WHEEL OF TIME officially optioned for television

[Mladen]

When it comes to HBO, would it overlap with GoT? I mean, they are having only 2 seasons more, according to the producers and by the time this gets shape, we may be already seeing the end of it. I am not sure, but this seems to be just a fetus, in terms of development.

This would need money. And we are talking some serious money. Not GoT Season 1 money, but GoT Season 5/6 money. At least $100 million. The other thing will be the premise. GoT was able to draw the outside-readership crowd due to the "Sopranos meets LotR" premise. WoT isn't innovative, different or ground-breaking in those terms. It has a faithful readership, but would it have faithful viewership. This is important question regarding it - what new can WoT can offer? I suppose Aes Sedai corner of the Universe could be done in "Game of thrones" fashion, that so many battles could get the proper adaptation, that the road trip adventures are interesting enough... I mean, this has a lot of hoops to jump over. And I am not sure this will be met so openly as GoT was. 

[Astromech]

58 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

I can't see how any TV adaptation can get away with less than 150 episodes for WoT and satisfy most book fans. It's possible, I think to cut the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere, completely as they pretty much serve as roadblocks, and there are enough problems with getting the nations on the continent + the Aiel + the Aes Sedai to get together.

I agree with cutting the Sea Folk, but not the Seanchan. Some arcs can really be trimmed such as the rebel Aes Sedai v. White Tower and Faile's capture.

I've always pictured it as an animated series.

[Spring Bass]

The Seanchan seem too integral to how things go down to be cut entirely, although you could certainly scale them back in terms of how much space they take in the story. I think the bigger cuts would be to the storylines of Elayne, Nynaeve, and Perrin, with our central cast being Rand, Mat, and Egwene (of course it would have a bunch of minor characters woven in and out). They'd keep the rebel Aes Sedai storyline because politics/a single set location/it's integral to Egwene's development, but definitely cut the "Rescue Faile" storyline. 

Budget is going to be tough for this one. It's a high-magic setting with many different locations, which would be either really expensive or really cheesy to show (especially Channeling the One Power). 

[red snow]

From what I've heard of the books AMC/makers of Walking Dead would be perfect at adapting storylines that drag and don't appear to go anywhere after a couple of seasons.

[Corvinus85]

4 hours ago, red snow said:

From what I've heard of the books AMC/makers of Walking Dead would be perfect at adapting storylines that drag and don't appear to go anywhere after a couple of seasons.

oh, it burns, it burns!!!

But I would only be OK with AMC doing it if Vince Gilligan is showrunner.

[Fez]

Well, considering how much happens in the first few books (and how little in many of the later ones), they could stretch those out to 6 or 7 seasons and make the end of The Dragon Reborn (I think that's the one) into the final battle instead. That's a pretty satisfying, lengthy, self-contained story right there.

[red snow]

31 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

oh, it burns, it burns!!!

But I would only be OK with AMC doing it if Vince Gilligan is showrunner.

I'd watch an adaptation of Stanek or the Hugo nominee dinosaur erotica if Vince Gilligan was showrunner. At least the pilot, anyway.

Starz seem to do pretty well with shows that appear to be big budget too

17 minutes ago, Fez said:

Well, considering how much happens in the first few books (and how little in many of the later ones), they could stretch those out to 6 or 7 seasons and make the end of The Dragon Reborn (I think that's the one) into the final battle instead. That's a pretty satisfying, lengthy, self-contained story right there.

I'd hope they'd go for fast paced and when they get to the wheel-spinning books be vicious with what they actually use. A show really doesn't need to run for more than 8 years so they should go into it with a 7 season plan but with that rip off split 7th season that's 50% longer. Unless CW gets it - they like running shows for decades.

[Werthead]

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I don't think you understand me. I think if you were to do WoT with all its filler it would be more like 300 episodes. Each WoT book is bigger than each ASoIaF book, and there is double the number of books. If GoT adapted AsoIaF more faithfully and comprehensively it would be nudging 150 episodes, IMO.

