them in AGOT) all they do is kill and destroy. Don't missunderstand, all this guests can be invited, and the reason that they are here is plot-intended. Martin, I think, in her first chapter puts all types of caracters (sellswords, Ibbenmen, Summerislanders, Unussullied, and thoros) that will be important to Dany in her future.

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

It was not, IMO, character developing. It is showing us what Dany was untill the beginning of AGOT. It has plot development - Dany is getting married.

Viserys did tell Daenerys about Lyanna. In her first chapter she recalls that Rhaegar's death was tied in with his love of her. The funny thing is that she calls the Starks as the Usurper's dogs along with the Lannisters. This persective of hers is understandable though, as she is an exiled Targaryen and her history teacher is Viserys.

It is not strange to call the starks Usurpers dogs. Stark was one of main bannermans to the Robert. She just (in her mind) puts Lyanna out of them. Only thing that is funny to me is that She thinks that Rhaegar, as a prince, has a right to do whatever he likes, even if it means to take someone other's bethroted.

But, even that can be understood. I remember that Aegon the unworthy had 9 mistresses. at least one of them had been married before he took her. I'm not saying that she is right to think this, but that I can understand why.

That's when I stopped caring for her, because originally it was Visery's cause that she didn't care much for. She didn't care for the royalty or anything, was happy as Drogo's wife, and when things go bad she decides to pick up that 'cause'.

As I said, Dany is just a girl. Do you expect from children to take their father's liege at the age of 13. I guess not. But after all her familly dies, and her dragons are born, what do you expect from her to do. Get back to braavos and take over the house with red door, and live in it happily ever after. She grew up, and took the cause of her familly, something you expect from kids to do when they grow up.

Jorah is there, is he a spy at this point, or does he become one later?

Don't know, but it dosen't matter. It might be that he became spy in this chapter. But something here crossed my mind. He was a knight, and was exiled. More than anything he wants to get back home. Now if you're in this kind of pozition (knight, exiled, nostalgic), where do you go - you join Golden Company. Maybe that is where he was before he joined dany, or where he went after Dany exiled him

When was Viserys promised to Arriane?

Don't think so. Doran planned it, but Viserys died before it could be arranged

EDIT: Wired Irony, there is a fat red priest appearing in this chapter, and it could be Thoros. Even Martin said that he imagined Thoros to be friar Tuck of westeros, at least in GOT. You could put Thoros as Character that appears in chapter, with couple of ?? to say that it's not comfirmed.

[Morgana]

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

I felt a lot of sympathy for Dany. I still feel the same sympathy for her. She has only had a half mad idiot to tell her of her dead family and he is nothing but a cruel perverse little bastard. Of course, I also wonder why they call Robert the Usurper but Aegon the Conqueror?

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

I don't know if it is important but I noticed that Jaime calls Cersei "sweet sister" and Viserys refers to Dany as "sweet sister" in this chapter quite frequently. It is probably just coincidental but it just caught my attention. I really like Dany's rememberance of the house with the red door and the lemon tree. This is something she comes back to later when she goes into the house of the undying.

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

This chapter gives us quite a bit into the character of Dany. We see that even though she is terrified of Drogo, she is even more scared of Viserys. The plot is moved along by Drogo's acceptance of Dany as his bride. At this point, you would assume that the Dothraki will eventually accompany Viserys to Westeros as planned. We all know that doesn't happen thankfully.

[Tarthking]

Jorah is there, is he a spy at this point, or does he become one later?

I think Jorah is clearly a spy, even then. Illyrio makes it a priority to point him out to Dany. I don't have the books with me now, but I believe Illyrio points to two very important people in Pentos, and then points to Mormont. At that point, Mormont was an exiled knight, essentially nothing better than a sellsword. Why would Illyrio pay any attention to him at all, much less point him out to Dany? Considering the connection between Varys and Illyrio, I think it's safer to assume that Mormont was always a spy.

I also think Varys and Illyrio carefully picked Mormont to appeal to Dany as a father figure. Martin describes William Darry as "bear-like" in this chapter. He's the only father figure she has ever known. Mormont is also obviously bear-like. I suspect Illyrio picked Mormont exactly because of the similarity. This explains Dany's response to Mormont. Throughout the series, Dany has something of a father-daughter relationship with him and she's unwilling to let it go beyond that.

