Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[Matthew.]

A thought experiment, which may be worth your while:

History is written by the victor(s). And our primary source for the idea that "R+L"... is Robert Baratheon. He's tall. He's formidable in battle. He's the king, after he takes out the Targs. And most of all... he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

So, what if he's wrong? What if he's completely off-base with his memory / assumption of what happened to Lyanna, back in the day - and always was? We don't know what evidence he had to convince him she was kidnapped. In fact, it's dubitable that he would have required evidence at all - so perhaps we shouldn't assume there was any to begin with.

If Robert (the "victor," in a direct sense) were eliminated as a source for the argument that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark... then what independent evidence for that story would remain to us? Would there be any at all? Would it be convincing, in any way, of the notion that R+L=J?

Barristan, who believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and was on the losing side of the war; Ned's memories, which implicitly link Lyanna with the aftermath of the Trident and the Sack (eg, having "Promise me..." echo in his head when it's discussed); Cersei laments that, had she married Rhaegar, he'd "never have looked twice at the wolf girl." We have no idea what the source for the abduction story is, but it's the default interpretation of the entire realm, and never does GRRM offer alternatives or red herrings that suggest it didn't happen.

Edit: Additionally, Edric Dayne claims to be milk brothers with Jon Snow via Wylla, so if Lyanna is indeed his mother, that places her likely location in Dorne.

[JNR]

If Robert (the "victor," in a direct sense) were eliminated as a source for the argument that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark... then what independent evidence for that story would remain to us? Would there be any at all? Would it be convincing, in any way, of the notion that R+L=J?

To play devil's advocate, there would still remain Rhaegar's behavior in snubbing his wife in favor of Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty.

There would still remain the synchronization of his apparent disappearance with hers, a year later. Awfully hard to believe that's a coincidence.

And there would still remain her reappearance in a tower that, according to her brother Ned, was said to have been given a name by Rhaegar, while she was in the company of three of Rhaegar's pet KG.

These are dots on a chronological line; GRRM is certainly inviting his readers to connect them by imagining some sort of narrative.

The problem is that most readers want to do so in a profoundly obvious way, and GRRM is really just not a profoundly obvious storyteller.

[Joe Pine]

The Year of the False Spring entry is what I was referring to with the line

"Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved - and half the realm besides."

Since The Inn is located very near Harrenhal, I thought the inn would be an apt setting for Lyanna's dissapearance.

Catelyn's run-in with Tyrion is one of the main occurrences I thought of too. Along with Arya and the Hound's meet up with Polliver and co., Joffrey and Arya's confrontation, Brienne's ordeal where Gendry steps, and many more I believe.

It's a location visited many times throughout the story.

Is that the inn where Arya (I think) sees an abandoned rotten rowing boat on the way?

Edit to add, the boat has been speculated as how R&L got to the Isle of Faces for a northern style wedding at a tree.... (of course..)

[Joe Pine]

Barristan, who believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and was on the losing side of the war; Ned's memories, which implicitly link Lyanna with the aftermath of the Trident and the Sack (eg, having "Promise me..." echo in his head when it's discussed); Cersei laments that, had she married Rhaegar, he'd "never have looked twice at the wolf girl." We have no idea what the source for the abduction story is, but it's the default interpretation of the entire realm, and never does GRRM offer alternatives or red herrings that suggest it didn't happen.

Edit: Additionally, Edric Dayne claims to be milk brothers with Jon Snow via Wylla, so if Lyanna is indeed his mother, that places her likely location in Dorne.

Using the Woiaf app, Nightsong, Kingsgrave, Blackhaven and Blackmont and Vulture's Roost seem nearest with Highgarden also visible in that part of the map.

Kingsgrave seems nearest, the app has no information on House Manwoody who are there.

The place names were subject to speculation if I recall Night Song Kings Grave.. Etc etc

Edit to add, entry on the Red Mountains makes reference to Lyanna dying in the mountains(?)

There looks to be a range of mountains between the Prince's pass where the TOJ is at the head of, and Dayne territory at High Hermitage. It's not clear if there's a pass that would give access to Blackmont and the river that leads to High Hermitage and Starfall

[WeaselPie]

Using the Woiaf app, Nightsong, Kingsgrave, Blackhaven and Blackmont and Vulture's Roost seem nearest with Highgarden also visible in that part of the map.

Kingsgrave seems nearest, the app has no information on House Manwoody who are there.

