Aegon will be loved, Dany will be Hated

[Ser Creighton]

Aegon's regime will be popular to begin with. If they marry, Aegon and Arianne would be the golden couple to the Smallfolk. But I could imagine its popularity plummetting with Jon Connington, Tyene, and Nymeria commanding death squads, and carrying out massive purges of anyone associated with the Lannisters and Baratheons. Jon Con has "supped on hate" for nearly 20 years, and the Sand Snakes live for vengeance.

If Dany leads an army West, and Volantis goes up in flames, then I'm sure there'll be refugees bringing tales of horror to Westeros. And, I don't doubt that her "murder" of Viserys would feature heavily in government propaganda.

Are you saying she murdered Viserys or are you saying they will say she murdered Viserys? I don't think we get Dany at Volantis personally, I think there fleet gets delt with and that they seem to be set up for their own slave uprising. There is indication in Tyrion's chapters that the slave owners of Volantis are concerned about the slaves rebelling all on there own without Dany she is sgiving them inspiration too and so are the Red priests. Qarth, Meereen, Yunkai, the Dothraki etc... Seems like an already full plate for her character and Martin may address Volantis in a different manner given what is in the books and what we have learned from Tyrions POV of the situation there. If her army breaks there army which is suppose to be coming to Meereen you probably get a rebellion. One of the ruling parties that was deposed may also make a political move to gain power and save themselves by demanding slavery be abolished at just the right time. Not so much because they believe it, but it would be historically accurate that when in danger slavers often suddenly find abolition.

I honestly think Martin will handle each situation differently not just because it would make things faster but it's better writing if you don't repeat everything over and over. We saw him do this with Astapor, Meereen and Yunkai. I think he will continue that so the beats are not overly repetative, you know there are a lot of upcoming battles he will probably take a different approach to writing all of them. the slaves need courage and hope to rise up and if and when Dany returns and the army of Volantis gets defeated at Meereen that is going to give them a lot of hope at the same time it would scare the shit out of Volantis.

[NorthGirl]

I think Aeogn will become popular by the time she arrives. He is handsome and charismatic, and will likely have a string of unbroken victories. He is also believed to the son of the well-loved late Prince Rhaegar. The HS will likely anoint him as king.

Dany would become unpopular just by opposing him, and saying he is a fraud. Most who declared for Aegon wouldn't want to believe that given it means they had been made fools out of, and for Arianne it would mean she made a huge if not hugely embarrassing political blunder by marrying a false pretender. They all invested too much into Aegon.

I'm confused where does it say that Arianne will marry / wants to marry Aegon. I only remember her needing to ID him so the 50K(?) Dornish soldiers Doran has ready can be dispatched to his cause.

So is Dany. If he's really Aegon he was taken to Essos as a baby (same as Dany), if he's fake he probably isn't Westerosi at all.

Barristan living or dying will tell me a lot wrt Dany's PR in Westeros. Having Barristan the Bold on your side means a lot in Westeros. Certainly more than having Jon Con and the rest of the GC. I know many believe he will die in Meereen, that would be a huge blow for her.

Yeah, I think she really needs him alive and vouching for her. I would say he's her biggest money maker PR wise.

Aegon's regime will be popular to begin with. If they marry, Aegon and Arianne would be the golden couple to the Smallfolk. But I could imagine its popularity plummetting with Jon Connington, Tyene, and Nymeria commanding death squads, and carrying out massive purges of anyone associated with the Lannisters and Baratheons. Jon Con has "supped on hate" for nearly 20 years, and the Sand Snakes live for vengeance.

If Dany leads an army West, and Volantis goes up in flames, then I'm sure there'll be refugees bringing tales of horror to Westeros. And, I don't doubt that her "murder" of Viserys would feature heavily in government propaganda.

Yeah... that would be a problem and the nobles would be over their Revenge! attitude real quick. It's not a sustainable situation unless they learn to get over themselves. Them going after the Lannisters might be ok for like 90% but once they start getting too blood thirsty, it's not going to be cute. The Sand Snakes might have time to wise up but JonCon...I don't know. Also, his grey scale situation is really shady. I get he wants to hide it but isn't he endangering loads of people, including his precious prince?

Yeah, unfortunately it might be bad for Dany before it gets better. Honestly after the Meereen crap fest, I need to see some growth and major re-focusing on her part. I'd like to think that after her experience, she can't just go somewhere, tell people they should be happy that she's here and expect them to take her at face value. Otherwise, I will give up on her character. After she starts talking to Tyrion, if the first two topics of discussion are not about how to deal with dragons and an accurate retelling of Westeros' RR events, I will flip my shit. She already squandered chances with Barristan, I am not dealing with that again.

