Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I really have not enough time for a proper comment of wolf packs & hierarchy within them, so just a few things to consider:

1- What is widwly known about wolf behavioue and the alfa-omega structure is mostly wrong, observed to wolves in captivity and not in the wild. However, much of ASOIAF's wolf pack stucture is based on these ideas, but not entirely, because:

a- These are direwolves, of a fictional kind. The usual rules of the "small grey cousins" may not apply, if the text proposes something different we should keep to the text and not to real-life zoology.

b- These are exceptional direwolves, as they are wargs. For examble, we don't know for sure why Nymeria does not mate: it may be because no wolf is strong enough, or because it would mean that she'd elevate her mate to the alfa male role and therefore lose her status as the supreme pack leader (in complex packs -big packs, more than just parents and their young childern- the alfa male is the leader, above the female), or, she's only behaving this way because of Arya's influence as her warg.

2- Thanks to the warg bond, the text provides a lot of first-hand "knowledge" of how the (dire)wolfs feel and behave, and we can know for sure that securing dominance in the pack is not a nice thing at all:

The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side, nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size. Their eyes met.

Warg!

Then the two rushed together, wolf and direwolf, and there was no more time for thought. The world shrank down to tooth and claw, snow flying as they rolled and spun and tore at one another, the other wolves snarling and snapping around them. His jaws closed on matted fur slick with hoarfrost, on a limb thin as a dry stick, but the one-eyed wolf clawed at his belly and tore himself free, rolled, lunged for him. Yellow fangs snapped closed on his throat, but he shook off his old grey cousin as he would a rat, then charged after him, knocked him down. Rolling, ripping, kicking, they fought until the both of them were ragged and fresh blood dappled the snows around them. But finally the old one-eyed wolf lay down and showed his belly. The direwolf snapped at him twice more, sniffed at his butt, then lifted a leg over him.

A few snaps and a warning growl, and the female and the tail submitted too. The pack was his.

Two things here: One, that's just like how Arya got dominance over her peers, that's just like her fight with Hotpie. She has the pack mentality and the "alpha" mentality, meaning she wants and fights for the position, but she also wants and accepts the responsibility.

Two, the bolded: it's a symbolic gesture of dominance among canids, a very usual one, and it's a symbolic 'mounting' and yes, between them it also means that the female surrenders to the male by accepting him as a mate - that's why I am very, very uncomfortable in linking wolf pack & mating behaviour with corresponding human relations; wolves are animals and only follow what nature dictates, but the direct parallel in a human male/female sexual relationship creates a considerably sexist situation (and it's, in fact, what makes me somewhat uncomfortable with the Jon/Arya possibility).

In regards to Gendry as part of a wolfpack (and subsequently, his position in the pack dynamics and his reationship with Arya), I think it is clear that the "pack" is a notion of Arya alone, the other members do not think of it in such terms (understandably so, I don't mean it as a negative per se). Gendry, for examble, proposes to leave Lommy behind, to leave Weasel to her fate and so on. He only cares about Arya and sticks with them all only because Arya won't abandon them, because as a wold she's totally loyal to the pack. Just as she risked everything to save Gendry when he got captured while Hotpie and Lommy would rather leave him to his fate and move on.

Gendry is not a wolf, and certainly not a direwolf. It is wrong to see him that way when the sense in which Arya (as all the Stark children) "is a wolf" transcends -by far!- the ordinary westerosi connection to the family sigil. Moreover, Gendry has an animal symbol of his own: he's the bull. Strong, physically, but domesticated. And herbivore; a large herbivore (that's partly why in a previous post I said he is food), that's the direwolf's prey: "she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself"... As it happens, his biological father's symbol is a large herbivore as well but I think that his chosen symbol is what really matters, as it conveys better how he sees himself. And in truth, he's not a predator, while Arya is; he's of a rather peaceful nature.

So, for a potential future relationship between them, Arya should not follow the wolf behavioral pattern (as I explained my view above, that would be a good thing, IMO, but how likely, not so sure...) and I could see him in a role, like, being her "Ellaria" with Arya as Oberyn. But not as a wolf. (The smithy thing reminds me of the contact games we used to play as kids around that age, when we started feeling crushes and the need to touch, but not quite why we were feeling that way, and embarassed to openly accept our feelings and go for it. It's sweet and innocent, but not much more than that, IMO.)

One last thing: Both Summer and Ghost, I think, refer to Nymeria's pack as "small grey cousins" (while, to Nymeria, they are brothers and sisters). Bran later, when Summer aquires his new pack, makes the distinction between the two, and that the direwolves are their "true" pack. Arya has similar thoughts, only about her human "pack" of Gendry and Hotpie. I think that in wolfish terms, Gendry can only lose - he can't rise above the "small grey cousin" status (no, size does not matter in this case ;) ).

[Han Snow]

:bowdown:

Nice post ShadowCat Rivers.

Concise and clear.

[sweetsunray]

With Sansa, but more importantly Rickon alive I have to disagree with Arya becoming a Queen on her own heritage. Well, unless she kills them, which she won't. So, I don't know where are you drawing this stuff from. Maybe Sansa and Rickon and Bran die but I don't see it. You are wrong here. If Arya is to be a Queen it will have to be through marriage. The choosing part, well, is no problem either. She loves Jon and she'll choose him just fine.

Great, but he is a bull or a stag, but not a wolf. You are mixing your pots and pans.

Ghost was always positioned like the outsider. Not a part of the pack. But anyways. The direwolves liking each other is just symbolic. It doesn't mean that if Jon and Arya end up together that Ghost has to mount Nymeria.