[Bellis]

IMHO, I think Drogo was interested in Dany because she was so different, and Illyrio probably played up her ability to give him The Stallion who Mounts the World. It must have been a prohecy floating about, but we never get the details on the requirement for his arrival.

this is an interesting idea (that the prophecy of the Stallion was floating around). After all it seems the Westerosi and the Asshai have all their savior prophecies, why not the Dothraki? Maybe TSTMTW = Azor Azhai reborn or TPWWP??

as for why Drogo married Dany, i started a thread on this a while back:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=11007&hl=

the last time I was re-reading AGOT.

[Lukas S]

IIRC Dotharki hate people around them and (from the impression I got of them in AGOT) all they do is kill and destroy.

You know, no realistic culture has that attitude. The Dothraki are raiders, but the idea of "Dothraki = inhuman monsters" that often finds it way here is completely implausible. The Dothraki are humans like all others, albeit with a sense of honour and social organization that is quite different from our ideals. Their culture might make them callous, but they do not hate life, other people or anything like that. We expect some psychological realism from other characters, so why this view of Dothraki (or Ironborn, as is often the case) being cartoonishly evil?

[Barba]

You know, no realistic culture has that attitude. The Dothraki are raiders, but the idea of "Dothraki = inhuman monsters" that often finds it way here is completely implausible. The Dothraki are humans like all others, albeit with a sense of honour and social organization that is quite different from our ideals. Their culture might make them callous, but they do not hate life, other people or anything like that. We expect some psychological realism from other characters, so why this view of Dothraki (or Ironborn, as is often the case) being cartoonishly evil?

I wasn't talking about their social organization or honor. They kill and destroy, and that is a fact, no matter how you say it.

- On dany's wedding a dozen of people were killed just to make that happy occasion.

- When they attacked village of Miri Maz Dur, they made hill of human heads.

- They were feasting together one day, and attacking each other tomorrow (after Vaes Dortah)

Don't missunderstand this post. I'm not judging them os their society. I'm just saying that with this kind of people it is little possibility that they will have bethrothal party with all those guests.

[Lukas S]

- On dany's wedding a dozen of people were killed just to make that happy occasion.

- When they attacked village of Miri Maz Dur, they made hill of human heads.

- They were feasting together one day, and attacking each other tomorrow (after Vaes Dortah)

Many cultures have practiced human sacrifice of some sort, and done far worse things than those. Yet they haven't had any problems having otherwise peaceful contact with people. Genghis Khan's Mongol empire would make Khal Drogo's horde look like a bunch of preschoolers on a field trip, and yet he managed to keep a cosmopolitan and cultured court at Karakorum (a bit of alliteration there), where philosophers, artist and the like from all over the world entertained the Khan. I don't find it implausible that those people would be there, without any need for a justification based on the needs of the story.

[Barba]

Many cultures have practiced human sacrifice of some sort, and done far worse things than those. Yet they haven't had any problems having otherwise peaceful contact with people. Genghis Khan's Mongol empire would make Khal Drogo's horde look like a bunch of preschoolers on a field trip, and yet he managed to keep a cosmopolitan and cultured court at Karakorum (a bit of alliteration there), where philosophers, artist and the like from all over the world entertained the Khan. I don't find it implausible that those people would be there, without any need for a justification based on the needs of the story.

Makes sense. But dortaaki don't seem as that kind of people to me

Anyway, what I was saying is: I think that many of those guests will be involved in dany's story in the future. It sounds just like something Martin would write.

[Ealasaid]

Makes sense. But dortaaki don't seem as that kind of people to me

Anyway, what I was saying is: I think that many of those guests will be involved in dany's story in the future. It sounds just like something Martin would write.

The Dothraki seem like the Norsemen of the Plains to me. Sometimes they are Vikings. In the Viking role they pillage and rape, while in the Noresemen role they trade and interact peaceably with others. They will attack anyone who challenges their absolute right to the grasslands.

[Barba]

Daenerys (II)

Introduced: Haggo*, Cohollo*, Qotho* (Khal Drogo’s bloodriders);

Irri, Jhiqui (Dothraki slaves, Dany’s handmaidens);

Doreah* (Lysene slave, also one of Dany’s handmaidens).

