Harrold Hardyng or Harrold Arryn?

[Good Guy Garlan]

On another thread we were discussing the position of the Houses at the end of aDwD. I said that the main branch of House Arryn is in danger of being extinct if Sweetrobin dies, namely because he'll be succeeded by Harry the Heir, and therefore House Hardyng, not Arryn, would be the new ruling House of the Vale

However, some fellow posters argue that Harry wouldn't get the support of the lords of the Vale unless he changes his name to Arryn. I find some troubles with this.

First, I don't think it should be legal or whatever to demand the lord of X place to change his name in exchange for his subject's support. Like, he's the lord, he has the best claim, he should be demanding fealty from his bannermen not caving in to their demands. Of course, it would be, I don't know, neater if an actual Arryn would end up as lord, but what if that's not the way things happened? Harry is Sweetrobin's heir, regardless of his name. He's still an Arryn on his mother's (mother) side, but an Arryn nonetheless, only with a different name

So I present this hypothetical situation: Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Jon (for good measure) all die. Let's say they slip on some ice and fall on top of each other or something. So Arya is the heiress to Winterfell. But oh oh, she's married to Cley Cerwyn. They have a kid eventually, with the last name Cerwyn, obviously. And this kid is eventually named lord of Winterfell. Does he have to change his name to Stark in order to rule, even if he's proud of being a Cerwyn? What do you think?

[James Arryn]

Fealty isn't an obligation. It's one side of a balancing act. Having 'the best claim' means exactly nothing if you don't have enough barons supporting you. The principle reason barons will support you as Lord of the Vale is traditional investment in House Arryn dating back thousands of years. To throw that away on a whim would probably be a very questionable first move in your Excercise in feudal leadership, especially when there are many other Arryns people might support in your stead should the opportunity/need arise.

[Bryanfury]

More legitimacy to take on the current ruling House name than introduce a new House name imo. Probaby how half the old Houses survived thousands of years in the first place.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think that this happens quite often when a title passes through a female line. Even taking the stark example, it's statistically impossible for a single unbroken male line to continue for 5000 years or whatever so it already has happened, some were along the way.

For your example, yes I think a kid of sansa and Tyrion, or Arya and a cerwyn would indeed take the name of stark. Arya or sansa would be the heirs in their own right - and the men their consorts - if they were royalty. I don't see why the lordships paramount would follow differnt rules.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Ser Joffrey Lydden married the only child of a Lannister king and changed his surname to Lannister. He wasn't even related to the Lannisters by blood. Harry will change his name to Arryn. The only examples we have of people not changing their name is the Tyrells and Orys Baratheon, and that's only because of dragons.

[Gneisenau]

When the Austrian Hapsburgs died out, the house of Lorraine succeeded them, and changed their name to Hapsburg-Lorraine, so yeah it makes sense that Harrold becomes an Arryn.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I get what you're saying, and of course, it would be the easiest thing in the world to change his name to Arryn, for everyone's comfort

But my point is that regardless of catering to the desires of the bannermen and regardless of what is considered a sound strategy, Harry is not obliged to change his name. Like, he's the lawful, actual heir in the event of Sweetrobin's death, whether his bannermen recognize him as such or not. And say, the Iron Throne could even name those who oppose Harry traitors for rebelling against their lord. Right?

[Maester Drew]

Blood should count, not the name! For crying out loud the lords should know that Harry has Arryn blood, he is a descendant and a legitimate heir, changing his name is redundant.

[Boarsbane]

Ancient line of kings who have ruled the Vale for thousands of years or knightly house with an overlord. I don't know if the bannermen would be petty enough to force him to change but I don't think it'll be an issue because taking the Arryn name is a no brainer.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As I understand it, the family name goes with the inheritance. So if a daughter is the sole heir and becomes the lady of whatever castle, then her children would take her name and that's how the family line continues. We know that during Rhaenyra Targaryen's time, Jeyne Arryn was the Lady of the Eyrie in her own right. She obviously didn't have any brothers, or else they would have been the lord and not her. I suppose it's possible that she had no children and the line passed to a male cousin. But in all likelihood the Eyrie passed down to one of Jeyne's children, and she passed down the name to them.

Many of these houses are hundreds, even thousands of years old. Unless every single one of them has remained completely unbroken in the male line for that entire period, the names were at some point (and probably multiple points) passed on through the female line.

As for Harry not having to change his name to Arryn, I suppose it's true that he doesn't have to. But why wouldn't he, when that is the name associated with the castle, its titles, taxes, property, etc.?

[Bryanfury]

And to add to what has been said, surely it would be an honour of amazing proportions to be made an official member of a house like House Arryn? Why even consider turning it down?

[Gertrude]

I would also assume there is not law requiring him to change his name, but tradition, prestige, etc blah blah.