That is just ignorant. The outline is very important and it gives us an idea of what George is going for. I could write a 3000 word essay here how most of the plot points survived in the finished product aka the books. Where, for example Theon/Ramsay is proxy for Tyrion burning Winterfell, or Alys as Arya at the wall and so on. But the most important thing that the outline shows us is that Jon and Arya were the IT romance in the saga and that George had no qualms with going there in terms of incest, yuckiness and so on. Ignore the outline all you want but you can not ignore what is in the books themselves...

Oh wait. Well, actually you can and it seems you are. My advice is do not.

You are misinterpreting my words. I only meant to show how in the grand scheme of things she is always leaning, wanting to go to Jon. The build up for that event is more than obvious, but again you can choose to ignore it. At least we agree on the returning to BWTB part.

Usually. But this is clearly NOT the case here. First of all, it was NOT THE CASE when George first envisioned the story. Secondly, no matter how hard you try in downplaying the importance of the bond and the connection Jon and Arya share, it is still there, plain for the readers to see. I can pull a dozen quotes from all of the published books in mere minutes to prove my point and you can continue to amplify the importance of the Arya /Gendry chapters and their limited interaction. Westermarck effect is not in play for Jon and Arya because the last he saw Arya she was a child. He had an incredible bond with her, but she was just a child. If any sort or romance is to happen with them, she has to be a woman when they meet again. I know that 14 y.o. girl is not ordinarily a woman. But for Arya I'll make an exception. It's actually the same in Arya/Gendry case. So you have to agree here. But the point I'm making is that Jon will have missed the trans-formative years where she changes from girl to woman. So if anything, the case of genetic attraction could be argued. And again it would be moot because per George, Jon's parentage absolves them of the incest sin. (well, in medieval terms, since cousin marriages were quite common).

And I am not concluding anything in terms of marriage. I just suggested it as a likely probability. If I'm concluding anything it is that in the emotional terms Gendry/Arya is fairly unimportant compared to Jon/Arya. Whatever happens in the end, it will be about these two not Gendry and Arya. And as I said that doesn't exclude some sort of reunion and conclusion for the said pairing (G/A).

It is there. It is flirty, playful and funny considering Gendry is a byblow of the dead KING. Something George enjoys writing. Gendry as a male chauvinist, well, I never argued or claimed him as such. What I state is what is in the text. Gendry has a crush on Arya, a little weird considering how much younger she is, but okay, let's let it slide. He crushes on her, he deals with it in his own way. He is not a chauvinist but he is also not fully and utterly acceptive of Arya's role and background. And again you are clearly amplifying him as a character. He is a supportive, tertiary level of importance character that serves to give Arya something to do, someone to react to, someone with whom she can tumble through the emerging emotions that kids entering first stages of puberty and adulthood go through. Making him more than that is wrong, in my opinion.

Again, you are making way more of this than it is. And I'm not saying it is not there or real, but it is that what you seem to reject. Playful flirting and crushing by two kids in extraordinary circumstances. It may have been wolfish courtship but it doesn't mean it's done. That Arya has settled on Gendry as the only possible partner for her. Au contraire, the AFFC and ADWD show us how little she thinks of Gendry in terms of the crush she clearly experienced when they were in proximity. It's over, It's done. Also, He is a stag, not a wolf. Wolfs eat stags. Edit: Or as ShadowCat Rivers eloquently wrote in a post behind this one: A bull. I totally forgot the Bull symbolism for him.

Wow, It's fascinating how you got that picture clear message that Aray and Gendry specifically are NOWHERE NEAR DONE with that part of the text. I agree that they'll probably meet again and have conclusion to their little friendship/courtship. But nothing epic, grandiose or end-gamish.

And here you mean canon as in ENDGAME, gonna end up together, pairing canon?? Because I disagree. They are canon as much as the Jon/Ygritte were canon, or Jon and Val obviously flirting and invoking all kinds of courtship rituals canon, even Jon and Alys, who is a clear cut proxy for Arya as she can be, canon. My advice is not: Prepare for everything and expect nothing, because that is wrong. My advice is prepare for everything, hope for what you like, but don't ignore important things like the outline and the actual wall of text in the published material.

Peace.

WTF? I was willing to respond to your post with interest, until I read how you suddenly start to make personal assumptions on my reading abilities, because I do not want to necessarily consider a first outline as my guide, but rather the actual writing in the books.

I think you've made a lot of effort in writing the rest of the post, but admittedly I stopped reading once you became personal. Just letting you know why that's all the further notice you'll get from me on this subject. If someone can't discuss an opinion without having to dismiss a person's ability to read and actually use it as an argument then I don't have anything else to say to that person. So you know what you can do with your 'fPeace'

[Han Snow]

WTF? I was willing to respond to your post with interest, until I read how you suddenly start to make personal assumptions on my reading abilities, because I do not want to necessarily consider a first outline as my guide, but rather the actual writing in the books.

Edit:

Oh. I get it now. You are offended because I suggested that you are acting ignorant with the way you dismiss the outline. Well, If you can't grasp the concept of examining the books in comparison to the original outline made for them as worthy of discussion than we indeed have nothing more to talk about.

I think you've made a lot of effort in writing the rest of the post, but admittedly I stopped reading once you became personal. Just letting you know why that's all the further notice you'll get from me on this subject. If someone can't discuss an opinion without having to dismiss a person's ability to read and actually use it as an argument then I don't have anything else to say to that person. So you know what you can do with your 'fPeace'

Personal, in a way that I supposed that the discussion is invalid and without merit when you purposely ignore part of the evidence available to us. Anything other than that is your take and construct made from my words but without MY meaning. So feel offended if you want, nothing I can do about it.

