Sword of the Morgan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The Tower of Joy and what transpired there at the end of Robert's Rebellion is one of the biggest mysteries in ASOIAF. What information we do have came from a fever dream, which is perhaps not the most reliable of sources. However, even considering that factor, what we do "know" about the events that transpired there when Ned arrived is filled with oddities. This is not a post about the promise or Jon Snow, and it's not a theory, just a series of questions based on odd things about what we know concerning a fateful day at this tower in Dorne. The first thing I have a hard time swallowing is that Ned and his six friends took down a group of three that included at least two renowned warriors (Dayne, Hightower), one of which may have been the best warrior in Westeros at the time (Dayne). Ned qualifies this somewhat by saying that Howland Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne. There has been much speculation on what this means, and I have to think that he was not simply referring to Howland helping him to fight off the Sword of the Morning. So there's the first oddity. The second oddity is that it appears Ned found his sister in the tower accompanied by multiple people. We can probably assume that Howland was one of them (as he is a known survivor of the conflict), but who else would discover Lyanna in her bed of blood with Ned? I've seen it theorized that this simply refers to Wylla the wetnurse/midwife or another servant, but wouldn't they already be in the tower taking care of Lyanna, as she is essentially dying, and not entering with Ned? This seems fishy if everyone else we know by name is supposedly dead from the conflict outside. Another thing I find odd is that Ned pulls down the entire tower. Why would he do this? Some people have said that it was to create the cairns for the dead bodies, but I'll deal with this in the next paragraph. Aside from that, what purpose would be served by taking down this tower, and how could he do it with such little help? I don't buy Howland using magic to do it, because we know far too little about him to make such assumptions. I've also read theories that the servants at the tower helped pull it down. However, I have a major problem with all the mentions of servants I have seen. First of all, I don't see Rhaegar wanting a lot of servants around. He would go and sleep in the ruins of Summerhall by himself, so he was obviously a pretty independent man that didn't need to be doted on at all times, and Lyanna was a wild child that didn't need to be primped and whatnot. But OK, let's say that there were enough servants to help pull down the tower...then what happened to them? If Ned is protecting some huge secret of Lyanna's, could he really risk having a bunch of people know about it? He's not the kind of person to just kill the servants to protect the secret, but he also couldn't have a bunch of Targaryen loyalists running around with important knowledge (potentially regarding an heir to the IT). All in all, this pulling down the tower thing strikes me as odd. And then there are the cairns. This is very strange to me. Why bury all the deceased men there? Ned is a traditionalist and a man of honor, so returning the bones of the dead (especially those of his compatriots) should be important to him, one would think. He even makes multiple stops along the way at places that he would return some of the bones to. He brings Dawn to Starfall, and also returns William Dustin's horse. Why wouldn't he at least bring the bones of Dayne and Dustin back if he was going to stop at their homes anyway? Was this to avoid playing favorites? I just don't get it, and it smells fishy. Also, has anyone gone to the site of the tower and found the cairns since then? Why didn't family members seek out the Cairns and try to recover the bones of their kin? Surely the bones would be buried with a banner or some clothes that could identify which grave is which, right? And why does the Dayne family seem to hold Ned in such high regard? Again, just seems odd. Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone from the Tower conflict is still alive and there is some grand conspiracy surrounding the Tower of Joy, but it does seem possible, even if extremely unlikely. Like I said, this is not a theory. I just wanted to bring up some of the things about the Tower of Joy that bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonking Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Another thing I find odd is that Ned pulls down the entire tower. Why would he do this? Some people have said that it was to create the cairns for the dead bodies, but I'll deal with this in the next paragraph. Aside from that, what purpose would be served by taking down this tower, and how could he do it with such little help? I don't buy Howland using magic to do it, because we know far too little about him to make such assumptions. I've also read theories that the servants at the tower helped pull it down. However, I have a major problem with all the mentions of servants I have seen. First of all, I don't see Rhaegar wanting a lot of servants around. He would go and sleep in the ruins of Summerhall by himself, so he was obviously a pretty independent man that didn't need to be doted on at all times, and Lyanna was a wild child that