[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[Colonel Green]

Since people have been debating what comes next in this storyline, and I think there's some expectation here that we'll actually see this tourney, that would have to mean there's another Sansa chapter following fairly shortly on this one, since the tourney is seemingly going to start immediately, and GRRM doesn't write chapters that are chronologically close but more widely spaced. The alternative would be his more common literary technique of setting a chapter some time later and including reflections on key moments that happened prior.

[The Dragons Hand]

Harry the Heir is not at all what I expected. None of that easy charm like a troublesome child that Robert had. I wouldn't go so far as to call him shrewd, but there seems to be some wit.

[ChillyPolly]

Not sure it has been mentioned anywhere in the last 38 pages, but is it not odd that a tournament is being organized in the Vale, where Sansa is to be the center of attention, at a time when no less than three of the top warriors in Westeros are missing in action (Sandor, Brienne and Jaime) all of whom have some connection to Sansa.

[Colonel Green]

Not sure it has been mentioned anywhere in the last 38 pages, but is it not odd that a tournament is being organized in the Vale, where Sansa is to be the center of attention, at a time when no less than three of the top warriors in Westeros are missing in action (Sandor, Brienne and Jaime) all of whom have some connection to Sansa.

That is kind of funny.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, if this is any indication...

GRRM, 2/2/15, not a blog.

I think the chapter we see in TWOW, will be more polished than it is. Sample chapters have a tendency of being slightly different from the final version.

Definitely. The part about Sweetrobin's hair was almost word for word in the last Alayne chapter in Feast, for example

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

If Shadrick intended to sell information about Sansa's location to Cercei, I think he would have done it after meeting her the first time in AFFC. The fact that he's still sticking around indicates he's waiting for the right moment to abduct her (or that he's particularly slow on the uptake, which I consider unlikely.)

He might try to take her west across the Mountains of the Moon, which would put them in the vicinity of Jaime/Brienne. The mountain clans being what they are, though, he may decide to take a boat south across the Bay of Crabs, which would put them in the vicinity of a certain Gravedigger. Or he could fail altogether, and who would be responsible for that?

[James Arryn]

There has been some great chat on this thread about the numerous bits of new info we have, I have enjoyed the read.

However, reading Ran's explanation that the controversy was regarding Alayne's new sexuality, plus w/o a certain character involved, I have been surprised there are not more posts relating to Sandor. It has been noted that there is no sign of hound/dog references in this chapter, and that is certainly a departure from previous books.

To add to that, I found this interesting, regarding a previous Sansa dog/Hound reference.......'' I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard.''

Compared with......'' Outside the window she could hear the laughter of the washerwomen at the well, the din of steel on steel from the ward where the knights were at their drills. Good sounds.''

So not only is there no mention of Sandor/hounds/dogs, this seems to me another point of note. Sansa's sweet dream has been realised without the dog references.

I gotta say, I was a little disappointed with this. It was one of the things I was looking out for having missed it on first read, and have since posted with some people that helped me gain a greater understanding of that storyline. Oh well, I still enjoyed the chapter immensely ! :)

Sansa and Stannis are the 2 characters I personally see as the most injected with rather than inherently possessing those qualities/symbolism seemingly most powerful to many of their fans. I know for example that a lot of the narrative was forced to change when GRRM said in an interview that Sansa did share responsibility for Ned's death, a concept that was damn near a hanging offense prior to that because of sincere and well argued positions which portrayed that argument as indicative of a shortcoming on the part of the reader.

Watching the adjustments after GRRM's quote circulated was uncomfortable enough to witness ( so much so that I intentionally bailed on the board in the immediate wake of his recent 'original notes' because I felt for those to whom that would feel like another unwelcome blow) but it did strengthen my sense that it might not just be me missing what's there, but in fact Sansa becoming representative of a particular narrative important to some people as it reflects on their own lives. That makes th experience more powerful, but it also tends to compromise objectivity more imo, and although this includes many of the best/smartest posters here, I do see a lot stated about Symbolic Sansa that I just don't think is really present in the textual character. I personally rarely debate about my favourite characters (Jaime, Oberyn, formerly Arya, Jon) because I feel too emotionally invested and therefore lacking detachment; my debates center on more intellectualized conflicts about characters like Renly, Stannis, Rhaegar, Robb, Cat, etc, who I wouldn't consider favourites...though over time enough arguing one side kind of moves the center of balance a bit too.