[sweetsunray]

I really have not enough time for a proper comment of wolf packs & hierarchy within them, so just a few things to consider:

1- What is widwly known about wolf behavioue and the alfa-omega structure is mostly wrong, observed to wolves in captivity and not in the wild. However, much of ASOIAF's wolf pack stucture is based on these ideas, but not entirely, because:

a- These are direwolves, of a fictional kind. The usual rules of the "small grey cousins" may not apply, if the text proposes something different we should keep to the text and not to real-life zoology.

b- These are exceptional direwolves, as they are wargs. For examble, we don't know for sure why Nymeria does not mate: it may be because no wolf is strong enough, or because it would mean that she'd elevate her mate to the alfa male role and therefore lose her status as the supreme pack leader (in complex packs -big packs, more than just parents and their young childern- the alfa male is the leader, above the female), or, she's only behaving this way because of Arya's influence as her warg.

2- Thanks to the warg bond, the text provides a lot of first-hand "knowledge" of how the (dire)wolfs feel and behave, and we can know for sure that securing dominance in the pack is not a nice thing at all:

The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side, nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size. Their eyes met.

Warg!

Then the two rushed together, wolf and direwolf, and there was no more time for thought. The world shrank down to tooth and claw, snow flying as they rolled and spun and tore at one another, the other wolves snarling and snapping around them. His jaws closed on matted fur slick with hoarfrost, on a limb thin as a dry stick, but the one-eyed wolf clawed at his belly and tore himself free, rolled, lunged for him. Yellow fangs snapped closed on his throat, but he shook off his old grey cousin as he would a rat, then charged after him, knocked him down. Rolling, ripping, kicking, they fought until the both of them were ragged and fresh blood dappled the snows around them. But finally the old one-eyed wolf lay down and showed his belly. The direwolf snapped at him twice more, sniffed at his butt, then lifted a leg over him.

A few snaps and a warning growl, and the female and the tail submitted too. The pack was his.

Two things here: One, that's just like how Arya got dominance over her peers, that's just like her fight with Hotpie. She has the pack mentality and the "alpha" mentality, meaning she wants and fights for the position, but she also wants and accepts the responsibility.

Two, the bolded: it's a symbolic gesture of dominance among canids, a very usual one, and it's a symbolic 'mounting' and yes, between them it also means that the female surrenders to the male by accepting him as a mate - that's why I am very, very uncomfortable in linking wolf pack & mating behaviour with corresponding human relations; wolves are animals and only follow what nature dictates, but the direct parallel in a human male/female sexual relationship creates a considerably sexist situation (and it's, in fact, what makes me somewhat uncomfortable with the Jon/Arya possibility).

In regards to Gendry as part of a wolfpack (and subsequently, his position in the pack dynamics and his reationship with Arya), I think it is clear that the "pack" is a notion of Arya alone, the other members do not think of it in such terms (understandably so, I don't mean it as a negative per se). Gendry, for examble, proposes to leave Lommy behind, to leave Weasel to her fate and so on. He only cares about Arya and sticks with them all only because Arya won't abandon them, because as a wold she's totally loyal to the pack. Just as she risked everything to save Gendry when he got captured while Hotpie and Lommy would rather leave him to his fate and move on.

Gendry is not a wolf, and certainly not a direwolf. It is wrong to see him that way when the sense in which Arya (as all the Stark children) "is a wolf" transcends -by far!- the ordinary westerosi connection to the family sigil. Moreover, Gendry has an animal symbol of his own: he's the bull. Strong, physically, but domesticated. And herbivore; a large herbivore (that's partly why in a previous post I said he is food), that's the direwolf's prey: "she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself"... As it happens, his biological father's symbol is a large herbivore as well but I think that his chosen symbol is what really matters, as it conveys better how he sees himself. And in truth, he's not a predator, while Arya is; he's of a rather peaceful nature.

So, for a potential future relationship between them, Arya should not follow the wolf behavioral pattern (as I explained my view above, that would be a good thing, IMO, but how likely, not so sure...) and I could see him in a role, like, being her "Ellaria" with Arya as Oberyn. But not as a wolf. (The smithy thing reminds me of the contact games we used to play as kids around that age, when we started feeling crushes and the need to touch, but not quite why we were feeling that way, and embarassed to openly accept our feelings and go for it. It's sweet and innocent, but not much more than that, IMO.)

One last thing: Both Summer and Ghost, I think, refer to Nymeria's pack as "small grey cousins" (while, to Nymeria, they are brothers and sisters). Bran later, when Summer aquires his new pack, makes the distinction between the two, and that the direwolves are their "true" pack. Arya has similar thoughts, only about her human "pack" of Gendry and Hotpie. I think that in wolfish terms, Gendry can only lose - he can't rise above the "small grey cousin" status (no, size does not matter in this case ;) ).

The courtship behaviour I've read about was wild wolf (not in captivity): of two lone wolves meeting and how eventually they make a pair.. all that goes before mounting and forming an alpha pair and a pack. I'm working on taking notes for myself to make an essay on this for the forum, but it's nowhere finished.

Sure, it are direwolves and direwolves are an extinct species in our world so neither we nor GRRM would have any actual direwolf courting behaviour to write on. But if GRRM intended to put it in there, then he'll use courtship behaviour of wolves as they are known. And I think GRRM put it in there on purpose.