I can't see how any TV adaptation can get away with less than 150 episodes for WoT and satisfy most book fans. It's possible, I think to cut the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere, completely as they pretty much serve as roadblocks, and there are enough problems with getting the nations on the continent + the Aiel + the Aes Sedai to get together.

No WoT book is as big as ASoS or ADWD. The longest WoT novels are 390,000 words (TSR and LoC), ASoS and ADWD are 420,000 words. Most of the WoT books actually fall between 250,000 and 300,000. They're big but not ludicrously so.

6 seasons of 16 episodes each. 96 episodes total. 2 books per season up until Season 3 ending with Dumai's Wells. 3 books a season for the next two, then end with the last two books. Doable. Lots of scaling back, combining Aes Sedai characters, maybe trim back some of the nobles and the Asha'man machinations etc, have Faile kidnapped and rescued with, at absolute maximum, one season in between (in this plan, she'll be kidanpped in mid-Season 4 and rescued in early Season 5, so that's fine). Refocus the story on Rand and Egwene and parallel their storylines and development, really ram home the gender duality thing RJ was going for but don't do it so juvenily. Bring on board some female writers to help with that.

The biggest headache, by far, is the massive amount of location filming needed for the early books and the lack of reusable sets until later in the series, when Rand bases himself in Cairhien and Caemlyn. Everything else can be worked around, changed or simply done, but that's a killer. Reuse of standing sets is the #1 thing that pulls the budget of a TV show down from that of a movie and getting around that is going to be tough.

[fionwe1987]

This is exciting news.

I'm pretty sure we're going to get a massively truncated story. One that only resembles the books in the broad strokes. And that is fine. Frankly, a condensed story of the main six (Rand, Egwene, Mat, Nynaeve, Perrin and Elayne) can be pretty exciting. The great bonus here is that in every book, at least two of these people are together in the same arc. So focus on them, add in some critical locations/groups like the White Tower, Forsaken, the Aiel, the Seanchan and maybe Andor, and you've gotten yourself a fairly dense story but one you can keep control of.

The other major advantage over GoT is that the writers know everything there is to know. They know how varioys arcs play out. They can make editorial decisions based on which ones worked out (the White Tower Rebellion) or which ones didn't (Perrin's rescuing of Faile), and which ones need some more spicing up (Elayne's taking the throne of Andor). They can advance some storylines, condense some others, eliminate yet others, and have a story that is very familiar to readers, while also being much more compact and less sprawling than the books.

What they NEED to do is condense tertiary characters. Secondary characters are hard enough, but at least they're distinct and have distinct roles to play: Moiraine (who will be major in the first few seasons), Lan, Siuan, Elaida, Thom, Min, Aviendha, Verin. This is tier two. 

But tier three needs massive restructuring. They'll have to condense some of the Black Ajah hunters, some members of the Black Ajah itself, some of the Asha'man, etc. and bring them to the fore early. Have them play multiple roles that others do in the books, make them more distinct and more or less promote them to secondary character levels.

The Forsaken will probably have to see some cuts. For instance, if you cut out the entire Arad Doman storyline, and plop Graendal in the Rebel Camp, and don't resurrect Balthamel, it makes perfect sense. Graendal is well suited for the politics of the Aes Sedai, Arad Doman only served to show Rand's descent into darkness, and that can be done anywhere, and Aran'gar was a wasted character who died in Arad Doman anyway. 

Conveniently, there are six major Forsaken as well: Ishamael, Lanfear, Semirhage, Sammael, Graendal and Demandred. Rahvin was somewhat important early on, but it seems to make more sense to combine Sammael's story with his, and plop Sammael in Andor. This way, Andor is in play till the story reaches "Book 7", which also conveniently lines up with when Elayne goes back to claim her throne. Asmodean, Taim and Mesaana can round up the rest. 

