The true purpose of R+L=J in the story.

[khal drogon]

see i could see it being both if R+L=j. i could see so kind of weird ability opens up to only those who have both bloodlines and i could see it being a political you "are the only one who can do this sort of thing"

So in this world, does this weird ability can prove anything? So his secret parentage is meant to give him some weird ability?

[239JMFL34109]

So in this world, does this weird ability can prove anything? So his secret parentage is meant to give him some weird ability?

i don't get what you mean by "can prove anything?" what do you mean?

also bloodraven is of a similar lineage as dad was a targ and his mother was of the line of first men who still worshipped the old gods. that guy is crazy powerful and we still don't know what else he can really do.

[239JMFL34109]

All kings claimed to rule by gods' grace. But none since the god-emperor really had it. And ruling by the clout, like Robert did is no better. Only Jon, the son/song of Ice and Fire, like the god-emperor was the son of Night and Light, may have it.

It is what Jon IS that matter (Ice & Fire), not that he is the legitimate Targaryen heir by R+L=J. Being Targaryen or Baratheon or Stark is irrelevant.

i agree on that last part so much.

[khal drogon]

i don't get what you mean by "can prove anything?" what do you mean?

also bloodraven is of a similar lineage as dad was a targ and his mother was of the line of first men who still worshipped the old gods. that guy is crazy powerful and we still don't know what else he can really do.

What I am saying is his ability to both warg and ride a dragon (If he rides one) is not the point of R+L=J. Also this ability can't prove his parentage either.

Also if R+L=J is meant to make him some prophetic hero, it can still work out if he is a bastard. But by the way the text hints at his legitimacy, I think it will matter more politically .

[239JMFL34109]

What I am saying is his ability to both warg and ride a dragon (If he rides one) is not the point of R+L=J. Also this ability can't prove his parentage either.

Also if R+L=J is meant to make him some prophetic hero, it can still work out if he is a bastard. But by the way the text hints at his legitimacy, I think it will matter more politically .

i think warging a dragon would prove his parentage to the readers but not anyone in universe. Again i see it that his legitimacy being the ironic twist where the go who "rightfully" should be the king is the one who ends kings in westeros or something like that.

[sj4iy]

Yes I might be wrong. But has Jon ridden any dragon yet? I have no reasons to believe he can ride one.

So all his secret parentage is meant for it so that he can both warg and ride a dragon? I don't think his parentage will make him some prophetic hero. But it could matter politically.

Those with Valyrian blood have the potential to ride dragons. That doesn't mean they will, but they have the potential.

I don't know why anyone would say "Well, there's no reason to believe that" when there are two dragons without riders. Jon is one of the few people who have the potential to ride one.

Believe what you want, but the story is obviously pointing to other things.

[khal drogon]

Has potential doesn't mean he will.

So do you think the whole purpose of R+L=J is to get him ride a dragon?

[sj4iy]

Has potential doesn't mean he will.

Which is why I used the word "potential" in the first place. I never stated it was a certainty.

So do you think the whole purpose of R+L=J is to get him ride a dragon?

No, I never once said it was the purpose of Jon having Targ-Stark blood. Riding a dragon isn't the end-all, be-all of anything. He still has to fight. He still has to beat the Others.

R+L=J is the scaffolding of the story. Everything is built upon it. Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions started a domino effect that changed Westeros, leading to the collapse of the Targaryen dynasty and setting the stage for a weakened Westeros- one that is unprepared for an invasion of the dead. Jon is their son for a reason- Rhaegar thought he was the one who would help defeat them and save humanity- instead, it will be his son by Lyanna Stark.

Riding a dragon doesn't accomplish that. But being a warrior, a leader, and a possible king of men with the experience to fight these creatures does. Any weapon at his disposal, whether it be Ghost, Lightbringer, the NW, and Army or a dragon means nothing by itself.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I believe that is his "kill the boy and let the man be born." journey. From his loving father and the question mark to the harsh truth.

[BalerionTheCat]

Has potential doesn't mean he will.

So do you think the whole purpose of R+L=J is to get him ride a dragon?

The purpose of everything is to survive the Long Night.

As far as we know, there were no dragons in the AA legend. Or were they so common that no one bother to mention them? The 3 heads are something specific to the Targaryen. It is their sigil. Rhaegar was saying "The dragon has three heads". But there were no real dragons in his time, and he was clearly referring to his children. And apparently he didn't try, like his ancestors, to revive dragons. Dragons are obviously a weapon of choice against the Other. But they are certainly vulnerable also against Ice.

We don't know how essential exactly the dragons will be against the Other and how they connect with the AAR prophecy. But I would not do a fix on them. Particularly on the concept of riding one. Besides, they died rather easily in the Dance. Jon will not need to ride one to evidence he is AAR.