Indeed, the direwolf isn't Gendry's sigil... in fact he has none. True he had a bull's helmet, but he lost his. True his father's sigil was a stag, but he's neither a ligitemized bastard nor even an acknowledged one. He doesn't even have a right to call himself Waters. So, he has no sigil. The interesting thing is that it's often Gendry's who glaringly acts like a male wolf and often initiates the behaviour within the courtship context, while Arya remains wary of him as a female wolf would. One of those early hints, is actually Gendry proposing they'd leave the wounded and weak behind. When wolves get to know each other and meet, they isolate themselves from the rest. They don't do it in front of a pack. And that doesn't fit bovine behaviour at all. Bovines rely on having a herd around them to both mate and survive. By the last time we see him, he's a very angry person and kills Biter. And he's put in a guardian role of what looks to be a den of pups. Bovines don't have a creche, wolves do, and alpha males watch over the den as much as an alpha female would. I never thought of Gendry as a wolf at all, until I read the wolf courtship material out there. He's very much acting like a male wolf around her, that's what's so surprising about it. And GRRM has made him lose the bull helmet and in a bastard situation where he has no claim to his father's sigil whatsoever. In many ways it liberates him from being the bovine.

The part you quoted is the dominance behaviour in establishing alpha-beta and omega within pack ranks. It has nothing to do with wolf courtship - none. And alpha wolf pairing is nothing like it. There's no aggressive domination one over the other involved. It's a wary playfight process, where often the male wolf will invite play and acts partially submissive by putting his head down, lowering the body and yipping. An alpha pair usually start out as strangers, and are very wary about each other. They test each other's strengths through playfight - bumping, running, rolling around. Gradually they spend more time together - sleeping, eating, hunting, sniffing, nuzzling. The alpha bond is made over time and learning to rely on one another. Eventually they start their own pack. And yes, Gendry threw a wrench in that process when he decided to remain with the Brotherhood. And she instantly punishes him for it, by not spending any time with him anymore. And it may very well be she never will trust him again or ever will forgive him for that.

Canon clarification: When I say canon I mean it's a romantic pairing that's already in the books, and it has nothing to do with end-game for me. Because a canon pairing doesn't imply to me that it will last or win out or even will be the only pairing. When two characters both have a romantic subtext or relation with each other they are canon to me. Jon/Ygritte is canon. Dany/Drogo and Dany/Daario are canon. Jaime/Cersei are canon, and so are Jaime/Brienne. Sansan are canon. As Arya wanted the bonding to last and Gendry remains textually tied to Arya (though they are separated) it makes them canon for me. But one may die, one may never forgive, and one or both even may end up pairing with someone else (including Jon/Arya).

As for the Jon/Arya shippers:

I'm not denying there's nothing there for Jon/Arya shippers in the books. I just regard it in the attraction modeling context. We don't get to see a bonding process between Jon/Arya, because well that's simple - they grew up together in the same den. And after Arya's first chapter they've never seen each other again to compare their interaction with the wolf courtship. The original outline may be in play, it may be not. If someone thinks it has significant weight, then that's someone's prerogative, just as much it's my prerogative not to. It's the books that count. And anyone claiming I can't read, asumming that I'm denying book text when I don't (both straw man and personal) can take a hike.

[Stormourne]

The courtship behaviour I've read about was wild wolf (not in captivity): of two lone wolves meeting and how eventually they make a pair.. all that goes before mounting and forming an alpha pair and a pack. I'm working on taking notes for myself to make an essay on this for the forum, but it's nowhere finished.

Sure, it are direwolves and direwolves are an extinct species in our world so neither we nor GRRM would have any actual direwolf courting behaviour to write on. But if GRRM intended to put it in there, then he'll use courtship behaviour of wolves as they are known. And I think GRRM put it in there on purpose.

Indeed, the direwolf isn't Gendry's sigil... in fact he has none. True he had a bull's helmet, but he lost his. True his father's sigil was a stag, but he's neither a ligitemized bastard nor even an acknowledged one. He doesn't even have a right to call himself Waters. So, he has no sigil. The interesting thing is that it's often Gendry's who glaringly acts like a male wolf and often initiates the behaviour within the courtship context, while Arya remains wary of him as a female wolf would. One of those early hints, is actually Gendry proposing they'd leave the wounded and weak behind. When wolves get to know each other and meet, they isolate themselves from the rest. They don't do it in front of a pack. And that doesn't fit bovine behaviour at all. Bovines rely on having a herd around them to both mate and survive. By the last time we see him, he's a very angry person and kills Biter. And he's put in a guardian role of what looks to be a den of pups. Bovines don't have a creche, wolves do, and alpha males watch over the den as much as an alpha female would. I never thought of Gendry as a wolf at all, until I read the wolf courtship material out there. He's very much acting like a male wolf around her, that's what's so surprising about it. And GRRM has made him lose the bull helmet and in a bastard situation where he has no claim to his father's sigil whatsoever. In many ways it liberates him from being the bovine.

The part you quoted is the dominance behaviour in establishing alpha-beta and omega within pack ranks. It has nothing to do with wolf courtship - none. And alpha wolf pairing is nothing like it. There's no aggressive domination one over the other involved. It's a wary playfight process, where often the male wolf will invite play and acts partially submissive by putting his head down, lowering the body and yipping. An alpha pair usually start out as strangers, and are very wary about each other. They test each other's strengths through playfight - bumping, running, rolling around. Gradually they spend more time together - sleeping, eating, hunting, sniffing, nuzzling. The alpha bond is made over time and learning to rely on one another. Eventually they start their own pack. And yes, Gendry threw a wrench in that process when he decided to remain with the Brotherhood. And she instantly punishes him for it, by not spending any time with him anymore. And it may very well be she never will trust him again or ever will forgive him for that.

