Biggest show failures over Seasons 1-4

[Lord of Winterhell]

After my last rewatch I would like to make a poll on the biggest show failures of first four seasons - i.e. over things that showrunners failed to accomplish to general appeasment of book readers. I think Season 4 is a good time to do it, since from obvious reasons show will deviate from books much more in Season 5, and there will be no books from Season 6 onwards. Before I do the poll itself, I would like to make a list of biggest failures (without any order).

I assume there are couple of similar threads, but from unknown reason my search function never seems to work, and I guess nobody tried to make comprehensive list so far. Below please see the list I put together, and please add anything I ommitted, or comment anything I should formulate differently (or expand in more bullets). Please do not argue in this thread, the aim is only to make a list. I personally do not agree with maybe 1/3 of these points, but from my view they represent mixture of opinions gathered from these forums. I am aware that its really a mixture of various things (from single scenes to whole character arcs), but I do not think that is an issue.

Note: I intentionally omit production issues, since I don't think is was possible to avoid them in real world (mainly size of armies, lack of direwolves, sexposition scenes in general).

I am sure I missed lots of things, so thanks in advance for helping me out.

Mishandled character arcs:

• Jon Season 2 (all changes, esp. Ygritte release, dialogues, QH finale)
  
• Dany Season 2 (whole Quarth story)
  
• Robb Seasons 2-3 (esp. random army movement, weird decisions related to Castelry Rock, reasons for going back to the Twins, losing "half" of the army to Karstarks)
  

Mishandled characters:

• Stannis (relationship with Mel all the way, burning infidels Season 4, and all zillion other reasons)
  
• Shae (not sure how to formulate this, but she does not get much love overall here)
  
• Tyrions being whitewashed
  

Heavily disliked invented scenes/characters/storylines:

• Rose (Seasons 1-3)
  
• Jeyne/Talisa change (Seasons 2-3)
  
• Littlefinger threatening Cercei (S2/1)
  
• Jamie kinslayer (S2/7)
  
• Craster's keep mutineers storyline (S4/5)
  
• Asha/Yara rescue mission and her retreat (S4/6)
  
• Tyrion/Jamie "Orson Lannister" conversation (S4/8)
  

Major scenes changes/failures:

• Sansa kneeling to Tyrion (S3/8)
  
• Cercei/Jamie rape scene (S4/3)
  
• Only Cat - your sister change (S4/7)
  
• Stannis not saving a day (S4/9)
  
• Tyrion's escape from KL - Shae, Tysha, Jamie, Tywin changes (S4/10)
  

Character cuts:

• Lady Stoneheart (though she can still make it in)
  
• Coldhands
  

Casting issues:

• Daario recast Season 4
  
• Mountain recasting Season 2 (and his repeated recasting in general)
  
• Renly's casting
  

[KingSean00VII]

Jamie rape scene in season 4. Gotta be the most disliked

[Arkash]

My main problem with the show so far (and one of the very few I have, sincerly) is still Jon's arc at the end of season 2.

From episodes 6 to 9 it would have been better to have him run with the Halfhand and the others in order to escape the wildlings after Jon released Ygritte and in episode 9, just Jon and Qorhin are still alive and that's when Ygritte, Rattleshirt and co, finds them back.

[sati]

For me LS not being in season 4

Also the rushed repercussions to RW - some people I know who watch the show didn't even register what was done to Robb's body

I'm not even gonna mention not having Stannis in Battle of the Wall episode ending and cramming his scenes in finale...

[messem]

Major scenes changes/failures:

• Sansa kneeling to Tyrion (S3/8)

Only Cat - your sister change (S4/7)

Regarding "Only Cat". Even after one year I am amazed how people can get agitated about basically nothing.

Regarding "Sansa kneeling". They had this great scene (At least I think it's great) when Joff was taking the step ladder away. So Sansa not kneeling puts her in the same league as Joffrey. That would have been great television.

[Alex Storm]

Jamie rape scene in season 4. Gotta be the most disliked

Agreed. I don't really have a problem with much else. I mean all they had to do was slip in a little "yes" by Cersei towards the end of the scene so we know she wants it too.

[Colonel Green]

Regarding "Sansa kneeling". They had this great scene (At least I think it's great) when Joff was taking the step ladder away. So Sansa not kneeling puts her in the same league as Joffrey. That would have been great television.

The Joffrey bit would be out, because it undermines what is supposed to be the far more important part of that scene, namely, Sansa's characterization and arc.

My main problem with the show so far (and one of the very few I have, sincerly) is still Jon's arc at the end of season 2.

From episodes 6 to 9 it would have been better to have him run with the Halfhand and the others in order to escape the wildlings after Jon released Ygritte and in episode 9, just Jon and Qorhin are still alive and that's when Ygritte, Rattleshirt and co, finds them back.