The place names were subject to speculation if I recall Night Song Kings Grave.. Etc etc

Edit to add, entry on the Red Mountains makes reference to Lyanna dying in the mountains(?)

There looks to be a range of mountains between the Prince's pass where the TOJ is at the head of, and Dayne territory at High Hermitage. It's not clear if there's a pass that would give access to Blackmont and the river that leads to High Hermitage and Starfall

Interesting, I don't have that app.

Would be cool to hear which info in the app is different from the info in the Wiki and other sources.

[Joe Pine]

Oddly, one of the scenarios that fits is a falling out between Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne.

IE Arthur is upset over the kidnapping and treatment of Lyanna so there's a fight between them. Rhaegar heads back to KL. Arthur and KG hide out at TOJ with Lyanna. They sulk at the tower of joy like Achilles in the Iliad.

A + L = J?

How about Rhaegar bedding Ashara Dayne and getting her pregnant? That'd upset Arthur?

Edit for formatting

[Joe Pine]

Interesting, I don't have that app.

Would be cool to hear which info in the app is different from the info in the Wiki and other sources.

It's a stripped down version of world book, was £4.99 UK price for the all spoilers version up to end ADwD

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...We have no idea what the source for the abduction story is, but it's the default interpretation of the entire realm...

Is it? If so, why? If it were not accurate, could it still have become the default interpretation of the entire realm?

Barristan, who believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and was on the losing side of the war; Ned's memories, which implicitly link Lyanna with the aftermath of the Trident and the Sack (eg, having "Promise me..." echo in his head when it's discussed); Cersei laments that, had she married Rhaegar, he'd "never have looked twice at the wolf girl."

This support is provided in book 5 (Selmy) and book 4 (Cersei). Does that mean there was no independent evidence for "R+L" until 2005?

[MaesterSam]

Jeez this is moving fast today. Go away for a couple of hours and it's two pages later... but good stuff being discussed here!

Thanks for all those quotes wm7. There is a good bit to be gleaned from it.
Just circling back to the last thread or two...
Frey family reunion has brought up Howland Reed and his possible part in Lyanna's story in another thread and maybe Heresy too. (I can't recall how much was in which thread and all that.) Adding to that, MaesterSam mentioned the Isle of Faces in relation to Lyanna or Rhaegar and it does seem possible that Howland could have promised Lyanna a visit to the Isle that would lead her to be vulnerable to abduction so near Harrenhal and the Isle. It's not exactly necessary for the story, but is intriguing.
Saying that, I do think the info from the world book about Lyanna's dissapearance is meant to suggest the Inn at the Crossroads (or very nearby) where quite a few goings-on have occured in the story proper.

What I like about tying in the Isle of Faces is that it gives Lyanna a reason to be down there. And has planted the seeds of a new theory in my mind, which will need developing but it begins with the possibility that Howland Reed was with her. After all, if she wanted to go to the Isle, who better to take her there? The two of them got along well at Harrenhal, and Howland owed her a favor. I'll leave it at that for now, but stay tuned. ;)

I still haven't retrieved my copy of the World Book from elder son's cave so don't recall exactly what was said about the place of Lyanna's abduction but it would certainly be ironic if it arose from a chance met encounter at the inn, just as Tyrion was later to be snatched by Catelyn: Indeed such an encounter would explain a lot if Lyanna came breezing in with all the thoughtful carelessness of youth and recognised the hooded figure huddled conspiratorial like in the corner as the dashing Prince Rhaegar who was supposed to be in Kings Landing.

The WB really just states that it was "not ten leagues from Harrenhal" that Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna and thereby started the events that would tear the realm apart. I wish we knew who provided this information. If the location is known to that much detail, it appears there was at least one witness (or at least one person claiming to be). But who?

Carrying from other thread...

MaesterSam, yes, I do believe that there is a Rhaegar/Reed/IoF connection that doesn't involve polygamous 2nd marriages and wandering septons and all that. I've never really understood how it came to be that a woods witch, a child of the forest, could appear at court with Jenny of Oldstones and deliver a prophetic statement that two Targaryen kings and one crown prince could take so seriously that they bend their dynasty to it. Why would the blood of old Valyria give two figs about some rubbish spouted by some eccentric fairy woman? And what concern does the eccentric fairy woman have with the blood of old Valyria anyway? Why does she give a hoot what the Targaryne royal family does or doesn't do? The children of the forest/old gods and the dragonlords without dragons, ne'er the twain should meet, right?