Canon clarification: When I say canon I mean it's a romantic pairing that's already in the books, and it has nothing to do with end-game for me. Because a canon pairing doesn't imply to me that it will last or win out or even will be the only pairing. When two characters both have a romantic subtext or relation with each other they are canon to me. Jon/Ygritte is canon. Dany/Drogo and Dany/Daario are canon. Jaime/Cersei are canon, and so are Jaime/Brienne. Sansan are canon. As Arya wanted the bonding to last and Gendry remains textually tied to Arya (though they are separated) it makes them canon for me. But one may die, one may never forgive, and one or both even may end up pairing with someone else (including Jon/Arya).

As for the Jon/Arya shippers:

I'm not denying there's nothing there for Jon/Arya shippers in the books. I just regard it in the attraction modeling context. We don't get to see a bonding process between Jon/Arya, because well that's simple - they grew up together in the same den. And after Arya's first chapter they've never seen each other again to compare their interaction with the wolf courtship. The original outline may be in play, it may be not. If someone thinks it has significant weight, then that's someone's prerogative, just as much it's my prerogative not to. It's the books that count. And anyone claiming I can't read, asumming that I'm denying book text when I don't (both straw man and personal) can take a hike.

You think SanSan is canon? *sigh* I just rolled my eyes, by the way. Seriously?

[sweetsunray]

You think SanSan is canon? *sigh* I just rolled my eyes, by the way. Seriously?

He's into her... Sansa has her unkiss. Their interactions have romantic and sexual subtext. I don't ship it. I hardly care about it even. But it's there, hence canon... just not necessarily end-game. That's why I made a point of it, to include it in the examples.

[Stormourne]

He's into her... Sansa has her unkiss. Their interactions have romantic and sexual subtext. I don't ship it. I hardly care about it even. But it's there, hence canon... just not necessarily end-game. That's why I made a point of it, to include it in the examples.

I've never felt that he has any romantic feelings for Sansa. As for the sexual subtext, possibly, but I doubt romance is interconnected with it. A kiss does not equal love.

[sweetsunray]

I've never felt that he has any romantic feelings for Sansa. As for the sexual subtext, possibly, but I doubt romance is interconnected with it. A kiss does not equal love.

For someone who's only sexually interested he's mightily angry when he learns about Tyrion's mariage to Sansa. He's dying thinking and saying he should have raped her (partially to provoke Arya into killing him), but the fact that he didn't when he had the chance reveals his feelings are not solely sexual, or dominant. I'm not saying it's love either. But there's a romantic bond between the two, regardless whether they acknowledge it to themselves or even like it, and Sandor would be absolutely gobsmacked if he knew about Sansa's unkiss.

[Stormourne]

For someone who's only sexually interested he's mightily angry when he learns about Tyrion's mariage to Sansa. He's dying thinking and saying he should have raped her (partially to provoke Arya into killing him), but the fact that he didn't when he had the chance reveals his feelings are not solely sexual, or dominant. I'm not saying it's love either. But there's a romantic bond between the two, regardless whether they acknowledge it to themselves or even like it, and Sandor would be absolutely gobsmacked if he knew about Sansa's unkiss.

Perhaps it's a unhealthy form of love that is bastardized? We should take into account the environment Sandor grew up in. I would not want Sansa to ever be in a relationship with him. It would not end well. Could turn abusive.

[Han Snow]

:hat:

[sweetsunray]

Perhaps it's a unhealthy form of love that is bastardized? We should take into account the environment Sandor grew up in. I would not want Sansa to ever be in a relationship with him. It would not end well. Could turn abusive.

It very well could. Personally, I hope there's a future for Sansa without a relationship... her pairings all seem twisted - Joffrey the sadistic psychopath, Tyrion who doesn't force himself on her but gripes about her not desiring him, Baelish' pedo and other twisted dillusional romantic ideas (thinking he took Cat's maidenhood), and

Harry the Heir's introduction far from impressed me (people who are purposefully rude on first introduction are waving a red flag imo... I go no contact myself with such people. Basic respectful interaction is something I value and I don't make light of it. Learned the hard way. )

. They all seem to display some "beast" aspect versus "innocent maiden". Sandor fits that pattern. I'm not a fan of beast/brute-maiden stuff. And I dislike Drogo/Dany because of it too, even though it's canon and GRRM himself regards it as romantic.

[Stormourne]

It very well could. Personally, I hope there's a future for Sansa without a relationship... her pairings all seem twisted - Joffrey the sadistic psychopath, Tyrion who doesn't force himself on her but gripes about her not desiring him, Baelish' pedo and other twisted dillusional romantic ideas (thinking he took Cat's maidenhood), and

Harry the Heir's introduction far from impressed me (people who are purposefully rude on first introduction are waving a red flag imo... I go no contact myself with such people. Basic respectful interaction is something I value and I don't make light of it. Learned the hard way. )

. They all seem to display some "beast" aspect versus "innocent maiden". Sandor fits that pattern. I'm not a fan of beast/brute-maiden stuff. And I dislike Drogo/Dany because of it too, even though it's canon and GRRM himself regards it as romantic.