One consequence of making that change would be the need to spend a lot more time on Jon/Ygritte at the start of season 3, because, having given their interactions a bunch of scenes in season 2, they largely ignore them in the first four episodes of the next season, and then they have sex in episode 305, without much in the way of buildup.

But it really shouldn't have been hard to find screentime to do that, if you rectify the single-biggest structural problem with the third season; namely, way too much King's Landing screentime at a time when there's very little happening there, and when the key arcs of the season are elsewhere. If you slim down that storyline dramatically, you have more room for Jon's arc, and also for the Northern army storyline (though by that point that story was such a botch that in some ways I'm glad it didn't get that much time, much like I was delighted when our heroes Roose and Walder put Robb and co. out of their misery so that we'd never have to watch them again).

[messem]

The Joffrey bit would be out, because it undermines what is supposed to be the far more important part of that scene, namely, Sansa's characterization and arc.

It is a TV show. We are not Sansa's head. She simply not doing anything (namely not kneeling just standing there) and by doing that embarrassing the fan favorite who has done nothing wrong in that matter would make great television. Sure. I'm sold.

[Colonel Green]

It is a TV show. We are not Sansa's head. She simply not doing anything (namely not kneeling just standing there) and by doing that embarrassing the fan favorite who has done nothing wrong in that matter would make great television. Sure. I'm sold.

Tyrion has done something wrong: he is marrying her against her will, and about to rape her (which he ultimately decides not to do). Again, all the show has to do is not whitewash Tyrion like they did in the final product by saying he was forced into it and making out like they're in equivalent positions.

There are all kinds of visual filming techniques that can be used to convey the important points. Heck, if they're that unimaginative, have Sansa herself explain it to Shae later.

[aFeastForDragons]

Tyrion having a happy parting with Jamie.

Tyrion strangling Shae with not even a word beforehand.

Tyrion killing Tywin over Share.

One of my favourite parts of the book absolutely butchered and dumbed down. It really took the life out of the scene.

Also kicking "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!" into the next episode and leaving a really dull final scene of Jon going through the tunnel with epic music behind him. It would have been a great parallel to have Stannis saving the day, like Tywin saving the day in Blackwater.

[messem]

Tyrion has done something wrong: he is marrying her against her will, and about to rape her (which he ultimately decides not to do). Again, all the show has to do is not whitewash Tyrion ....

They have to. Because of people like you. People who think that it would be rape. Not even Sansa thinks that. Actually nobody in that whole universe thinks that. But you know, just know you that are right.

Given the circumstances Tyrion was the best thing what could've happen to Sansa.

[Colonel Green]

They have to. Because of people like you. People who think that it would be rape. Not even Sansa thinks that. Actually nobody in that whole universe thinks that. But you know, just know you that are right.

1) Sansa does not consent to marry Tyrion or to have sex with him.

2) Tyrion is going to have sex with Sansa anyway, without her consent.

Simple formula: sex minus consent equals rape. Moreover, if it isn't rape, why does Tyrion refuse to do it? The whole point of him refusing is that he realizes that he's about to do something that he considers dreadfully wrong, and stops. As for Sansa not calling it rape, that's because she doesn't have the vocabulary to put a name to it; Westeros has no concept of marital rape (indeed, it was still legal in the United States until 20-30 years ago, depending on the state). That doesn't mean that isn't what it is, and that modern audiences shouldn't be able to recognize that.

Also, from the show itself, in episode 310:

Tywin: "One way or another, you will get that girl pregnant."

Tyrion: "I will not rape her."

So clearly D&D agree with me on this point.

[messem]

Simple formula: sex minus consent equals rape. Moreover, if it isn't rape, why does Tyrion refuse to do it? The whole point of him refusing is that he realizes that he's about to do something that he considers dreadfully wrong, and stops. As for Sansa not calling it rape, that's because she doesn't have the vocabulary to put a name to it; Westeros has no concept of marital rape (indeed, it was still legal in the United States until 20-30 years ago, depending on the state). That doesn't mean that isn't what it is, and that modern audiences shouldn't be able to recognize that.

I don't know why. I can't put my finger on it but somehow you strike as that kind of guy who travels abroad and then tells the natives what they are doing wrong.

btw I don't have the books with me but as far as I remember was Sansa willing to do her duty. Hah, duty such an old-fashioned word.

Also, from the show itself, in episode 310:

Tywin: "One way or another, you will get that girl pregnant."

Tyrion: "I will not rape her."

So clearly D&D agree with me on this point.

As I see it they agree with me. They have to whitewash Tyrion because "some people" wouldn't understand the society and circumstances and apply today's morals.

[Balerion the kitten]

Definitely daenerys in qarth. Have no idea what they were thinking, personally, the house of the undying chapter was one of my favourites out of the whole series. Not only that but the whole storyline of "where are my dragons" was just, well not very good.

