Waterstones: HarperCollinsUK Letter

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

My impression is that many elements of DraftArya ended up with CurrentSansa rather than with CurrentArya. This comes from the fact that she now bears almost no resemblance to her original role, that we can tell.

It is also important to remember we are only seeing an outline for the first book in the trilogy. We still don't know what GRRM had planned for the second and third books beyond the very basics (e.g. A Dance With Dragons was going to be about Dany's landing and The Winds of Winter about the Others). With that in mind, I wouldn't be so quick to claim storylines like Aegon's are recent inventions in their entirety.

It's actually kind of worrying to think that we've barely dipped our toes in content from the second third of the story even though we're five books out of seven through.

Do we find any character for Arya in these pages? Arya loves Jon but feels icky because its her brother, goes North with Bran, is horrified when Jon turns them away from the wall and embraces his vows of chasity, she fights others, gets it on with Jon eventually. Tyrion is in love with her. Well Arya loves Jon most of all her siblings but doesn't connect sexually as she is young, instead of journeying North she goes with Gendry and Hotpie through the Riverlands, is horrified when Gendry decides to stay with the brotherhood where he will be 'kissing no princesses', has a sojourn in Braavos, may come back to fight others, may get it on with Jon and/or Gendry in the future. She has never met Tyrion.

[~DarkHorse~]

Not Ned's son =/= R+L=J

Using the first draft alone, then no, you can't determine that "Not Ned's son" means R+L=J. However, when you add it with all the evidence from the books, then it is pretty clear that his 'parentage' is R+L=J.

This was the plan for Jon along, I can't see GRRM having changed it from B+A=J to R+L=J. Can you?

People are being so picky here.

[James Arryn]

1. She needs no redemption.

2. She most likely had no chapters at this point. I suspect that once he actually started writing her POV he decided he didn't want to put her through that and changed her story so she did not have to choose between Joffrey and her family.

...except when she did?

[LordStoneheart]

You two are failing to realize, that these are not the same stories, with completely different characters. Rhaegar and Lyanna are never once mentioned, nor is any of the other stuff from the actual books. So having seen the original outline, it's impossible to say that R+L=J is true/confirmed, when you have no idea if they were ever even in the original story.

The only people trying to "believe what they want", are the people trying to write the story themselves here. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not mentioned as being in the outline, so you cannot say that they are Jon's parents as there's no proof that they even exist.

They don't need to be mentioned to exist in the early draft. I think you're failing to realize... well, a lot, really.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

First off. I don't care if this is a leak, a "leak", a forgery, a drunk letter GRRM sent, or gospel. It's something new that we can talk about on here and I love it. Gives us a whole new way of seeing his original plan and where it's taken us. That being said, I don't understand the concern over certain characters not being mentioned. He added them when he realized he needed more characters and more depth for 7 books as opposed to 3.

Random conspiracy theory:

Maybe this has been "leaked" because D&D plan to use some of these lost plot points in the next season.

I'm thinking the Others attacking the wildlings north of the wall part certainly sounds like something which is going to be in season 5.

This is an interesting thought.

I just hope that Sansa has been promoted to the "big 6" and that GRRM doesn't still consider it a big 5 :bawl:

I think it's more of the Big 5, then the Next 5 (Sansa, Stannis, Jaime, Cersei, Theon)

[markg171]

Because they'd be cousins, just like their grandparents were. I doubt Jon and Arya would look so much alike if they weren't related.

So Jon looks like a Ned 2.0 because there are not related at all? Whoa!

Eh, ninja'd all the time.

You have no idea if in this story, Jon even looks like a Stark. You're making the story up yourself based off what the books came to be, not what they were. We don't know what he looked like in the original draft.

Just because they're not mentioned in the draft doesn't mean they're not characters :| I'm pretty sure GRRM didn't initially decide to make a story with only the 15 characters mentioned in the draft, there are several other original characters that weren't mentioned as they don't contribute to the main plot in the present.