Also, it's respectful. Harry doesn't have the right to the Vale through his Hardyng blood, but through the Arryn side.

[James Arryn]

I get what you're saying, and of course, it would be the easiest thing in the world to change his name to Arryn, for everyone's comfort

But my point is that regardless of catering to the desires of the bannermen and regardless of what is considered a sound strategy, Harry is not obliged to change his name. Like, he's the lawful, actual heir in the event of Sweetrobin's death, whether his bannermen recognize him as such or not. And say, the Iron Throne could even name those who oppose Harry traitors for rebelling against their lord. Right?

I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the whys and hows of feudal government, but I concede it might be technically possible for Harry to change the dynastic name for so long as he holds power.

[lidsa]

Since Harry's claim comes from his Arryn grandmother, he should be equally proud to take the name Arryn, no?

[Lion of the West]

So I present this hypothetical situation: Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Jon (for good measure) all die. Let's say they slip on some ice and fall on top of each other or something. So Arya is the heiress to Winterfell. But oh oh, she's married to Cley Cerwyn. They have a kid eventually, with the last name Cerwyn, obviously. And this kid is eventually named lord of Winterfell. Does he have to change his name to Stark in order to rule, even if he's proud of being a Cerwyn? What do you think?

I think it will depend very much on the individual. If he totally hates his mother's House then he may stick with his father's name.

But in this specific scenario I think that Arya's son will take the name Stark, and likely Cley will do as well upon marrying her, since they would be the lawful possessors of both Winterfell and Cerwyn Castle and Winterfell and Stark are by far the more prestigious seat and name. If the son held the name Cerwyn during his upbringing then I would think that everyone would expect him to carry on that name also after inheriting Winterfell from his mother. Or if they have more than one son I would think that the first son takes the name Stark and gets Wintefell and the second takes the name Cerwyn and get Cerwyn Castle and so continue both lines.

In regards to Harry the Heir I really hope that he'll become the next Young Falcon but if he remains a Hardyng then I'll hope that he'll prove a worthy inheritor to the Arryn legacy.

[Mithras]

Ser Joffrey Lydden married the only child of a Lannister king and changed his surname to Lannister. He wasn't even related to the Lannisters by blood. Harry will change his name to Arryn. The only examples we have of people not changing their name is the Tyrells and Orys Baratheon, and that's only because of dragons.

Like the Lannisters changed their name to Casterly? Wait...

[Mithras]

Casterly Rock, Lord Harroway's Town, Mander, Harrenhal, Highgarden.

Do I miss anything?

[Bryanfury]

Casterly Rock, Lord Harroway's Town, Mander, Harrenhal, Highgarden.

Do I miss anything?

You missed the part where we're talking about taking on House names when marrying into the remaining female line (or descending from it), and not about the cities and castles that have transitioned between families without name changes. Each and every single one you listed was taken away from the original family by force and ended up in another family's possession. That's so different to the Hardyng situation that I have to question why you'd bring this crap up in the first place

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Like the Lannisters changed their name to Casterly? Wait...

That goes so far back that we don't even know if House names were important back then, or if the concepts of Houses was even around. That the Westerosi historians have to speculate on what happened should tell you the how far back it is.

k

[Mithras]

You missed the part where we're talking about taking on House names when marrying into the remaining female line (or descending from it), and not about the cities and castles that have transitioned between families without name changes. Each and every single one you listed was taken away from the original family by force and ended up in another family's possession. That's so different to the Hardyng situation that I have to question why you'd bring this crap up in the first place

Lann didn’t take Casterly Rock by force. It is implied that he married/impregnated the last female Casterly. He also didn’t take the surname Lannister. It was his descendants many generations later took the name Lannister and styled themselves kings. Up to this day, it is still called the Casterly Rock.

And House Hardyng is not House Arryn, it is just another House.

There is absolutely no reason for Harold to change his surname to Arryn if SR dies and if the Vale Lords agree to give the Eyrie to him. By law, having the best claim by blood, the Eyrie should belong to him.

“What your father said, that’s well and good,” said Dunk, “but it doesn’t give you the right to take Osgrey water.”

She tugged her braid. “I suppose Ser Eustace told you that the stream was his.”

“For a thousand years,” said Dunk. “It’s named the Chequy Water. That’s plain.”

“So it is.” She tugged again; once, twice, thrice. “As the river is called the Mander, though the Manderlys were driven from its banks a thousand years ago. Highgarden is still Highgarden, though the last Gardener died on the Field of Fire. Casterly Rock teems with Lannisters, and nowhere a Casterly to be found. The world changes, ser. This Chequy Water rises in the Horseshoe Hills, which were wholly mine when last I looked. The water is mine as well. Maester Cerrick, show him.”