Her previous relationships have all been one big subversion of the traditional trope of the pretty girl marrying the pretty guy. I would love it for her to not get married in the end, but I kind of doubt that. If the Starks do get back Winterfell and the North, marriages are important methods in securing alliances. Part of me is fearful that both Arya and Sansa will marry someone they don't love just to secure alliances. :/

[ARYa_Nym]

As for the love song I've often said I see it as saying it won't happen rather than the shippers belief that it will. The man and the woman in the song don't want the same thing. He wants to be her lord and guard her with his sword. The woman wanted to be lovers so not married.

I agree that any Lady Arya + Lord Gendry (or Queen Arya + Lord Gendry) scenario stretches the text. But if GRRM were writing a more traditional fantasy series, Arya becoming Lady Baratheon of Storm's End would make sense, as she's sort of Lyanna's doppelgänger, and it was a fate that Lyanna did not care for (to say the least). I've read some of this scenario in the fanon, and played around with it as an idea myself. Like I've said (a lot), Arya is one of my favorite characters, and so I've thought it through. SE isn't a totally happy ending for her, because it's thousands of leagues from Winterfell, in one of the most dreadful climates of the South, and she would be the lady that she never wanted to be. However, the culture of the Stormlands, like the culture of the North, is one of Westeros' most martial, and there have been ties from the Age of Heroes between the wolf and the stag, going back to the rumors that Bran the Builder helped Durran Godgrief construct SE in the first place.

It may be but here's the thing we've actually seen people from the Stormlands in the books. Didn't Asha get shit from them for being a woman who fights? I definitely remember Selyse and her ilk valuing a traditional lady. Remember her advice to Val. The men I'm sure wanted Val so they could tame her. I don't think they like her as she is. She represents a challenge to them and she's beautiful. Although Arya is not the same to Asha but still I see no indication that they would be ok with her murderous tendencies.

IA that SE isn't a happy ending. I never got it. Why is there an assumption that she would like the place? She doesn't know anyone from there. & the people we have seen from there I don't see why it would be any different from when she was miserable in KL.

ETA: And I was just talking about Stannis' faction but I forgot about Renly. I definitely remember Brienne being ridiculed and seen as a joke by people in the Stormlands. Renly himself was amused. A lot of Renly's group were like him. Cat called them knights of summer. Again Arya is not like Brienne but I'm saying based on what we've seen of the people who are actually from there I see nothing that says they would like how Arya behaves and wouldn't make her life difficult. & all that courtly stuff Renly was into is more up Sansa's alley than Arya's.

I also vaguely remember complaints about Jon letting the wildling women fight although that may have only come from Stannis. Still I doubt his men don't share his sentiments based on how some spoke to Asha.

We haven't seen very many ladies but if most are like Selyse then that would be even worse than when Arya didn't want to hang out with Sansa and Myrcella in KL. Myrcella at least is nice and isn't snooty. It would be hard for her to acquire a group of girl friends. Her friends in Braavos are entirely different. & the lady of SE is not going to be around commoners typically to be hanging with them and she already learned her lesson that it's hard to be genuine friends with someone when you are above their rank.

Anyways, to the topic I think Gendry is clearly not a replacement for Jon. Jon not Gendry is still the person she loves the most as in the original outline so Gendry did not do anything to change that. It's just that the romance is gone. Their feelings for each other were supposed to be something she dealt with the entire series meanwhile Gendry's relevance to Arya has gotten less and less. I don't see how that is building up a great love story if she moves away from him, doesn't want to go back to him but does want to go back to Jon, and hardly thinks about him anymore.

<snip>

Excellent post.

Has anyone else thought that an unknown character (around Arya's age) might show up in the last two books and somehow manage to get through to Arya, and thus become a potential love interest? It's crossed my mind a few times. I wouldn't be against it (knowing how G.R.R.M writes, it would be a good read).

I don't think a love story is in her future like with the original outline but had the 5 year gap not been scrapped she likely would have had sex with someone who is not Gendry and maybe several people by now. Like those sailors she likes to hang around or any of the shady people she's friends with.The original Mercy chapter was more explicit.

[ARYa_Nym]

As for playful fights... it was more than just a playful fight. Before the fight, Gendry complimented her in the dress, Gendry sniffed her. When they came back, her clothes were torn, they were dirty and there was suspicion about what they'd been doing. Arya was not 10, she was 11, and Gendry's 14. It's only a 3-year difference. And in GRRM's world girls a year or two years older were getting married and having sex. 11 year old girls DO have crushes, do experience sexual attraction, do have romantic feelings and 14 year old boys do have feelings for 11 year old girls, do have crushes, do have romantic feelings. I know, I was once an 11 year old girl. And this is not the 21st century, in that era, it was not unusual to start beginning to act on those feelings at a much younger age.

Are you talking about the books? Arya was not 11 until she went to Braavos.

ASoS:

"She was only ten, a skinny girl on a stolen horse with a dark forest ahead of her and men behind who would gladly cut off her feet."

When they were at Acorn Hall remember she said I'll be a woman soon, I'll be one and ten. So she was not 11 yet.

& in ACoK we're given the age difference.

"Arya had to scamper to keep up. Gendry was five years older and a foot taller than she was, and long of leg as well."

He's closer to Jon and Robb's age.

She's not necessarily the same as other girls her age. Look at her first sexual experience which was disturbing and highly abnormal. Asha was already interested in experimenting at Arya's age. Arya has not shown any interest in the males that she was surrounded by in Braavos. It's not because she's hung up on Gendry because she already rejected him for abandoning her in AFFC and she hasn't thought about him. I doubt it's because of some great love story either because other main characters have noted attraction to other people besides their supposed main love interest in the series.