But that's the point. Lots of characters aren't mentioned that came to exist. You can't just pick and choose which ones must obviously exist in the original, as that's only catering to your theory.

There's nothing suggesting Rhaegar or Lyanna ever existed in this story.

[LordStoneheart]

...except when she did?

Did what? Choose Joffrey over her family? She didn't. She tried to choose both and realized the hard way that she couldn't. The draft suggests a much more cold decision to turn her back on her family, and that wasn't what happened.

[WeaselPie]

Because they'd be cousins, just like their grandparents were. I doubt Jon and Arya would look so much alike if they weren't related.

Or they aren't related. In the least. Plenty of chararacters in the books resemble unrelated characters.

I imagine GRRM thinking this out. "This poor couple, in love but they think they're half-siblings. But in the end, they are only cousins, which makes it all better."

Then I imagine there is no way he would think that way, especially as the denouement of the entire Jon Snow story.

Such a tiny thing... half-sibling to cousin... in a book where incestuous polygamy and more is practiced by characters both reviled and admired. And he planned that tiny little thing as the resolution of his major romantic arc?

[~DarkHorse~]

First off. I don't care if this is a leak, a "leak", a forgery, a drunk letter GRRM sent, or gospel. It's something new that we can talk about on here and I love it. Gives us a whole new way of seeing his original plan and where it's taken us. That being said, I don't understand the concern over certain characters not being mentioned. He added them when he realized he needed more characters and more depth for 7 books as opposed to 3.

This is an interesting thought.

I think it's more of the Big 5, then the Next 5 (Sansa, Stannis, Jaime, Cersei, Theon)

:agree: Yes, Jaime and Cersei seem just as important to me as Sansa.

[Gwydden]

You two are failing to realize, that these are not the same stories, with completely different characters. Rhaegar and Lyanna are never once mentioned, nor is any of the other stuff from the actual books. So having seen the original outline, it's impossible to say that R+L=J is true/confirmed, when you have no idea if they were ever even in the original story.

The only people trying to "believe what they want", are the people trying to write the story themselves here. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not mentioned as being in the outline, so you cannot say that they are Jon's parents as there's no proof that they even exist.

The logic sequence goes something like this:

1. The draft pretty much states Ned was not initially meant to be Jon's father.

The current story also seems to heavily suggest that.

Ergo, we have even more evidence that Ned isn't Jon's father.

The only other significant candidate so far is Rhaegar, ergo R+L=J is true.

It's got nothing to do with the draft supporting R+L=J directly.

[LordStoneheart]

Or they aren't related. In the least. Plenty of chararacters in the books resemble unrelated characters.

But they are directly compared to each other more than once.

And it's not as is asoiaf was GRRM's first instance of incest in his writing. To quote a story of his that predates even this letter: "Vice is nice but incest is best. Families who play together stay together."

[markg171]

They don't need to be mentioned to exist in the early draft. I think you're failing to realize... well, a lot, really.

Superman isn't mentioned as being in the draft. There's no reason he can't be in the story then, no?

If it's not mentioned, you're just making up your own story.

[oierem]

It's crazy how the titles of the books no longer correspond to the actual content they were meant to have (not because the content changed, but because it's been delayed). Dance with Dragons was about Dany's invasion and Winds was about the big conflict with the Others. This was still true when he decided to add a bridge novel, Feast for Crows, which originally was meant to cover every POV character.

Now Dance is out and Dany's invasion has been pushed back to Winds... but to the later part of the book, since the first half still has to deal with a lot of things! So, the book which was meant to be about the Others is not about 1) resolving the conflicts arising from the bridge novels and 2) the story that was meant ot be covered in Dance with Dragons.

Crazy.

[lojzelote]

You two are failing to realize, that these are not the same stories, with completely different characters. Rhaegar and Lyanna are never once mentioned, nor is any of the other stuff from the actual books. So having seen the original outline, it's impossible to say that R+L=J is true/confirmed, when you have no idea if they were ever even in the original story.