Eh, I have wandered way off my point, but all this was to contextualize the sense that I have never found the Sandor/Sansa dynamic to be any where near as central/loaded as so many involved in Sansa discussions seem to. Otoh I generally get annoyed at the belief that a romantic relationship is the ultimate rendition of human affection/chemistry. I personally find stories about friendship just as or even more moving/dramatic/emblematic as romance, and the assumption that any deep connection must at some level be romantic strikes me as sophomoric and shallow, so there's also that general objection to 'ships' as a rule...but although I think it's possible that the Hound and Sansa might have some future interaction, it has never ever seemed to me either assured or terribly important.

I am much more concerned with either character's development as individuals than charting their progression towards each other, and I think all the important growth happens to people as individuals rather than as part of a couple. The ultimate journey for Sansa as a character will be alone, whether or not she is alone with someone else. Her growth won't be affirmed or capped off by some romantic final destination, imo.

Anyways, just my 2 cents, though I spent a small fortune in words getting there.

[Good Guy Garlan]

If Shadrick intended to sell information about Sansa's location to Cercei, I think he would have done it after meeting her the first time in AFFC. The fact that he's still sticking around indicates he's waiting for the right moment to abduct her (or that he's particularly slow on the uptake, which I consider unlikely.)

He might try to take her west across the Mountains of the Moon, which would put them in the vicinity of Jaime/Brienne. The mountain clans being what they are, though, he may decide to take a boat south across the Bay of Crabs, which would put them in the vicinity of a certain Gravedigger. Or he could fail altogether, and who would be responsible for that?

I don't see Shadrich getting too far on his own, though. I think he'll need to make common cause with someone else and split the money.

[Grizzly Mormont]

What is the deal with those tapestries.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I claimed that perhaps some are more ethical than LF because they don't want to manipulate the market to their own advantage, not that they want to sell now because the prices are good. LF wants to hoard to inflate prices is how I read it. Not a good thing, and LF feeding the smallfolk without extracting every last copper he can from them? Fat chance.

Hey LongRider, yeah I agree, LF is all about personal gain, money, power, control or otherwise and this shows his disregard for others as well as his cunning for maximum reward.

[tokyochojin]

Enjoyed it as it always nice to get more access into the ongoings of the Vale. It was however a bit a jarring on how so much Sansa has developed but we don't really know where in WoW it might be. Do we expect Harrold to take the Vale at somepoint or die a pretender?

[Colonel Green]

Or he could fail altogether, and who would be responsible for that?

We obviously have no idea where this story is going, but my personal opinion is that Shadrich's most likely plot function will be to attempt to abduct Sansa, fail, but in the process out her to some other parties, which will move the story forward in other ways.

The main reasoning I have for this is that it's hard to see what larger story purpose is served by spiriting her away from the Vale right now, given the amount of setup that's been put into it and the seeming importance of its role in the next phase of the story. And more specifically, Sansa's main story has been built up around Littlefinger -- he's her mentor in the game of thrones, he's a major actor in the story that she provides us a POV on, he's the man who is substantially responsible for destroying her life, he's obsessed with her to a creepy degree -- and I really don't see how it's more important that she be dragged off to King's Landing again to become a damsel in distress, or whatever else has been proposed as alternative destinations.

[Good Guy Garlan]

What is the deal with those tapestries.

I think this chapter showed that they were nothing more than another gift to keep Nestor Royce on LF's pocket

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

Not sure it has been mentioned anywhere in the last 38 pages, but is it not odd that a tournament is being organized in the Vale, where Sansa is to be the center of attention, at a time when no less than three of the top warriors in Westeros are missing in action (Sandor, Brienne and Jaime) all of whom have some connection to Sansa.

This is to be a Vale exclusive event. For one, the competitors are competing to join the Winged Knight guards, and it would be disastrous to invite knights from the other regions, as they could potentially recognise Sansa.

[Colonel Green]

This is to be a Vale exclusive event. For one, the competitors are competing to join the Winged Knight guards, and it would be disastrous to invite knights from the other regions, as they could potentially recognise Sansa.