[chrisdaw]

I think Aegon will be perceived as ending wars, not bringing them. War between the Tyrells and Faith in KL, and then the war between the Reach and Ironborn. And I don't think Greyscale will really take hold and reach the masses before Dany arrives, and that she'll cop the blame for that amongst the smallfolk, a problem which will compound when she wins and it falls to her to deal with it. A no win situation, she either deals with it with isolation and fire, and the smallfolk label her heartless, or she refuses to do so and those with her lose faith in her rule.

[Greymoon]

I think people still generally want a 'good' or 'happy' ending for their favourites

losing Ned and Robb and other favourites throughout the series has upped the stakes for whoever your remaining favs are but people may be dissappointed if Jon's dead Tyrion does not get a happy ending and Dany ends up the villain (after 4 or 5 books of development) and Aegon (essentially out of left field) winds up the hero

I think that would leave a sour taste in peoples mouths

I don't think the idea is that Aegon ends up the hero and Dany the villain, tbh. The idea is that Aegon will have the support of the small-folk, the faith, and possibly of a great part of the westerosi nobility and that Dany's conquest won't go as smoothly as she expects... Aegon arrived at a crucial point, at a time where Lannisters are loosing influence, the Vale is ripe for plucking, the Reach just about ready to turn cloak once more, while the riverlands and the north are gathering their strength -- and have no suitable King/candidate to rally behind.

Because let's face it, no matter how much we love Stannis he is a grumpy sod, believes in the justice of burning people alive, and follows the wrong god. He also burned weirwoods, and embarked in a deadly march, walking straight up to his doom.... his army is unprepared for the harsh north, and even the gold of the Iron Bank might lead to nothing as the best mercenary companies of essos are already under contract.

In the Riverlands, it seems the war is about to take a guerrilla sort of turn under the leadership of the BwB and Lady Stone Heart. But this can't last forever, the riverlanders will fight for what's theirs but eventually, they'll need to rally behind someone who is not half-dead zombie. Someone who can inspire hope and loyalty, a hero to be put on a pedestal.

Enter Aegon, the beloved son of Prince Rhaegar, the last Dragon. He comes with the most glorious sell-sword companies at his back. His men are battle tested, and fresh. His advance will be quick -- as quick, if not quicker than Robbs. And he has 280 of Targaryen rule at his back to legitimate his claim -- better, he is named after Aegon the Conqueror and though he lacks dragons, he'll be "the conqueror reborn", come back to westeros to save its people from Baratheon and Lannister misrule -- as only a Targaryen could.

Some might argue that the riverlands would rally behind Sansa instead -- but, this imo, depends on the way Sansa reveals herself, and how much power she truly wields. I'm not certain that it is at all Sansa's wish to become Queen of anything, or to have people fight in her name. I'd rather think she'd yield to another pretender before pressing her claim...or being aware of the importance of her claim, she might just flee the Vale to surrender herself to a new king, take her destiny in hand so to speak -- and hand pick the next pretender to the northern crown...

In any case Dany has the dothraki to deal with, while Barristan, Tyrion and the Iron Born have the Yunka'i to deal with. Volantis and other free cities are readying for war against Meereen as well.... it seems GRRM has already lots of action planned for the Essosi story line, and unless Dany decides on a 180° turn about, abandons Meereen, her people, and basically flees Slaver's Bay on Victarion's warship (which I find doubtful) -- she's imo, not likely to land in westeros before the end of book 6.

And what if Aegon has already established himself as King by then? What if he has married another instead, or Dany refuses him? Dany's delayed arrival is what is ultimately setting her up as Aegon's antagonist, imo. Whether we, as readers, will find her evil or sympathize with her plight is not really a question at all -- and has little relevance....Aegon is only a secondary character, so Dany fighting him, and ultimately killing him, shouldn't be too traumatizing for us.

What remains to be seen is what effect this would have on Dany's popularity and reception in westeros. And how, it will shape her relationship with other main characters, notably, Jon Snow. Or Sansa Stark (because she is politically speaking, the best match Aegon can hope for); or Arianne Martell and the dornish (though they are not near 'main cast' at all).

[SeanF]

Ser Creighton, I'm saying they'll say she murdered Viserys, a charge that is plausible to an outsider.

[chrisdaw]

Viserys then Aegon, they'll say she murdered her brother then her nephew for the throne. Murdered her husband to take the Dothraki. Burned the free cities and murdered their leaders to steal their unsullied and slave armies. And probably that she bathes in the blood of maidens to keep her beauty.

[Ser Creighton]

Ser Creighton, I'm saying they'll say she murdered Viserys, a charge that is plausible to an outsider.