didn't need to be primped and whatnot. But OK, let's say that there were enough servants to help pull down the tower...then what happened to them? If Ned is protecting some huge secret of Lyanna's, could he really risk having a bunch of people know about it? He's not the kind of person to just kill the servants to protect the secret, but he also couldn't have a bunch of Targaryen loyalists running around with important knowledge (potentially regarding an heir to the IT). All in all, this pulling down the tower thing strikes me as odd. Many people here have trouble understanding how small and flimsy real medival castles really were, especially something thats only referred to as 'tower'. Smash a few holes into the wall, wrap ropes through and let the horses pull and the tower will collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon The Black Dragon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The first thing I have a hard time swallowing is that Ned and his six friends took down a group of three that included at least two renowned warriors (Dayne, Hightower), one of which may have been the best warrior in Westeros at the time (Dayne). Ned qualifies this somewhat by saying that Howland Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne. There has been much speculation on what this means, and I have to think that he was not simply referring to Howland helping him to fight off the Sword of the Morning. So there's the first oddity. I would say the 3 KG's put up a hell of a fight. Being out numbered they still killed 5 of them and almost made it 6. Not really seeing this as a oddity. Even the Dragonknight who was a great swordsmen was killed when he was outnumbered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Many people here have trouble understanding how small and flimsy real medival castles really were, especially something thats only referred to as 'tower'. Smash a few holes into the wall, wrap ropes through and let the horses pull and the tower will collapse. Stop asking how. Start asking why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Why is it so hard to believe that 7 can beat 3? Being a Kingsguard member does not make you superhuman. Gerold Hightower has been made Lord Commander 25 years earlier. He was likely in his 60's. Whent also may have been past his peak as Barristan, who was in his 40's during RR, remembers Whents older brother as 'old man Whent'. What we have here is the greatest knight in the realm and two knights past their best versus 7 warriors of the North who, 5 at least, has as good training as their Southern counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearFacesNorth Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Six against three is still a very hard fight for even KGs. They aren't superhuman. They have to hold a shield and sword and fend up to 2 people at a time in that fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion13 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 We try to put the puzzle together without all the pieces, with regards to the ToJ incident. And the few pieces we have, as you stated, come from a fever dream. I always assumed Ned was being beaten by Dayne when the sneaky, frog eater Howland possibly hamstrung him, saving Ned's life; Not very honorable but necessary. The Tower of Joy is always depicted as a smaller structure. So weakening one area of stone, then tying the remaining horses to it and pulling the wall down is probable. Wall falls, tower follows.Now the cairns never made sense to me either. And burying some and returning others, or their property only brings more questions. Although, we have a living witness, as yet unseen in Reed and a POV tied in to the weirnet so I believe all will be revealed in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 ToJ was not Orthanc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don´t think it was a melee. Being led by Ned, probably the KG fought a single guy a time, honorably. He, Ned, was perhaps injured and healed by Howland. I wouldn´t go for the most crackpot theory in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark_Tamer Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This is entirely speculation, but... I would agree that Rhaegar would have kept the tower sparsely staffed--maybe just one person... or maybe NONE. If Lyanna went into labor early she might have been there with just the King's Guard... then going into labor, perhaps Arthur Dayne (the guy closest to home and whose house had rule in the area) went to fetch the midwife. While gone, Ned and company arrive and take up the fight... Arthur arrives to join, but then Howland CONVINCES Arthur Ned just wants to save Lyanna--they go in, baby born and Lyanna dying and Ned and Arthur strike some sort of deal whereby Arthur will "be dead" to sell the story that the King's Guard was thoroughly defeated so Ned can then hide the heir. They have to destroy the tower and hide the bodies or one will be noted missing. (also destroying the evidence of the birth)... Then Wylla rides with Ned and Howland to Starfell and Arthur disappears "to protect the heir from the new king" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Winning a 7 on 3 fight does not seem odd at all. Anyone who thinks so is used to Hollywood fights where a hero's fighting abilities drastically increases depending on