I don't think he was suggesting that any of those people would show up at the tourney (they've all got bigger problems), just that it's noteworthy that Sansa is at a tourney when a bunch of the country's greatest warriors are looking for her elsewhere.

[Mark Antony]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'd trust Myranda as far as I could throw her. LF warned Sansa about her. The girl is ruthless, I'm calling it now, and I think she's totally capable of throwing Sansa under the bus if it meant a chance with Harry

Oh definitely, I don't trust Myranda one bit fond of the Royces though I am

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Shadric works for Varys, and I wouldn't be surprised that at this point he already passed the information of where Sansa is to Varys. Varys doesn't need to have Sansa to wreck LF's plans, all he needs is to share that information with certain people.

[Bear Claw]

I also thought this chapter had a weird feel to it, but I had the same feeling about the "Mercy" chapter. I can't quite point out the exact difference, but maybe the feeling is different because Sansa and Arya are really not themselves? I wonder if the different feeling of these chapters has something to do with the five year gap that was suppose to take place? Maybe reading the chapters on their own is what makes them seem different to me?

[AllOfTheHours]

snip

ps: is Saffron the Westeros version of a stripper name?

I immediately thought about my favorite steward: Satin. Who just so happened to be taken to the Wall from a dungeon in Gulltown... Although he was originally from Oldtown, it's a bit of a funny coincidence IMO.

I like that Sansa's game is getting better. I don't see why people hate HtH so much... From what we've seen he's not that bad of a guy. I wouldn't be happy either if I was being forced into a marriage with Littlefinger's daughter.

As for LF's plans... I dunno. People are saying he's going to kill Harry for some reason, but that makes no sense to me. Harry seduced by Sansa is his back up plan for the Vale.

Well, I think the issue is that we aren't just auditioning him to be Alayne's betrothed, but a partner who helps take back Winterfell, and (as far as anyone knows in story) the future Warden of the North (or King of the North) with Sansa as the only known living heir.

The main issue with him is the first thing he does is humiliate Alayne. Yes, she is a bastard, but the courteous thing would be to ignore her birth for the moment (like the Waynwoods did) or call her LF's "natural daughter." It was both cruel and stupid. I don't think he is a cruel person overall (not enough evidence for that) but he isn't tactful or courteous (essential for a good lord) and he insults possible allies. So far he's not, IMO, future Lord of Winterfell material. If Ned or Robb were in the same situation, they might not have been happy but they would have been coldly formal or cautiously courteous. They wouldn't have humiliated and dishonored the poor girl.

Furthermore, the way he talks about his past lovers. That Alys's mother became fat as a cow giving birth to his child, so he abandoned her with disgust, and let whoever was around in Lady Waynwood's guard have her. Even if he didn't love her and wasn't attracted to her, he was callous, and has no shame is sharing how callous he was.

As far as Saffron goes, I thought the purpose of making her the daughter of a merchant, in some ways, was to compare HtH and Robb. Jeyne was descended from merchants, her mother Sybell Spicer's grandfather sold "saffron and pepper." The Lannisters wouldn't marry into the Westerlings anymore because they were too lowly with merchant blood, but Robb did to keep the honor of the girl he bedded in case she got pregnant. HtH was in the same situation, and chose to "dishonor" Saffron and let her carry a bastard while he kept his options open for a better match. He's kinda an anti-Robb in that way.

Is HtH awful? Honestly he's probabally no worse than hundreds of other lords. I don't even think he's the worst. And he's practically as pure as a dove compared to Joffrey or Ramsey. I think he's ok for a short term betrothal. But would I really want him to marry Sansa, be the father of Ned's grandkids, and possibly rule in the North (if Rickon and Bran don't come back)? I'm rather apprehensive. But who knows he could develop into a real gem with time and redeem himself. :dunno:

[James Arryn]

I also thought this chapter had a weird feel to it, but I had the same feeling about the "Mercy" chapter. I can't quite point out the exact difference, but maybe the feeling is different because Sansa and Arya are really not themselves? I wonder if the different feeling of these chapters has something to do with the five year gap that was suppose to take place? Maybe reading the chapters on their own is what makes them seem different to me?

I didn't get the same sense here, but I did feel distanced from the Mercy chapter, so I get what people mean. It's hard to say how much of the tone is polished up in the later process.