Yeah that's what I thought you were saying but sometimes on this site you got to check, never know what the random trend for a character is from day to day. For all I knew there was a theory running around that proved once and for all, without a shadow of a doubt that Dany brutally murdered Viserys. Sure it would have no text support and not be based on the books and the person who started it hates Dany, but it could be floating around and people jump into theories of there choosing sometimes. Boredom seems to be a big cause.

Anyway it could happen, someone like LF is clearly not above that. Very curious what he will say about Aegon, not so sure it will be a ton of info from Essos tht would make them do that either. I doubt we see many refugees from Volantis in Westeros if any, more like to go to Pentos, or Lys on one of the other cities. Nor do the lords of Westeros need much if any information to spread lies, at least some of them. Some are decent people and some not so much. Though I will try to get my mind around the idea of Cersei lying, seems a stretch. Cersie would never lie, or do anything shady, she is practically a saint.

I still don't think Dany sacks Volantis, mostly because of how Martin has handled specific multiple battle events in the books. He did it in Kings and Swords. It's been off scene this whole time for Dany and probably remains that way for the most part. I think she has to go to Pentos as well but Illyrio may meet her someplace or she may skip him all together. Though I expect some future resolution there as well. I expect a lot of Meereen, something with the Dothraki of course, maybe Qarth, tough why go there? They may come to her like Volantis. This may be how she gets enough ships, not sure though. Martin can go in a lot of directions. Mawyn should be arriving at some point as well, and someone else who has not been named. With so much to do I figure some stuff has to happen off page no matter what side of the planet people are on.

[El Guapo]

GRRM's letter to his agent in 1993 seems to support the OP:

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Of course, it didn't happen in the "second volume" entitled ADWD, but as of this moment, Dany appears poised to take the reigns and lead an invasion of Westeros. GRRM lists her not as a "savior" but as a "threat." Her fandom would rather not hear it, of course, but that was clearly GRRM's original intent, and it seems all but inevitable now. (f)Aegon has the support of Varys, and the spider's powers of subversion will make Aegon's ascension to power quiet and easy. The people will love Aegon. And Dany will seem like a usurper. Can't wait! :devil:

I am not sure why people think this is such a great revelation. Dany has always been a "threat" to Westeros in that if she is going to take back her throne she is going to have to do it by force and lots of people are going to die. This is nothing new. Her being the saviorof Westeros has to do with he role coming in the battle with the Others where I believe as do others that she will have a prominent role i that fight. In fact in George's outline he mentions that the characters in the first two books are going to be involved in that final battle, so that speculation seems on target.

As an aside, I find it hilarious that nobody mentions the first threat to Westeros listed in that outline which is the was between the Starks and Lannisters. In other Words the Starks are a threat to Westeros as well.

[Leonardo]

Yeah Aegon doesn't know what the rich life is at all, he didn't live with Illyrio or anything, eats bacon every morning and as much food as he could eat, and has had private tutors for years, he knows he's a prince and his step father is a Lord.

Aegon has caught his own food and that sort of thing, it never says he's gone hungry. Dany knows what hunger is though, pain, thirst, grief, guilt.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think you're right, but the Daenerys has had the faaaaar harder road and proven way more.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

why are so many people desperate for a rAegon and Dany rivalry?

because we've read the Dunk and Eggs, TWOIAF, The princess and the queen... etc. We've seen epic battles between those with dragon blood, and we want more.

[Kyrion]

Yeah Aegon doesn't know what the rich life is at all, he didn't live with Illyrio or anything, eats bacon every morning and as much food as he could eat, and has had private tutors for years, he knows he's a prince and his step father is a Lord.

Aegon has caught his own food and that sort of thing, it never says he's gone hungry. Dany knows what hunger is though, pain, thirst, grief, guilt.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think you're right, but the Daenerys has had the faaaaar harder road and proven way more.

I was just paraphrasing Varys

"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be,

but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied

history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough

to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned

to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to

be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows

that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

[Nictarion]

As an aside, I find it hilarious that nobody mentions the first threat to Westeros listed in that outline which is the was between the Starks and Lannisters. In other Words the Starks are a threat to Westeros as well.

I actually brought this up when the outline first was released, I was mostly asked what my point was.:bang:

[Ser Creighton]

I was just paraphrasing Varys

"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be,

but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied

history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough

to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned

to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to

be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows

that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Pretty much everyone knows what fear is, though I have no clue who was hunting Aegon as nobody knew he was alive. Dany was in fact actually hunted. Varys in a sense created a simulation for Aegon to grow up among common folks, but always with his tutors and protectors. He is far more shelterd, Dany actually grew up on the streets and back alleys and was actually hunted. Unlike Aegon in the begining of Thrones Dany had actually forgotten she was princess and has no idea what it means to be a princess, Aegon is said to have been raised with the knowledge he was a king and what his role was to be. Though how well does Varys know him? He never spent any time with him, nor did the readers, we do spend a lot of time with Dany though. Aegon does not know what it is to be sold and to be a slave and to actually have to fight for his survival, he was among the poor but never really one of them. Aegons life and beliefs are a full on attempt to manufacture a person, in most cases this leads to the the child or teen in this case rebelling from what he was taught, which we get a hint at in JonCons last chapter.

