Roddy Darwin Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm sure this has crossed quite a few minds already, but I could not find a thread. As always, apologies if it had already been posted and I missed it. In the Vale section of the World of Ice and Fire, Yandel gives us an interesting tidbit about the Burned Men: Most of the clan names have some meaning, however obscure those meanings might be to us. The Black Ears take the ears of men they defeat in battle as trophies, we know. Amongst the Burned Men, a youth must give some part of his body to the fire to prove his courage before he can be deemed a man. This practice might have originated in the years after the Dance of the Dragons, some maesters believe, when an offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs were said to have worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of the dragon she commanded to prove their manhood. Now, we know from the Princess and the Queen that Nettles left Maidenpool on Sheepstealer's back: High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle. A lot of people take that to mean she headed east - and a lot of speculation has arisen on how she spent the rest of her life in Essos. Some have even suggested Brown Ben Plumm might have yet another drop of dragon blood - brown dragon blood. However, the Bay of Crabs goes on quite inland, and ends to the Northwest of Maidenpool. Looking at a map, I don't think it is implausible that Maester Norren - author of The Chronicles of Maidenpool and likely source for the above details concerning Nettles' departure - would describe her as "turning her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs" if she actually headed North. North of Maidenpool lie the Mountains of the Moon, where she would be very unlikely to be found. We pretty much know of all the dragons that survived the Dance. Sheepstealer is one of the few that could potentially be in the Mountains of the Moon "in the years after the Dance of the Dragons." What I find particularly interesting is that not only does Yandel restrain himself from giving us his usual "but, ah, legends, you know?" routine here, he actually mentions that some maesters believe the tale to be true. Like us, the maesters post-Dance must have had a pretty good idea of exactly who the remaining living dragons were. If some of them actually believed that tale to be true, then they must have known of an actual dragon that could have been there. It almost sounds like Yandel did not go into the details, but the running theory among those maesters explicitly names Nettles as the fire-witch. Nettles living in the Mountains of the Moon with Sheepstealer being a fact that is known by some also perfectly fits Gyldayn's phrasing: she was never seen again "at court or castle". Now, if you'll bear with me for a bit of wild speculation, I think this little theory goes very well with the crackpot that Timett is descended from the Arryn lady who was abducted by the Burned Men, is thus the rightful heir of the Eyrie and the Vale, and will eventually claim that title with Dany and Tyrion's help, thus fulfilling the latter's promise to give the Vale to the wildlings. Tyrion does seem keen on paying his debts, and I am sure I am not the only bothered by that unkept promise and the apparent total lack of relevance to the story it seems to have now.What if Timett not only has some Arryn blood, but a wee bit of dragonblood too? I am not gonna go as far to claim he is one of the original three heads, but hey, dragonriders die. Who doesn't like the idea of a one-eyed sociopathic madman riding a dragon? (Okay, apart from Lucerys Velaryon maybe.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 What I find particularly interesting is that not only does Yandel restrain himself from giving us his usual "but, ah, legends, you know?" routine here, he actually mentions that some maesters believe the tale to be true. Like us, the maesters post-Dance must have had a pretty good idea of exactly who the remaining living dragons were. If some of them actually believed that tale to be true, then they must have known of an actual dragon that could have been there. It almost sounds like Yandel did not go into the details, but the running theory among those maesters explicitly names Nettles as the fire-witch. He also makes it clear that her fate eventually was known ("...and none could say where they went until years after.") So yeah I'd say this is pretty much a lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Nettles probably flew to the Vale and remained there for a time. I think maybe she went to Essos later. I saw a theory that the red waste once was a better place, as in Qarth there are scenarios painted on its triple walls with animals that would be found in jungles rather than in deserts. Maybe a dragon was roaming in there. And I wonder if Nettles made it to Asshai eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 ^My theory since reading TPATQ is that Sheepstealer is the dragon that 1 of Danys bloodriders finds in the red waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The dragon remains in the Red Waste could easily remnants from some wars the Valyrians fought their ages ago, probably with some Ghiscari colonies, the Qaathi, or perhaps even some Yi Tish armies - we know that Yi Ti once ruled