Now she could have had a crush on Gendry but it's also true that little girls have fleeting crushes. They move on to the next one and do not fixate on one person their entire life. That's not the norm. Normally she would have had a crush on another boy by now instead of doing what she did (Mercy) which little girls typically do not do.

[Elaena Targaryen]

You push for Gendry and Arya hoping that George will actually write one of them as a changed character when they reunite, most likely Gendry, but I seriously doubt that. There is nothing to suggest he would not judge Arya for what she has done and become, like Arya is certain would be the case with Jon:

There are things that suggest Gendry does judge her, he has judged her for things that she (weasel soup), and her family (effects of war), has done. I feel it's one of the reasons why he had no problem "leaving" her to join the BwB. Yes he had feelings for her but at the same time he also became increasingly disillusioned with her.

In regards to Gendry as part of a wolfpack (and subsequently, his position in the pack dynamics and his reationship with Arya), I think it is clear that the "pack" is a notion of Arya alone, the other members do not think of it in such terms (understandably so, I don't mean it as a negative per se). Gendry, for examble, proposes to leave Lommy behind, to leave Weasel to her fate and so on. He only cares about Arya and sticks with them all only because Arya won't abandon them, because as a wold she's totally loyal to the pack. Just as she risked everything to save Gendry when he got captured while Hotpie and Lommy would rather leave him to his fate and move on.

Yep, on a reread, Gendry wanting to leave Lommy and Weasel behind made me realize what an ass he is and how he continues to be an ass. Now the only thing I find endearing about him is the mutual crush he shares with Arya but I still don't like the way he treats her and I certainly don't want them to end up together anymore. I used to think he "understood" and "accepted" her until I took a more critical look.

Also (Mercy spoiler)

This is also why I absolutely do not buy the argument that Arya killing Raff is meant to show that she still has feelings for Gendry in any way. The killing of Raff revolves around Lommy's plight and Gendry wanted to leave Lommy for the wolves, that's not the most flattering connecting reminder imo.

Furthermore I think it would be impossible for Arya not be reminded of her family here and Arya needing to kill Raff is directly connected to her family - her true pack. They are there with us and Mercy the entire time, Sansa is invoked so strongly in this chapter it's almost oppressive (to the point many think Mercy must be acting as Sansa in the play and/or Arya models Mercy after Sansa) Arya's previous characterization is what is invoking these intense feelings for me, there may not be very specific thoughts on her family in this chapter however I was no less emotionally effected.

I felt that is why Arya becomes so passionate about needing to kill Raff that it seems sexualized "She wanted him so bad" and all that. Arya has been having wolf dreams with Bran watching and probably attempting to communicate with her - she has been working on and practicing a play that probably has a Sansa character in it telling her story in an unflattering light I'm sure - Arya's character is to be raped by her sister's vile twisted husband - this play has the people who beheaded her father in it, who are on her all important "prayer list", who are most likely cast as heroes - the name of the man who wrote the play is Forel - and so on. So when she sees that one guard from the envoy's group, sent by the evil Lannister crew that has destroyed her family, just so happens to actually be a man from her all important "prayer list" Arya thinks "the gods have given me a gift".

No I bet Arya has been so tortured by all of the reminders of her family that it truly was a gift from the gods offering her a release before she did crack. The desire to kill Raff is so much beyond anything as blasé as vengeance, it is something beyond choice or reason, she has no control as it has become breath and life at this point. Arya needs to kill him, Arya can not wait to kill him, Arya can not lose her chance... it has to happen and can not be stopped anymore than an avalanche could be stopped. The fact that Arya also needed it to be played out in such a ritualistic fashion, reenacting Lommy's death exactly, just highlights her desperation for her family to me - no simple slash and run would or could appease the demons that have been haunting her - just like her emotionally intense killing of the Tickler that offered release of past horrors.

[Stormourne]

N/a

[arabian]

Arya was not 11 until she went to Braavos.

OK, Arya is 10, not 11. I don't really think the one year makes all that big a difference.

Arya does not leave her friends behind, even when facing serious danger; while Gendry will abandon his supposed friends when he sees that they will get them all killed. I struggle to find similarities between Arya and Gendry. :/

I don't want to say that Gendry is a coward, but he isn't as brave as Arya is. I could be wrong, though.

As for Gendry leaving friends behind and Arya not doing so, look at their backgrounds. Gendry lost his mother at a young age and basically has been on his own. Arya on the other hand has been surrounded by a loving family her whole life. They come from completely different dynamics. Yet, with very little prodding from Arya, Gendry DOES go back to help their friends. Gendry does stick with Arya to help Lommy and Hot Pie. He does stick around to help Weasel. Even though he's wary about leaving and trusting Arya when she tells him about leaving Harrenhal, he *does* go to Hot Pie, he *does* tell him Arya's plan and he *does* meet with her (along with Hot Pie) to leave. And he is also has her back throughout everything leading up to this.

He fights with Yoren and the others, certainly not acting like a coward. And he also never goes back on his word to Arya. Even to the point that when Hot Pie tells him that he heard Arya yelling "Winterfell" during the fight, Gendry covered for her and said she yelled "Go to Hell" and then told her so so that her story would match if Hot Pie asked. And even though he was upset with Roose Bolton taking over Harrenhal since he liked Lucan which Arya basically instigated by freeing the Northmen, Gendry still went along with her plans and roped Hot Pie in along as well when she said to leave... and he did this with very, very little prodding from her.

So to say that Gendry doesn't stick by his friends, and that he is a coward is not extrapolating from the text what proof we have that actually goes against that. He sticks by his friends DESPITE his upbringing which would have taught him to stick to himself.