[Colonel Green]

btw I don't have the books with me but as far as I remember was Sansa willing to do her duty.

She was willing to marry and sleep with him because she would get beaten up if she didn't. She did not want to do either, and she certainly didn't consider it her "duty" (hence, why she immediately and without qualm refuses to do so when offered a choice).

As I see it they agree with me. They have to whitewash Tyrion because "some people" wouldn't understand the society and circumstances and apply today's morals.

You did see that they had Tyrion explicitly call it rape, right? Which is a somewhat anachronistic use of the term in that society, but if that's necessary to get the audience to realize what the situation actually is, so be it.

As for "applying today's morals", that's kind of what the whole show is about. GRRM is critiquing this misogynistic, classist, albeist society. If we're not "applying today's morals", Tywin is a paragon of virtue for his treatment of Tyrion, but clearly we're not supposed to think that.

[messem]

She was willing to marry and sleep with him because she would get beaten up if she didn't. She did not want to do either, and she certainly didn't consider it her "duty"

I remember it differently but it is more than two years I read it. I come back to you about that point.

ETA: I just reread. She is scared. Of what she is sacred is open to interpretation. At the end of the chapter she was certainly not too scared to aks what happens if she never wants to have sex Tyrion.

As for "applying today's morals", that's kind of what the whole show is about. GRRM is critiquing this misogynistic, classist, albeist society. If we're not "applying today's morals", Tywin is a paragon of virtue for his treatment of Tyrion, but clearly we're not supposed to think that.

Okay, you convinced me. But now I hate them all because they marry off their daughters while being teenagers. That does clearly mean there are all pedophiles. Doesn't it? I'm confused.

[Ser Blake]

While there are a lot of little things I could complain about there are 3 main failures that stand out to me.

1) The absolute butchering of Jon Snow's Season 2 arc. His final few chapters in CoK are some of the best of the entire series and yet instead of using that material the show decided to just have him walking through the snow chatting with Ygritte for 4 episodes. His entire arc in Clash of Kings is about growing up and learning what it truly means to be a man of the Night's Watch. And the show just completely abandons this development just so he can get more screen time with Ygritte. I honestly believe that this mistake (and most of the mistakes North of the Wall) stems from their decision to film in Iceland. Yes it looks gorgeous however it greatly limits what you can do from a filming standpoint. They couldn't film at night, they couldn't have horses, they couldn't do a lot of takes, the actors were miserably cold, they could only get so many extras. I just think from a filmmakers perspective it was a huge mistake.

2) Ruining the House of the Undying. Yes the Iron Throne covered in snow is a cool shot, but outside of that there is nothing memorable about it. I just don't understand how you can adapt a chapter full of powerful imagery and choose not to use any of those images. Not one scene from the House of the Undying in the books made it into the show and to me there is no justification for that.

3) Ruining all of the Lannister's characters and storylines in the Children. Cersei telling Tywin about her and Jaimie (even book Cersei isn't that stupid), having Jaime have sex with Cersei in the White Tower (why are they regressing his character?), not having Jaime tell Tyrion about Tysha and having the brothers leave on good terms (they traded one of the most powerful and emotional scenes in the books for a brotherly hug), having Shae grab a knife to make Tyrion look less cold blooded, by not having Tysha they also ruined Tyrion's main motivation for killing Tywin. It's just depressing because these were the scenes I was looking forward to most in the Season 4 finale, and every single one of them just failed miserably.

[CaptainTheo]

Here are some others:

• Sansa becomes a totally different character between S4E7 and S4E8.
  
• Dany is duped by Tywin and does not give Jorah a chance to redeem himself (S4E8).
  
• Dany locks Doreah into a vault for carrying out her instructions to sleep with the enemy to gain information (S2E10).
  
• Tyrion kills Tywin without a really good reason (S4E10).
  
• Brienne is turned into a rude badass (primarily S4).
  
• Robb looks like an idiot going out of his way to break his vows (S2E8, S2E10).
  
• Killing a significant character who is still alive in the books: Jojen (S4E10).
  
• Arya kills someone who isn't on her hit list: Rorge (S4E7).
  
• Arya adds people to her hit list who don't belong on it, most notably Thoros and Beric just because they let the Hound go (S4E7).
  

You can see why S4 was my least favourite!

EDIT: This too:

• Turning Bran into a killer (S4E5).
  

[messem]

Arya adds people to her hit list who don't belong on it, most notably Thoros and Beric just because they let the Hound go (S4E7).

I think it was because they sold Gendry to the red woman. But I can understand your list even though I don't agree with all the points.

[Rex999]

"Biggest show failures over Seasons 1-4"

So this is the 1000th thread on this topic lol