Which leads me to believe that, in order for her prophecy to carry any weight with Jaehaerys, they did meet.....and will meet again...and somehow the epicenter of everything is there at the God's Eye Whatever the woods witch foretold that day, it resonated - and I firmly believe that this was backed up by whatever Rhaegar found in the scrolls years later and was why he set out for the Riverlands with his Band of Seven in the dead of winter.

If you have the Maps book and use the 100 league-length of the Wall for scale, there's only one noteable location "ten leagues from Harrenhal" where supposedly Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna: the Isle of Faces. IMO that was his ultimate destination, though it had nothing to do with getting hitched in a secret tree ceremony.

I agree, it's weird that a CotF would spend her life chillin' with the Targaryens. Then again, as has been discussed before, their dragon bond has a skinchanger-like quality to it- so maybe they are not as foreign to the CotF as one might assume? Part of the reason it's counterintuitive is that we tend to associate the CotF with ice, and Targs with fire. But the Children used to live everywhere, including warm places. And the Ghost of High Heart (possibly the same woods witch that was at Summerhall) seems to have no problem with Thoros and his fires either.

While I also agree that the God's Eye is a reasonable destination that would have brought them both to the Harrenhal area, I'm not sure how I feel about prophecy leading him there. B/c things were already a little "off" at the Harrenhal tourney, IMO. The fantastic performance, crowning Lyanna... Rhaegar was already acting "out of character". And hurting his chances of gathering allies against Aerys, which he did intend to do.

Here's Jaime:

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on

his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

So the rumors were true. Rhaegar meant to call a council, "long ago". Presumably at Harrenhal then. But Aerys came along and ruined it? Or did something else happen?

[Joe Pine]

The river linking Starfall, High Hermitage and Blackmont is called the Torrentine, described in the WB as 'roaring, tumultuous river', so possibly not an easy boat ride from Blackmont.

On House Manwoody, an excert to the main text describes the Kings that Nymeria sent to the wall, one is Albin of House Manwoody, 'a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains'

I guess these guys are 'Stony Dornish' if that makes any difference.

[Matthew.]

Is it? If so, why? If it were not accurate, could it still have become the default interpretation of the entire realm?

The WB, in a section known to be written by GRRM, characterizes Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna as "a tale too well-known to warrant repeating." Plus, nobody in text is offering up their alternatives, even in the North.

This support is provided in book 5 (Selmy) and book 4 (Cersei). Does that mean there was no independent evidence for "R+L" until 2005?

Daenerys, in aGoT:

___

"Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved."

___

Daenerys, in aSoS:

___

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. "Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late." She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. "If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl."

___

An assumption she surely received from Viserys, or the Targ loyalists that helped them escape. Victors, losers, both agree that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

To play devil's advocate, there would still remain Rhaegar's behavior in snubbing his wife in favor of Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty.

There would still remain the synchronization of his apparent disappearance with hers, a year later. Awfully hard to believe that's a coincidence.

And there would still remain her reappearance in a tower that, according to her brother Ned, was said to have been given a name by Rhaegar, while she was in the company of three of Rhaegar's pet KG.

These are dots on a chronological line; GRRM is certainly inviting his readers to connect them by imagining some sort of narrative...

So, here's what we've got:

1. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna QoLaB at Harrenhal. Remarkably queer behavior for an otherwise married prince of the realm.

2. A narrative gap in which Martin withholds information accounting for the whereabouts of either Rhaegar or Lyanna.

3. Ned's rediscovery of Lyanna, apparently (though not indisputably) at Rhaegar's tower of joy.

I agree with you that GRRM is inviting his readers to connect the dots. My question is whether the invitation would seem nearly so persuasive, absent the forceful rape allegations presented by Robert in chapter 12 (well before any of the 3 points outlined above were made available to the reader). I think it would not.

[ViserionsFire]

On the way to Kings Landing to be Robert's "Hand", in the Barrowlands, Ned informs Robert how Kings Landing was taken after the battle at the Trident. Until then, Robert thought that it was his men that had taken KL. It wasn’t until this exchange that Robert became aware that it was Lannister troops that took the city.

I thought that it was common knowledge that it was Lannister troops that took KL. It seems as if everyone knew that The Mountain took Aegon and bashed his head against a wall and raped Elia before mutilating her. So, why wasn’t Robert aware that Lannister troops had taken Kings Landing prior to Ned and the rest of Robert’s army coming to it? To me, this confirms that Ned didn’t go to Kings Landing when he was returning from the Tower of Joy. Why was it so important for Ned to bypass Kings Landing where his best friend who he grew up with would be crowned King. Where he, being the primary commander under Robert and Jon Arryn would be given great honor, and where they could both grieve the loss of Lyanna. Instead, Ned takes a newborn child to Winterfell far from anyone of note.