Location wise, there are three major places I can see it worth focussing on:

The White Tower will pretty much have to be a location right from the start. The set will be too expensive to build for just a few scenes, and expanding the Tower makes a lot of sense. Many storylines can be completely cut, but still talked about in an expository manner in the Tower. Plus, some of the series' biggest shockers, like Elaida's coup and the Seanchan attack, happen at the Tower, and Elaida vs. Egwene is the central long running political story. They'd need to elaborate on this with some key secondary characters like Alviarin and Siuan. Introuduce them all early. Investing in the Tower early will pay of well, I think.

The Waste and the story of the Aiel is another of these. Focus on them, and I think their strangeness, their rich history, the possibility of their horrific fate... these can play very well on TV. They may have to promote some Aiel characters with some added story early on, like show the hunt for the Car'a'carn, etc, to invest the audience right away. 

Lastly, Andor will obviously have to be another central place. Caemlyn is at the center of a lot of the story, and that can be expanded. Dropping Sammael in there is one major thing to do.

I think if they get a bunch of writers who read the books thoroughly, and chart out the course for a 6-8 season run in the broad strokes right away, adapting WoT is eminently doable. Rand's descent to madness, and his redemption from that, and Egwene's rise to power should be the central focus, as Wert said. And that can be a fun story to watch.

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, Werthead said:

6 seasons of 16 episodes each. 96 episodes total. 2 books per season up until Season 3 ending with Dumai's Wells. 3 books a season for the next two, then end with the last two books.

Hmm... one issue is going to be juggling the climaxes. Some of them work well: Moiraine's death plus Rand's kidnapping and rescue would make great mid and end of season climaxes. But the Eye and Falme? Tear and the Waste+Two Rivers? They work less well in the same season. And these aren't things you want to cut. They'll have to work something out.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

6 seasons of 16 episodes each. 96 episodes total. 2 books per season up until Season 3 ending with Dumai's Wells. 3 books a season for the next two, then end with the last two books. Doable.

I haven't read the books but that seems like a pretty good pace.

[Spring Bass]

I went and re-read the description of Perrin's storyline to refresh on the Wheel of Time wiki. I think you could cut him completely and still keep the basic overall storyline intact, although that would piss off fans. For most of the series he's off doing his own thing anyways, rescuing Faile, etc.

[dooog]

4 minutes ago, Electric Bass said:

I went and re-read the description of Perrin's storyline to refresh on the Wheel of Time wiki. I think you could cut him completely and still keep the basic overall storyline intact, although that would piss off fans. For most of the series he's off doing his own thing anyways, rescuing Faile, etc.

Totally agree, and it would mean cutting Faile which is a win win. He was my least favourite main character by a mile, went off on a meandering subplot and ate up the chapters doing sweet fuck all. Doubt they would ever cut him though, he had an almost irrational fan following

[Humble AK]

13 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I can't see how any TV adaptation can get away with less than 150 episodes for WoT and satisfy most book fans. It's possible, I think to cut the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere, completely as they pretty much serve as roadblocks, and there are enough problems with getting the nations on the continent + the Aiel + the Aes Sedai to get together.

Well, considering in this thread alone fans are already talking excitedly about what material should be cut/condensed, I think having too much of Wheel of Time would be disappointing to most book fans.

Hey, we all like our Wheel of Time, but despite all the good stuff it had to offer it was a deeply flawed series.

I see one of two things happening in the most ideal circumstance where the network that broadcasts it goes all the way and the show isn't prematurely cancelled.

1) It gets the serious adaptation, and the show runners try to be as faithful as they can to the material. In this case it will not exceed 100 episodes, and almost certainly will be in the range of 70-90 episodes.

2) It goes to a channel that embraces the "more is more" philosophy, and it gets like 22-26 episodes a season. These channels don't give a shit about quality programming and there's basically no chance that they'll be faithful to the material. It will get the Legend of the Seeker treatment, where you have more episodes, but they basically have nothing to do with the books.

No chance at all, however successful the show turns out to be, that it's faithful and manages to be more than 100 episodes. If you're pinning your hopes on 150 episodes or more, then I think you might as well let yourself accept that the show will disappoint you.