Just before Dany’s wedding to Khal Drogo, she dreams of Viserys turning into a dragon. During the wedding, she receives a great many gifts, the most important the 3 dragon eggs given to her by Magister Illyrio. One egg was deep green with bronze flecks, another was cream colored with gold streaks, and the last black with scarlet ripples. Drogo gives her a beautiful white mare, which Dany rides. After the wedding, Drogo treats her gently and Dany’s fear eases and she allows him to touch her.

[DBaron]

I always liked Dothraki chapters, hell, I like almost all of Dany's chapters even if I am ambivalent towards her character. The reason being is that she gets to visit much more exotic and colorful locales than many of the other POVs in this series. Aside from the wedding not alot seems to happen, just some very good descriptions of the wedding feast and the gifts. That and I suspect this chapter is supposed to indicate Dany is beginning her change from a rather scared little girl, into the powerful queen she becomes at the end of ASOS. Dany is depicted as still being frightneded and unsure of herself, but she seems to be getting braver, and finding ways to overcome it. The only part of this chapter that disturbs me is the sex scene at the end. I guess I am too ingrained with modern day norms to be able to be fully comfortable with it. One other thing, I could never picture Dany having silver hair, in fact I don't think I even paid attention to it, until I saw some of amoka's portraits.

On the reread I noticed that one of the gifts was a gown made from a thousand mice skins. I have no idea what to make out of that. Such an odd gift. The dragon eggs gift always make me suspicious of Illyrios intent, why give something so valueable to someone you don't really know?

I suspect Dany's dream about Visery's turning into dragon might be a foreshadowing of her hatching the dragons. Second, when Illyrio tears the wing off the duck after Viserys scolds Jorah, I took that as a symbol of Viserys becoming a lame duck. Lastly, Dany gets an animal just like the Starks do, and she seems to have an immediate bond with it. Her horse is described as grey as the winter sea, with a silver mane while Drogo's is red. Fire and Ice analogy?

Editted to add

The mare is described as grey with a silver mane, not white.

[Tarthking]

On the reread I noticed that one of the gifts was a gown made from a thousand mice skins. I have no idea what to make out of that. Such an odd gift.

And then Illyrio says that its a lucky gift. Why did Martin highlight that? I have no idea either. Maybe to symbolize Dany's future kingdom - she leads a large group of small, frightened people?

I suspect Dany's dream about Visery's turning into dragon might be a foreshadowing of her hatching the dragons.

I interpreted that as Dany getting her period, and therefore being of proper marrying age (at least, in the context of this series). It's not very clear, either way.

Dany gets an animal just like the Starks do, and she seems to have an immediate bond with it. Her horse is described as grey as the winter sea, with a silver mane while Drogo's is red. Fire and Ice analogy?

I think you're right about the fire and ice analogy. It's weird that Dany is sitting on the "ice" horse, while Drogo rides the fire one. Also notice that Dany's horse leaps like it has wings, and Dany says her mare is the wind. Sounds like a pegasus reference to me. Considering that Martin has slowly been introducing other mythological beasts into the series, like gryphons, krakens, and sphinxs, I doubt this was accidental.

Other things: more use of stone as a symbol, this time with the dragon eggs. I'm really starting to think Martin mixes and matches his symbols, much like certain mythological animals are mixes of real animals. Fire + stone = dragon. Ice + stone = Winterfell/Starks. Heart + stone = Catelyn. I think it is probably more complicated than that, but there certainly seems to be a pattern to his imagery.

Viserys and the Lannisters have some similar speech patterns. Both use "sweet sister/ brother" with their siblings. Does anyone else say this in the series?

Also, and this isn't exactly about this chapter, but I just noticed it, in Dany I, Viserys says,

"You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" His fingers twisted her (nipple), the pinch cruellly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. "Do you?" he repeated.

Compare with Tyrion losing his temper at Joffrey in Tyrion I:

Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed.

"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this despperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"

The "Do you?" are italicized in both versions. Are we supposed to draw parallels between the Targaryens and the Lannisters, or is this another of Martin's juxtapositions, this one comparing Viserys with Joffrey? I'm not sure.

[Barba]

The "Do you?" are italicized in both versions. Are we supposed to draw parallels between the Targaryens and the Lannisters, or is this another of Martin's juxtapositions, this one comparing Viserys with Joffrey? I'm not sure.

I think it is connection between Tyrion and Viserys. They are both introduced with small temper to their familly members. In the end their temper caused their downfall