The only people trying to "believe what they want", are the people trying to write the story themselves here. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not mentioned as being in the outline, so you cannot say that they are Jon's parents as there's no proof that they even exist.

Well, vast majority of characters existing in the published books is not mentioned. This was only a rough outline of the plot.

Of course, R+L=J is not confirmed. It won't be confirmed until the idea appears in the published novel and there is a proof for it.

So far it's a theory that a vast majority of the fandom believes (if westeros.org and Reddit is anything to go by), which there is a great many clues for, which makes perfect sense story-wise and which has been strengthened yet again because the 1993 draft reveals that Jon was not meant be Ned's son.

[Cas Stark]

It's crazy how the titles of the books no longer correspond to the actual content they were meant to have (not because the content changed, but because it's been delayed). Dance with Dragons was about Dany's invasion and Winds was about the big conflict with the Others. This was still true when he decided to add a bridge novel, Feast for Crows, which originally was meant to cover every POV character.

Now Dance is out and Dany's invasion has been pushed back to Winds... but to the later part of the book, since the first half still has to deal with a lot of things! So, the book which was meant to be about the Others is not about 1) resolving the conflicts arising from the bridge novels and 2) the story that was meant ot be covered in Dance with Dragons.

Crazy.

Yes. It's crazy and sad.

[LordStoneheart]

Superman isn't mentioned as being in the draft. There's no reason he can't be in the story then, no?

If it's not mentioned, you're just making up your own story.

Now you're just being ridiculous

GRRM had to have had his Targaryen history partly mapped out at this point since he has said dragons weren't originally part of the story. If Daenerys was exiled and making her way back and Robert was king, Aerys had to exist.

But nah, if we're going by your logic I guess that means anyone not specifically named in this outline is real. Blackwater never happened. The Meereenese Knot doesn't exist.

New thought: Tywin wasn't mentioned, was he? That means Jaime and Tyrion must be the sons of Aerys and Joanna! Cersei wasn't mentioned so she probably didn't exist. Joffrey's mother is Jaime and Robert was married to him but Tyrion is the father. But wait, Aerys and Joanna weren't mentioned either. So who are Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey's parents?????????

[Colonel Green]

I guess this is pretty much dead now, although in hindsight it is interesting to see that Tyrion never interacted with Arya in AGoT. Was that a conscious decision to hide Tyrion's blossoming romantic interest?

I suspect most of this outline was long-irrelevant by the time AGOT was published. The differences between the characters are already enormous.

I think it's more of the Big 5, then the Next 5 (Sansa, Stannis, Jaime, Cersei, Theon)

Sansa has had more or equal POV chapters to Bran's in every novel published so far except the first one (where he had 7 to her 6; incidentally, it's kind of hilarious that Arya had only 5 chapters in AGOT, considering what happened later). Her character is one of the areas of the original plan that clearly grew considerably by the time AGOT was published (a lot of the prominent early missing elements, like Littlefinger, are heavily bound up in her narrative).

[Ser Not Appearing]

You should have expected us

I did. The Spanish Inquisition you are not.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

But again, neither Rhaegar or Lyanna are ever mentioned. So you can't just suddenly ship them together, when they're not even characters in this story.

Dude, it's a pitch. It doesn't have absolutely everything. If it did, it would be thousands of pages long.

[Barr1stanTheBold]

Superman isn't mentioned as being in the draft. There's no reason he can't be in the story then, no?

If it's not mentioned, you're just making up your own story.

I think you've must have doubted R+L=J all along and at this point you are stretching wwaayy to far.

From what has been PUBLISHED and what we've READ is that R and L are the only plausible parents for J. No other characters are possibilities.

Just because they aren't in outline doesn't mean that they aren't real. Maybe all along GRRM wanted for Jon's parents to be Ned's sister and a Targ but hadn't named them yet? That's not hard to fathom with the actual facts we have from the book