[JNR]

I agree with you that GRRM is inviting his readers to connect the dots. My question is whether the invitation would seem nearly so persuasive, absent the forceful rape allegations presented by Robert in chapter 12 (well before any of the 3 points outlined above were made available to the reader). I think it would not.

So you're making the case that Robert had some sort of clout, or authority, to spread his version in the years prior AGOT?

Just because he was the victor of his eponymous rebellion, and he became Robert, First of his Name, King of the Andals and the First Men and the Rhoynar, Lord of Westeros, and Protector of the Realm?

Crazy talk, man.

[wolfmaid7]

A side note and interesting fact about the TOJ and the "naming" of it. The text we do have concerning that reads thus:

"It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory."

As seen from Ned's statement all that is known was Rhaegar calling the place "tower of joy."There is no indication of when he might have called it that in relation to anything having to do with Lyanna or events at that time.There also seems to be a common place attituide about the name it was something that people said.Who said so and when :dunno:

But it seems prudent not to jump and associate Rhaegar naming the place because of Lyanna.It may have had good memories for him i have no doubt but what those memories are.We can't say.

[WeaselPie]

The river linking Starfall, High Hermitage and Blackmont is called the Torrentine, described in the WB as 'roaring, tumultuous river', so possibly not an easy boat ride from Blackmont.

On House Manwoody, an excert to the main text describes the Kings that Nymeria sent to the wall, one is Albin of House Manwoody, 'a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains'

I guess these guys are 'Stony Dornish' if that makes any difference.

Who were the other 4 kings? Can you find that information? Very curious... thanks!

[MaesterSam]

(...)

We do have the precedent of a noble woman bringing her own Maester along. Cat brings Luwin to Winterfell, of course.

But what of Walys Flowers, Lyanna's own Maester, who disappeared around the same time as she did? The same Walys Flowers who is related to Gerold Hightower.

Wait, what?! Sounds intriguing, please do elaborate. :)

A thought experiment, which may be worth your while:

History is written by the victor(s). And our primary source for the idea that "R+L"... is Robert Baratheon. He's tall. He's formidable in battle. He's the king, after he takes out the Targs. And most of all... he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

So, what if he's wrong? What if he's completely off-base with his memory / assumption of what happened to Lyanna, back in the day - and always was? We don't know what evidence he had to convince him she was kidnapped. In fact, it's dubitable that he would have required evidence at all - so perhaps we shouldn't assume there was any to begin with.

If Robert (the "victor," in a direct sense) were eliminated as a source for the argument that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark... then what independent evidence for that story would remain to us? Would there be any at all? Would it be convincing, in any way, of the notion that R+L=J?

Exactly. This is my current focus as well- we have seen NO evidence that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. None. Except several POVs tell us this happened, but none of them were there. So how do they know? Who is "the mystery witness?"

Well if you are serious about being open for new ideas...

We are given every indication that Lyanna is more like Arya than Sansa, yet no one has any issue with the idea of Lyanna falling head over heels for a married man because he dropped a crown of roses in her lap. If Lyanna was like Sansa yes, but if she is like Arya, doubtful. Arya would have more in common with a butcher's boy than a crowned prince or in this case, I think with a funny little crannogman, whom unlike Rhaegar she actually develops a relationship with.

Lyanna comes to Howland's rescue with a tourney sword, brings him back to her family, and tends his wounds. Then probably inspired by a song of love, honor and a mystery knight, dons her Knight of the Laughing Tree disguise and defends Howland's honor in the tourney. Despite all of this, the reader never thinks to connect the two as a romantic relationship. Now let's reverse their genders, if Princess Reed was being beset by some hooligans and Ser Stark came to her rescue, brought her back to his family, tended her wounds and then fought for her honor in the tourney, wouldn't the reader perhaps wonder if there may be a romantic relationship blooming between the two? But Martin easily disguises this by relying on the reader's natural assumptions about romantic pairings in a fantasy series. The stud who wins the tourney and gives the lady a crown must be the romantic partner right? Even though there has been no actual real relationship develop between the two.