Great Moraq and subdued Qarth, the Yi Tish could have made advances beyond into the lands west of the Red Waste. The idea that any Targaryen dragon from Westeros ended in the Red Waste makes little sense to me. All we know about Nettles and Sheepstealer suggests that they lived and eventually died in Westeros. Else nobody could claim that the last living dragon died in 153 AC, as I don't think any accounts about Sheepstealer's end in the Red Waste would ever have reached Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the reason people tend to think it's a more recent dragon is because dragonbone is supposed to be incredibly valuable and rare. So why leave this skeleton sitting there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSovereignGrave Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the reason people tend to think it's a more recent dragon is because dragonbone is supposed to be incredibly valuable and rare. So why leave this skeleton sitting there? I don't think the Red Waste is really inhabited by anyone, is it? I've never even heard mention of nomads of any sort living there. And I don't imagine it's a common place for traders to cross. So maybe nobody had ever seen it. Or anyone who had seen it had more important things on their mind, such as not dying of thirst or hunger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 What RumHam said is part of my reasoning on it, I also I see no reason for her to have died in Westeros, if so why do the burned men not have dragonbone? Not even jewelry is mentioned let alone a dagger or bow? Also, if they knew where she was, doesn't it stand to reason that someone would have gone after her? It doesn't make sense to me that the dragon would be from before the Doom, we are told of a dragonlord who married a king in Yi TI, but that is one time and if the dragon died in Yi Ti the skeleton would have been used there. We are not told of any Valyrian conflicts against Qarth, in fact we are told Qarth moved in after the Doom and it is doubtful to me that if there was a conflict in the area involving dragons that the Valyrians would have just left a dragon lying there for anyone to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If something disappears in the desert, you may not be able to find it all that easily. More importantly, before the Doom dragonbone may have neither been rare not particularly valuable. As to why the Burned Men don't have dragonbone: They may be too uneducated to know that dragonbone makes the best bows in the world, nor do they have to know that it in itself is valuable. Nettles did not seem to live with the Burned Men. She lived up there in the mountains, and some clansmen, which eventually formed the Burned Men, came to her and sent there youths to her. This does not mean that they had access to Sheepstealer's carcass, or even buried Nettles' body after her death. I'd not be surprised if Nettles and Sheepstealer both were killed eventually by (other) clansmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I can see your not going to come around to this, but just consider the fact that at the end of the Dance there are 2 large unaccounted for dragons who's fate we have not yet learned, and randomly we are told of a large dragon skeleton that has not effected the plot in any way. I have definitely seem worse theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Well, no idea why the Cannibal should have flown riderless into the Red Waste of all places - this region is remarkable closer to the Lands of the Long Summer than Westeros, and thus it is much more likely that any dragon remains came from Valyria rather than Westeros. The Cannibal could actually still be alive, in stasis or hibernation somewhere on Dragonstone. I'm not sure why a riderless dragon should suddenly go anywhere, thus this whole 'disappearance thing' seems to be just a conclusion people stated to believing after the Cannibal did no longer show up outside his lair (or could not be found inside, if anyone ever dared to look for him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I'm not suggesting its cannibal I'm suggesting that when Nettles location was found out she fled Westeros. Since we are told Cannibal may have been alive before the Targs even came to Dragonstone that would make him really old, he probably died of old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I have no firm position on it, but I would think it rather neat if Daenerys dragon skeleton actually belonged to Sheepstealer or the Cannibal. Eventhough I would bet that he didn't plan that from the beginning, it would add even more depth to GRRM's story. However I do see the problems with the location of the skeleton. It's very far from Westeros and it seems unlikely that the maesters could say anything with certainty about the faith of Nettles if it landed there. But who knows what he can reveal in Fire and Blood. Perhaps an expedition was sent to the Red Waste by a future Targaryen looking for adult dragons or something of the sort. I do think we can rule out that Nettles died out while fighting other Mountain Clans. I think it more likely that after her stay in the Vale she went somewhere else. The maesters knew what eventually happened to her, but her stay with the burned men was only believed to be true by some maesters (plus her name wasn't mentioned). Who knows what might have happened to her, perhaps she was sought out to kill the Cannibal, if the latter proved to be a menace in the reign of Aegon III? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Also Timett having dragonblood seems out of the question to me. I don't think Nettles would have left a child behind there when she finally moved on. I think the inclusion of this particular tidbit (beside given the Burned Men a cool origin story) has more to do with giving an explanation as to why the Burned Men (who seem to grow quickly in power under Timett) would become quite zealous followers of Daenerys. The Arryn blood of Timett could become important, but only if his mother is still alive. I don't think the Vale Lords would believe him otherwise, but they couldn't refute the testimony of his Waynwood mother. I would also not be as quick to dismiss SR. His faith hasn't been sealed just yet. And even if SR is alive, Timett's Arryn blood could serve as a bridge between the Lords of the Vale and the men of the Mountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Actually, my guess is that Nettles stayed and died in the Mountains of the Moon. That's a very remote place in any case, and the regents would have been occupied with in-fighting and the long winter. I very much doubt any rumors about this dragon-witch girl up there even reached court in those days. And afterwards, well, no one would really have had any reason to search out Nettles unless she did make any trouble. In fact, Gyldayn and Yandel seem to know what became of her, but this does not mean that they knew first or second hand. Rather by putting stuff from various sources together. Say, rumors about the fire-witch in the Mountains of the Moon combined with their historical knowledge about the Dance and its aftermath led to the conclusion that Nettles was that fire-witch. Now, nothing suggests that Nettles ever moved on/left the mountains alive, and Gyldayn is very specific about the fact that Nettles was never again seen at court or castle. That rules out any involvement of her and Sheepstealer in the bigger affairs of the Realm. It is also possible that Nettles predeceased Sheepstealer, who then became a wild dragon was eventually slain - prior to 153 AC - by some other clansmen or the knights from the Vale. And the Cannibal apparently never showed up again after he disappeared at the end of the Dance. If he did show up again we would have heard about him again, I imagine. Just as pretty much anything we know suggests that Silverwing was died as a wild dragon at Red Lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragons Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well, no idea why the Cannibal should have flown riderless into the Red Waste of all places - this region is remarkable closer to the Lands of the Long Summer than Westeros, and thus it is much more likely that any dragon remains came from Valyria rather than Westeros. The Cannibal could actually still be alive, in stasis or hibernation somewhere on Dragonstone. I'm not sure why a riderless dragon should suddenly go anywhere, thus this whole 'disappearance thing' seems to be just a conclusion people stated to believing after the Cannibal did no longer show up outside his lair (or could not be found inside, if anyone ever dared to look for him). There is NO way Cannibal is still alive the oldest dragon live to 200 years no Cannibal is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragons Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I believe she went to east and build her own kingdom but she died so did her kingdon fell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The silver dragon Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 There is NO way Cannibal is still alive the oldest dragon live to 200 years no Cannibal is dead. nope. Balerion was older than 200 hundreds years old when he died. (at least ten years older. at most? who knows) and there is also the fact that for the later part of his life balerion was kept in the dragon pit. reducing his life span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 There's a couple places, notably in the section about the Hightower fort, where it says that dragon skeletons have been found all over the world. In ancient times, they were everywhere. I like the whole Nettles / fire witch story, and the angle on Timmet and potentially bringing the clans into play in the Vale (remember we are about to get a bunch of Sansa / Littlefinger intrigue in the vale, so that could be relevant. Plus, a Lannister always pays his debts. Tyrion has to take the vale with them clans, right? And yes, they'd like Dany wouldn't they?The story may be giving us info about how the Valyrians may have risen from shepherds to dragon lords. Nettles seems to have won over Sheepstealer by feeding him every day - that's how you take a wild animal in real life. She ended up being worshipped by a local group. That could def be the origin of the Valyrians rise to power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon Blackfyre IV Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Nettles would have no reason to hide once Aegon III took the throne ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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