(Yes, I'm finally re-reading the books.)

[arabian]

Well, I finished re-reading the first couple of books and I can't fathom how anyone can compare the Arya/Gendry relationship to Ron and Hermione of the Harry Potter universe. Arya and Gendry rarely fought and when they did it was over substantive stuff. On the other hand, Ron and Hermione bickered over any and everything, and Ron was annoyed by Hermione's very presence, manner and way of speaking and vice versa. Their relationship is absolutely nothing like Arya and Gendry's.

I also can not understand at all why GRRM decided to make all the kids as young as he did. And I know that he has stated since that he knows he should have made them older. Damn straight. It is just not even remotely believable that kids of these ages (any of them) could have gone through and survived all of the stuff that he has them go through. They should have been in their earlyish-mid to late teens (ie, younger ones in the earlyish to mid, and the ones in their earylish to mid in the books in their late teens), and frankly that's just how I imagine them when I read the books because it's the only way that it all makes sense. It really is.

With that said (age change or not because this *is* how he wrote it), I also can not fathom how anyone can read the whole section with Arya upset with Gendry calling him her sister, upset with him laughing at seeing her as a girl the first time, upset with him and the tavern whore, his upset over her spending time with Ned and recalling the tavern girl "ringing his bells" as anything other than romantic subtext and jealousy on both of their parts. Had GRRM written them the ages he was *clearly* writing these characters for (earlyish-mid to late teens), there wouldn't be even remotely a question that it was romantic subtext and jealousy. However, because of his very odd decision to attach the clearly wrong age to these characters clearly written in action and attitude above that age, the motivation is muddled for many readers. And I say "clearly" because, again, GRRM has stated himself since then that he should have changed their ages. He realizes that he should have changed their ages... note he said their ages, not their actions.

Anyhoo, yeah, those are my thoughts after re-reading. Still, I can't say I'm sorry he didn't do what he did because if he had we wouldn't have gotten Maisie Williams as Arya and she's so perfect in the role for me. So there's that. :)

[Nevets]

Well, I finished re-reading the first couple of books and I can't fathom how anyone can compare the Arya/Gendry relationship to Ron and Hermione of the Harry Potter universe. Arya and Gendry rarely fought and when they did it was over substantive stuff. On the other hand, Ron and Hermione bickered over any and everything, and Ron was annoyed by Hermione's very presence, manner and way of speaking and vice versa. Their relationship is absolutely nothing like Arya and Gendry's.

I also can not understand at all why GRRM decided to make all the kids as young as he did. And I know that he has stated since that he knows he should have made them older. Damn straight. It is just not even remotely believable that kids of these ages (any of them) could have gone through and survived all of the stuff that he has them go through. They should have been in their earlyish-mid to late teens (ie, younger ones in the earlyish to mid, and the ones in their earylish to mid in the books in their late teens), and frankly that's just how I imagine them when I read the books because it's the only way that it all makes sense. It really is.

With that said (age change or not because this *is* how he wrote it), I also can not fathom how anyone can read the whole section with Arya upset with Gendry calling him her sister, upset with him laughing at seeing her as a girl the first time, upset with him and the tavern whore, his upset over her spending time with Ned and recalling the tavern girl "ringing his bells" as anything other than romantic subtext and jealousy on both of their parts. Had GRRM written them the ages he was *clearly* writing these characters for (earlyish-mid to late teens), there wouldn't be even remotely a question that it was romantic subtext and jealousy. However, because of his very odd decision to attach the clearly wrong age to these characters clearly written in action and attitude above that age, the motivation is muddled for many readers. And I say "clearly" because, again, GRRM has stated himself since then that he should have changed their ages. He realizes that he should have changed their ages... note he said their ages, not their actions.

Anyhoo, yeah, those are my thoughts after re-reading. Still, I can't say I'm sorry he didn't do what he did because if he had we wouldn't have gotten Maisie Williams as Arya and she's so perfect in the role for me. So there's that. :)

If the characters' ages get changed, then their actions have to change as well. For incstance, Arya in Harrenhal plays differently at 12 or 13 than it does at 9 or 10 as in the books. For one thing, the risk of sexual abuse is increased, becoming something Arya would have to be concerned about. The ages of Arya and Sansa are given repeatedly throughout the series, even in FfC and DwD, as if GRRM wants to remind readers just how young Arya and Sansa are. However, I don't think Jon and Dany's ages have been mentioned since the first book. They are 16-17, and major political leaders,, which is a bit of a stretch. He's probably perfectly happy to let us forget how young they are

GRRM has indeed said he wishes the younger characters were older, for two reasons. One, which you alluded to in your post, is that their actions can seem unrealistic to a modern, Western audience. A nine-year old on her own in a large city is a non-starter in modern America or Europe. However, IIRC, the children at the beginning of the film Slumdog Millionaire, set in India, were about the same age, without parents or guardians, and nobody gave it a second thought. I suspect that children in a society like Westeros mature more quickly in many ways than do those in modern-day America. The second reason he wishes he had made the children older is that he was planning a five year time-jump after SoS. This would have made the Stark kids late-teens and Jon and Dany early twenties, making romance and marriage easier, and generally expanding the stories he could tell. Now, Arya will be, at most, 14 at the end of the series, making any marriage or romance much more problematic.

I think the Arya and Gendry scenes were written for characters aged 10 and 15, and should be read that way. I think there may be some romantic subtext and jealousy there, but still in a prepubescent and joking manner. Also, if they meet again, they will have been separated for at least a year or so, which is a long time at that age. I think Arya has moved on, but Gendry may not have.