[Hos the Hostage]

OP: making Arya and Jon cousins instead of siblings merely so that they can marry without opposition from faith of Seven sounds a bit lame to me, but many fans are okay with Jon/Arya, idk why. I am in fact not so repulsive towards Jon/Sansa because there was no real sibling love between them. I am not sure what is really criminal about incest, except the genetic diseases that could be passed on to the offspring. Westerosi people do not know about genetics, anyway(wildlings seems to know better). Of course it affects the brother sister relationship, but you don't choose who you love.

Not that I support incest, but if two people love each other, why should blood relation and standard of ethics stand in their way if they are not hurting anyone else?

R+L=J is there because of so many reasons.

If Jon is to be a major hero, he gets FM blood helps him to warg and dragon blood that helps him to ride dragons. And he is best position to save Westeros from Others. Only a dragon is missing. That is the magic element and the extra power to hero, like Hallows for Harry Potter.

Narratively, we have a hidden hero, which is never so boring, at least to me.

But what I like about R+L=J is it also gives us a whole new perspective of several important characters, and events. (Like the climax of a Nolan movie. )

Eg: Jaime says Ned was more faithful to Robert than Catelyn, and if Jon is Rhaegar's son, its the opposite. It makes us see Ned as a different person than what he first appears.

[haramune]

Well in a lot of works of high fantasy there is often a lowly farmer, a humble baker, a shy maid/cleaner who end up saving the world and then turn out to be the last descendant of some royal family or other, I think if R+L=J is true, then GRRM will twist it. Mercilessly.

[sj4iy]

Well in a lot of works of high fantasy there is often a lowly farmer, a humble baker, a shy maid/cleaner who end up saving the world and then turn out to be the last descendant of some royal family or other, I think if R+L=J is true, then GRRM will twist it. Mercilessly.

He's already twisted it. Jon is believed to be a bastard, but he wasn't mistreated. He was given a noble education and training. He was actually quite spoiled in book 1, and had to be knocked down a peg. It's also already twisted in that those stories always start off with the lowly farmer or humble baker learning who they are and then struggling to live up to it. In Martin's story, Jon has had to grow and prove himself without knowing who he is. He was offered what he always wanted (to be Lord of Winterfell) and refused it. But he is respected and has earned everything without knowing what his 'destiny' is.

[Danilo Sanches]

Well in a lot of works of high fantasy there is often a lowly farmer, a humble baker, a shy maid/cleaner who end up saving the world and then turn out to be the last descendant of some royal family or other, I think if R+L=J is true, then GRRM will twist it. Mercilessly.

If Martin's sole purpose in writing ASoIaF is to subvert fantasy tropes than probably the white walkers will win in the end.

[IceFire125]

Narratively, we have a hidden hero, which is never so boring, at least to me.

But what I like about R+L=J is it also gives us a whole new perspective of several important characters, and events. (Like the climax of a Nolan movie. )

Eg: Jaime says Ned was more faithful to Robert than Catelyn, and if Jon is Rhaegar's son, its the opposite. It makes us see Ned as a different person than what he first appears.

Absolutely! Consider, the subject of lying to protect, when Ned and Arya had their deep heart to heart talk in Arya's room. His words after the ellipse here was quite a revealing.

“I hate them,” Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. “The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn’t the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her.”

“We all lie,” her father said. “Or did you truly think I’d believe that Nymeria ran off?”

Arya blushed guiltily. “Jory promised not to tell.”

“Jory kept his word,” her father said with a smile. “There are some things I do not need to be told. Even a blind man could see that wolf would never have left you willingly.”

Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ’shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was … not without honor.”

The fear and thoughts were much more intense when he confronted Cersei. And at this moment he was most honest with himself. Jon was not included in his list of children, but his name appeared to be the subject of that very comparison. That if Catelyn were to choose, he knew she would not hesitate to give Jon away to be killed when pitted against her children.

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Which is why we have this thoughts from him...

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

Ned lived the lie for 14 years, we learn that Jon was 14 at the beginning of the series. And GRRM made sure to give us that hint in Jon's first chapter.

His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

To bring the blood of Stark and Targaryen together. When looking at each of the family's histories, it really makes Jon a unique combination that will probably make a big difference when fighting the Others.

I like this concept, I think it is symbolic.

I'm just going to make a list.

1. The song of the Prince That Was Promised is supposedly "the song of ice and fire." Jon is half Stark, half Targaryen. Half ice, half fire. Ice and fire.

2. If the sole purpose of R+L=J was so that Jon and Arya could safely bone down the line, why didn't R+L=J fall by the wayside when the Jon/Arya romance did?

3. I don't think Jon (or anyone, really) is going to sit on the Iron Throne in the end. I think that Jon will be, for practical purposes, a figurehead and a leader of men and probably a guide for his younger family members, like Rickon. Namely, he's really the only person trying to save the realm for its own sake, with no hope or expectation of recognition. His is a case where people are following the man. Tywin's a shit but his line about "a man who has to say that he is the king is no king at all" line was spot on.