Rhaegar then returns to his island fortress to be present for the birth of his child, whom he labels the Prince that was Promised. In the meantime what was Lyanna up to? Is it possible that she maintains her relationship with Howland during the intervening months? We also know that when Rhaegar and his six friends finally head to the Riverlands to locate Lyanna she is ten leagues from Harrenhall. Now this is three months (at least) after the Harrenhal tourney, what is Lyanna still doing there? My guess is if Lyanna wanted to follow her heart as opposed to her father's political plans for her then she and Howland could have been secretly married in front of a weirwood. Now it just so happens that in the middle of the lake adjacent to Harrenhal, is the Isle of Faces with a number of Weirwoods who have had practice in witnessing a pact. Howland brings her to the Isle of Faces and marry in front of the same Weirwoods that initially witnessed the pact between the First Men and the Children. My guess is this is the island where Lyanna conceives Jon (and Meera), and after they leave the Isle, perhaps is when Rhaegar and company come upon her (and possibly Howland). Which may be why Brandon is convinced that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

(...)

I really like the early part of this. I have just recently begun to wonder about Howland and Lyanna. Whether or not they were romantically involved is hard to say, but I am thinking more and more that she was in that location b/c she was either meeting him or they were already hanging out together. The plan being, probably, to visit the IoF.

Ok so then it gets fuzzy. Lyanna disappears, and by all accounts is not seen again until Ned finds her in Dorne. [Are we 100% sure he found her in Dorne? Could the order of events be: 1) TOJ, kill the KG, 2) Go to Starfall, drop off Dawn and maybe pick up a baby, and 3) find Lyanna somewhere entirely different later on?? Is there text that says she died in Dorne?]

So where is she in the meantime? Isle of Faces seems reasonable, with Howland. What's Rhaegar doing in the meantime? I don't know. But he too "could not be found." I don't know how likely it is that all three of them were hanging out. Probably not that likely. Rhaegar also had his six friends with him, didn't he?

Long story short, it seems likely that Howland told the Starks Lyanna had been kidnapped. He may or may not have left out his own involvement. He may or may not have been truthful. We assume Howland is a close friend to the Starks, because Ned believed him to be. But we know Ned is a little gullible, and we know nothing about Howland Reed. Except that he was the only one besides Ned to survive the TOJ, and that he somehow saved Ned's life. I think I am going to take a closer look at him, see what comes up...

[Joe Pine]

So, here's what we've got:

1. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna QoLaB at Harrenhal. Remarkably queer behavior for an otherwise married prince of the realm.

1a, the Starks demand her return, are summoned to KL and then are killed there. (A few months)

1b, Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert start the rebellion.

2. A narrative gap in which Martin withholds information accounting for the whereabouts of either Rhaegar or Lyanna.

2b. Roberts Rebellion in full swing after banners raised etc

2c. Campaigning/Rebellion

2d. battle of Ruby Ford (Rhaegar defeated)

2e. Death of Aerys, Sack of Kings Landing.

3. Ned's rediscovery of Lyanna, apparently (though not indisputably) at Rhaegar's tower of joy.

I agree with you that GRRM is inviting his readers to connect the dots. My question is whether the invitation would seem nearly so persuasive, absent the forceful rape allegations presented by Robert in chapter 12 (well before any of the 3 points outlined above were made available to the reader). I think it would not.

I think an approximate timeline of events is possible, but obviously without Rhaegar and Lyanna and assuming them in Dorne.

Edit for format.

[Joe Pine]

Who were the other 4 kings? Can you find that information? Very curious... thanks!

I'm not sure how much to quote as I'm sure Mr Martin and his co-writers won't want big parts in the forum, but one was a Dayne and called 'Sword of the Evening'. Which I presume not to be a mistake and raises the 'Darkstar' name in my head, but maybe it's just a typo/edit error.

[WeaselPie]

Wait, what?! Sounds intriguing, please do elaborate. :)

Walys Flowers, bastard son of an Archmaester and Hightower girl, was the Maester at Winterfell. I don't know his relation to Gerold, but it always struck me as odd that GRRM made that particular decision... why a Hightower bastard? Why an Archmaester's bastard?

Barbrey Dustin tells Theon all about how influential Maester Walys was to Lord Rickard. Perhaps he was influential in an even broader sense. If he pushed Rickard's Southron ambitions, maybe Lyanna was part of the plan *shrug*

He went missing around the same time Lyanna disappeared/Rickard and Brandon died. I read a small blurb somewhere that he was presumed dead. But not in Winterfell, which meant he left Winterfell, and as a Maester is sworn to his Castle, this is a red flag to me.

Either way, we know Cat brought Luwin to Winterfell, since Robb was born in Riverrun, and Cat tells us he delivered all her children.