[Steinman]

While Perrin may be the least necessary of the main characters if you start cutting, his coming back to the Two Rivers was some of the strongest sections in the series for me. I also really liked his interactions with the Children of the Light in the last books. If you don't want fundamentalists in the series and reduce/remove Padan Fain (who I think had an intriguing story up until the end of EotW) and the troubles in TR I could see them cutting Perrin.

Has no one mentioned SyFy? Could see WoT airing there.

[Astromech]

13 minutes ago, Steinman said:

While Perrin may be the least necessary of the main characters if you start cutting, his coming back to the Two Rivers was some of the strongest sections in the series for me. I also really liked his interactions with the Children of the Light in the last books. If you don't want fundamentalists in the series and reduce/remove Padan Fain (who I think had an intriguing story up until the end of EotW) and the troubles in TR I could see them cutting Perrin.

Has no one mentioned SyFy? Could see WoT airing there.

I also don't see an adaptation without Perrin. Just trim the bloat.

I'm not convinced of SyFy's resurgence yet. It has improved with recent programming, but Sharknado et al still haunt me.

[Werthead]

I doubt SyFy could afford to drop an eight figure sum on the show. That seems out of their price range, and they don't have the financial firepower per-episode that the show requires.

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I doubt SyFy could afford to drop an eight figure sum on the show. That seems out of their price range, and they don't have the financial firepower per-episode that the show requires.

Mind giving us a general clue where the eight figure number is coming from? Unless it was confidential and you can't.

I don't see why 150 episodes are needed for a faithful representation of the series. No one, no matter how rabid a fan, is going to insist on every scene being on the show. Many, many of the conversation scenes can be condensed without the story altering in any way. Same with any number of storylines. Take the Borderland rulers. We don't need to see things from their perspective at all. Just have Siuan report to Egwene the rulers disappeared with huge armies. Have Elayne meet them, then Rand. That takes away a few chapters. Same with any number of things. 

You can also, for instance, combine Gawyn and Galad (NO one will mind Gawyn not being present). Remove Berelain. Merge Amys and Sorelia. Excise the entire circus travels story for Nynaeve and Elayne... none of these are critical to remaining faithful to the tale.

And heck, if they want to get really clever, they can say the TV show is from a different turning of the Wheel. Thus, broadly similar in the big details, but the small stuff varies. That's a nice in-story explanation for any discrepancies that should satisfy the most hardcore of fans.

 

 

[Mladen]

20 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Mind giving us a general clue where the eight figure number is coming from? Unless it was confidential and you can't.

Logic, I suppose. GoT season 1 costed $60 million and there is no way WoT would be cheaper given the amount of characters, locations and yes, CGI needed for it to be reasonably solid adaptation. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets closer to nine figure number. Which is something that can be problematic for anyone involved in this.

[Werthead]

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Logic, I suppose. GoT season 1 costed $60 million and there is no way WoT would be cheaper given the amount of characters, locations and yes, CGI needed for it to be reasonably solid adaptation. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets closer to nine figure number. Which is something that can be problematic for anyone involved in this.

No, that's budget. What we're talking about is how much the actual option cost, which would be a one-off payment to the rights-holders.

And yes, that was the figure apparently being bandied around (where this was kind of an open unconfirmed secret, at least among a few people, if I'm reading these things right). It might be wrong and it might be less, but $10 million is kind of what you'd be expecting for a series of books with this kind of sales figures behind it. The $650,000 that Red Eagle paid for the rights back in 2004 was chicken feed even back then considering the popularity of the series, although there are some indications that Red Eagle's rights were never for anything more than The Eye of the World, which may explain a few other things as well.

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And heck, if they want to get really clever, they can say the TV show is from a different turning of the Wheel. Thus, broadly similar in the big details, but the small stuff varies. That's a nice in-story explanation for any discrepancies that should satisfy the most hardcore of fans.

Haha. Actually, I think they're doing something like this with the Dark Tower movie. There's going to be a shout-out to say it's not the same story (or iteration of the story) as in the books.