4. I think Dany is a red herring in a lot of ways. I also think it's curious that you think the guy who's been on the Wall since nearly the beginning is less likely to be the hinge to defeating the Others than the girl who's been in Essos the whole time and has no idea the Others even exist. A lot of people, very fairly, chafe at the idea of Dany ending up as a function of someone else's story. Yet this type of thinking reduces Jon to being a function of Dany's story. If it's cliche for Jon to become king, isn't it also cliche for someone like Dany to swoop in at the last minute to save the day, despite having little to no previous narrative connection to that part of the story?

5. Obviously R+L=J will affect the endgame somehow or GRRM wouldn't have written it to be the truth. If it has no bearing on the story, why not just make Jon Ned's bastard? I have never, and will never, get the argument that "it won't matter." Likely it will be prophetically and not politically, but it will still matter.

All of this

Then what exactly is the point of R+L=J?

It really has two possible effects: political, wherein it enables Jon to press a claim, and/or prophetic, wherein it points to Jon as being key to, presumably, defeating the Others and bringing back elemental balance.

The former idea has various issues (Jon would have to prove it, he might not even want it), leaving me to conclude that it will matter prophetically.

Has to be a combination of both, but I certainly lean towards prophetic.

I think it will be eventually involved in the resolution of the political conflict as well. Jon was the best person for the LC of the NW but he was completely unaware of the events that led to his election. He did not even put himself as a candidate.

I really like this concept. It's like when Tywin said something along the lines of "if a man has it say he is a king, he is no king at all" or something. Jon's lack of focus on the politics of being a leader allow him to actually be a functioning leader.

I think this is the reason for the idea. The prophesy says he will be of the line of Aerys. I think Dany is the Red Herring that the readers are supposed to believe to be AAR so as Jon's true identity is hidden from most readers they will not suspect him as AAR and go with Dany.

Everyone knows it's not Stannis (maybe even Melisandre knows) so the obvious answer then is Dany. But I think she fits too literally into the "wakes dragons from stone" type prophesy. Prophesies have all used imagery and dragons have always referred to Targaryens and not actual dragons.

So I believe that Jon's hidden identity helps Dany as Red Herring for AAR.

This is a point that needs to be emphasized more often. 90% of book readers and show watchers aren't aware of R+L=J. If you were to ask them who is going to save the day, I would assume that the majority of them would say Daenerys. The combination of her fiery personality, dragons, and claim to the throne make sense to people. When we (the forums sect) talk about how R+L=J being too obvious and that making Jon the savior too obvious, you forget that when GRRM began writing these he never in a million years could've imagined a worldwide forum like this dissecting everything he said. Jon being AAR will surprise a huge number of people when it is revealed, just imagine how many more it would've surprised without these forums. Jon isn't the obvious choice for most people. He seems like an average guy who is pretty level headed, honorable, and not obsessed with power. The complete opposite of Dany.

From a literary standpoint, the purpose of Jon's identity as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen is that Jon is the epic hero of this story. The epic hero is born of royal or divine parentage, and is raised outside of his family of origin. He is called to adventure, visits the underworld, and returns with the great boon which redeems his society.

The structure of the story is an archetype across cultures and centuries.Examples include King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, Jesus, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Ive always thought this was so obvious. When i got my masters degree in English I wrote a study about the epic hero, and while it was about Odysseus and the modern hero, Jon Snow was in the back of my head the entire time. At the end of ADWD when we saw what happened to him i thought, "okay, well here is when he 'dies' before his moments of redemption'.

In order for it to matter politically, Jon has to be able to prove who he is, and get people to believe that his claim to the throne is the strongest. It also depends on him, you know, actually trying to get the throne. What in the story would lead anyone to think that once Jon finds out who he is, he's going to immediately lay claim to the Iron Throne?

I actually think the political angle is a steeper hill to climb than the prophetic one.

We've had 5 books to see Jon's personality. Just as the man who raised him (Ned) never would've climbed on to the throne himself, neither would Jon. I can't see him all of a sudden deciding that's what he wanted, it doesn't fit what we know about him at all. That being said, he accepted the LC position because he saw it as his duty and his responsibility. If someone, or many people decide that the safety and security of the entire realm suddenly becomes his duty and responsibility, maybe he would accept that political responsibility. I fully believe his role as R+L=J is a prophetic one however. I think he saves the world, and he dies doing so. Both he and Dany.

A dragon doesn't prove he is a Targaryen.

It doesn't, but it might be taken as a sign.

We know about the "commoner" theories, and how the increased power of the lower and middle class is coming into play with the High Sparrow and such, and we know how superstitious the mass population is. Like the commenters above remarked, if a Dragon were to fly around and land at Jon's side (like the Raven), it would certainly be seen as a sign (from the Gods, old, seven, R'hllor, doesn't really matter) that the peasants could get behind.