how badly he is outnumbered. A one-on-one battle is where you demonstrate your superior skill. A two-on-one battle is where you run away. Yes there is something weird about the extra person at the Tower of Joy, the "they" who found Ned (Howland and who else?). This must be someone significant to Ned, or he would not think of him being present even though he does not remember the scene. It must be someone has since died, since, of his companions, only he and Howland ever lived to ride away. My guess is Lord Willam Dustin. We keep being reminded of him in the books, and particularly, of Lady Dustin's grudge over Ned's failure to return his bones. His magnificient horse, which Ned took with him when he rode north, underscores the fact that Lord Dustin never "rode away" even if he survived longer than we suspect. Interestingly, there were 8 cairns at the TOJ, but 9 bodies. Most people would explain away the descrepancy by saying that Ned took Lyanna's body north. But that makes little sense. One does not ride around with one's sister's decaying corpse in summertime. You would make a cairn for the body to protect the bones, and retrieve it later. I suppose you could speculate that he burned the flesh off her bones, before transporting her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 <snip> Interestingly, there were 8 cairns at the TOJ, but 9 bodies. Most people would explain away the descrepancy by saying that Ned took Lyanna's body north. But that makes little sense. One does not ride around with one's sister's decaying corpse in summertime. You would make a cairn for the body to protect the bones, and retrieve it later. I suppose you could speculate that he burned the flesh off her bones, before transporting her. Hmmm, Targaryen funeral customs call for burning the body and Lyanna's was the only one rendered down to bones. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Interestingly, there were 8 cairns at the TOJ, but 9 bodies. Most people would explain away the descrepancy by saying that Ned took Lyanna's body north. But that makes little sense. One does not ride around with one's sister's decaying corpse in summertime. You would make a cairn for the body to protect the bones, and retrieve it later. I suppose you could speculate that he burned the flesh off her bones, before transporting her. I've always thought the most logical thing would have been for Ned to come back north after the ToJ via ship - Starfall to White Harbor :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've always thought the most logical thing would have been for Ned to come back north after the ToJ via ship - Starfall to White Harbor :dunno: He'd still have to transport her body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think Sam did something with Aemon´s body when he died, to keep it from decay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Nothing really seems out of place to me. Why would you entrust Knights to deliver a baby? It seems clear to me there would have been 2 servants, good points have been made before about squires as well. As for pulling the tower down, Ned fought a whole war to save his sister only to find her dying and loose his 3rd family member to the conflict, is it really out of the question that he wanted to simply destroy the place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've always thought the most logical thing would have been for Ned to come back north after the ToJ via ship - Starfall to White Harbor :dunno: From the talk that Lyanna's death is what reconciled Ned and Robert, it doesn't sound like he went directly home (which would look really suspicious anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This is an interesting question! That stuff has been bugging me in the back of my mind...One problem with an Arthur Dayne is still alive theory is that Ashara threw herself from the Tower for some reason, usually assumed to be Arthur's death. And there's no way Ashara could be alive. ;)Actually I've always thought Lemore was Ashara, although I haven't looked at all the details recently to see if it's really confirmed in the text. Anyway, that seems a bit crackpot - I don't really see Arthur Dayne breaking his vow in any way, and I don't see where he could be hiding in the story. BUT, the whole thing about the one fewer cairns than needed certainly screams out "secret." I've also always assumed there was a couple servants there, perhaps one who could turn up and verify Jon's parentage, and that was the "they" Ned was referring to. It's certainly intended to be mysterious. I will ponder this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think Sam did something with Aemon´s body when he died, to keep it from decay. The crew of the Cinnamon Wind packed Aemon's corpse in a barrel of rum (and apparently then made off with it for some sinister purpose). You can do things like that on a ship. But it is hard to ride around on horseback carrying a barrel of rum large enough to hold a corpse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion13 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I believe the 'they' that found him still holding Lyanna included an as yet unnamed person or people. And as far as Wylla, she still lives, correct? At Starfall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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