You know living on a poll boat and fishing and swiming and using your hands from time to time sounds more like a vaction to most people. He is there with his bodyguards and tutors and mentors, he has his own personal naked Septa, and a Maester. He is not in castle but not on the street either. Many kings have been raised to be kings, not all of them were good kings. Not that he is a bad kid I just get the feeling this is all going to go south and Greyscale is a bad thing to have floating around anyone.

I actually brought this up when the outline first was released, I was mostly asked what my point was.:bang:

Let me guess who asked you what your point was? Sounds like Miss Ass? What are you trying to get me to say I won't say it, I won't, the Stark/Lannister war has caused the land to bloom with love and rainbows because the Starks are associated it with it.

[Nictarion]

Good guess Ser :thumbsup:

[Dorian Martell]

folks sure do like making assumptions about an Author they have never spoken too, and then start citing an outline form two decades ago that is not even relevant anymore. No one outside kings landing knows about her and the folks there don't care because she is wreaking havoc on the other side of the world. She is not a threat. King bob thought she was because he hates her dad and brother. Tywin, Cersei and Kevan do not care. Aegon is the real threat to Westeros. He actually showed up with an army

[HexMachina]

Don't think she will be hated by all, but certainly most. I think this is actually the view most take on these forums tbh.

Some of the hate will be from propaganda (as SeanF said, the rumours she killed Viserys to steal his claim to the Throne) and others will hate her because of her company (disgraced ex-slaver, convicted kin and king slayer, sellswords, etc.). Some will join her though, I think, because they will see her as a winner. Unlike some on the forums though, I do not believe her actions in Slaver's Bay will influence opinion of her at all, whether for better or worse. No one in Westeros really cares what goes on over there.

Btw, Nictarion, I think even if she has Barristan with her it will not really do a lot to save her reputation. He is one knight among a vast army, while he is a tick beside her name (whatever people in the forum feel about him, he is clearly respected in Westeros) it's probably not going to count for a lot in the grand scheme of things.

I agree with Ser Creighton that Varys speech about being hunted and afraid, living among the common folk, is more true of Dany than Aegon. Aegon got the make-believe situation that was nevertheless controlled, he was never actually being hunted/in danger. Dany had the real experience though. Not necessarily from "the Usurper's daggers", as Viserys claimed, but certainly from the beggars when they still had some of their riches, and fleeing from city to city is hardly safe for two children/child and young adult.

[SeanF]

Ser Creighton, I doubt if Dany was ever actually living on the streets, however tough life was for her and Viserys. You can't conceal a crown on the streets. Nor feast the officers of the Golden Company.

But, she obviously lived in straitened circumstances (not compared to the Smallfolk, certainly compared to the nobility).

And, there's no doubt she's been hunted by assassins. She must know her luck will run out eventually.

[Nictarion]

Ser Creighton, I doubt if Dany was ever actually living on the streets, however tough life was for her and Viserys. You can't conceal a crown on the streets. Nor feast the officers of the Golden Company.

But, she obviously lived in straitened circumstances (not compared to the Smallfolk, certainly compared to the nobility).

Dany remembered being able to buy a sausage as a luxury. Idk about living on the streets, but that doesn't sound far off.

[JonSnow4President]

Pretty much everyone knows what fear is, though I have no clue who was hunting Aegon as nobody knew he was alive. Dany was in fact actually hunted.

Forgive me if my memory is unclear, but was she really (pre-Drogo), or was that a function of Viserys' paranoia and overinflated sense of self? It didn't seem like Robert really gave a rats ass until she got knocked up.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

folks sure do like making assumptions about an Author they have never spoken too, and then start citing an outline form two decades ago that is not even relevant anymore. No one outside kings landing knows about her and the folks there don't care because she is wreaking havoc on the other side of the world. She is not a threat. King bob thought she was because he hates her dad and brother. Tywin, Cersei and Kevan do not care. Aegon is the real threat to Westeros. He actually showed up with an army

Actually, that's another of the wrong assumptions, that (once she's recognised as a threat) people will care about how her ruling in SB was. They are not going to analyse her actions like we nerds do. For them, it's just Dany sacking three cities and freeing slaves because she could, that she punished those who defied her and she's likely going to do the same to them. Is not as much as a bad propaganda as people think it is.