Theon the drowned?

[Krugal]

The last thing we learn about Theon's fate is that Stannis plans to have him executed, either sacrificed to R'hollor, or beheaded in front of a heart tree (this is from Theon's WoW-chapter). There is reason to think that this will not happen, though, as we know from reading the books that when we are told about the plans for a character, somthing else happens. This is how Martin keeps us on the edge of our seats with twists, turns and surprises. There are numerous examples, the plan to send Ned to the wall, Sansas marriage plans, Cersei plans for Jon, Ariannes plans for Myrcella etc. We are seldom told of a plan to kill someone, and then that's exactly what happens.

So what will happen to Theon instead? I started thinking about how many characters in ASOIAF go through some kind of rebirth. After some sort of divine or magic intervention, they change and become stronger and more determined. This happens for instance to Danaerys after the pyre, Bran after the fall, Jaime after the weirwood stump-dream, Thoros after the resurrection and the damphair after the drowning. Now, if there is anyone in need if a rebirth right now, it must be Theon.

So how would this happen? The ironborn of course have a tradition of being reborn by being drowned and then being brought back to life, and there are many paralells between Theon and the damphair. Both have been young and arrogant, living for wordly pleasures, mocking the gods and their elder (Theon even mocked Aeron). And then they were brought down and humiliated. Aeron was captured and held prisoned at Lannisport, Theon captured and held prisoned at the Dreadfort. Aeron later drowned and was reborn as a new man, grim, stronger and more determined. I suspect that this is what will happen to Theon as well.

Now where and when would this happen? Theon is far from the sea right now. He is close to a frozen lake, however, and drowning in a frozen lake seems fitting, considering both his ironborn and northern heritage. There are indications that this lake will be of importance, either as a battlefield or that the island in the lake will be the place of Theon's execution. And there are other ironborn around to resurrect him.

So how will this change Theon? Again, there are paralells to the damphair. Aeron is tormented by two things. Firstly, he seems traumatized by some sort of abuse from his childhood, he is very afraid of Euron and has nightmares about rusty hinges. Secondly, he is tormented by guilt after having caused the death of his brother Urrigon. After his resurrection and with the help of his faith, he has been able to handle these severe psychological strains, though. Theon, on the other hand, is of course as well severely traumatized from the abuse and torture he has been through. And he is tormented by guilt, after having been part of Robbs downfall and death. Robb, who was "more of a brother" than any son of Balon Greyjoy. Theon needs some sort of rebirth and faith, like Aeron, to handle his own psychological strains. And if he was a godly man, he wouldn't need what has been taken from him. He would not be interested in wordly plesures and personal glory. He would be able to continue his path and reclaiming his ironborn identity, might even go after the seastone chair, not as his fathers heir (or trying to please his father), but as a prophet of the drowned god.

Aside from the paralells with Aeron, there is also the argument of nominative determinism to support this theory. If you believe Martin named his characters to tell us somthing about their fate, then there must be some divine or religious component in Theon's destiny, as Theon is greek for godly.

What do you think? Agree or disagree? Are there any other textual evidence or foreshadowing to support, or disprove, this theory?

[CreativeName]

Well, after reading Theon's sample chapter from WoW I immediately jumped to the conclusion that probably most of us jumped to: Theon will be brought before the heart tree and Stannis tries to carry out the execution in the old-fashioned northern way. However, Stannis will be convinced otherwise, because Bran / Bloodraven somehow intervene by means of the weirwood network. Why else would they (the ravens) try to bring Theon before the weirwood tree at the end of Theon's sample chapter? The tree has to play some kind of significant role.

ETA: Of course, the execution could also be stopped directly due to the attack of the Bolton army. In that case, Theon might get in touch with Bran / Bloodraven during the battle, get some revelation and also serve as an observer of the battle from the island.

The tree is described as being on a small island of the lake:

[Asha:] "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear [...]"

Also, Stannis worries multiple times that the enemy could be upon them any moment:

"Lord Bolton's men will be here sooner than we would wish." [...]

"Lord Bolton may be on us soon." [...]

"Roose Bolton's men may well be on their way to attack us even now, however, so you must understand if I skimp on certain courtesies." [...]

"Lord Bolton could be on us any moment, [...]"

This leads me to believe that in the same chapter of Theon's execution scene we will see the Bolton army (Frey / Manderly / Ramsay) advance on Stannis' forces and the "battle of ice" will be carried out on the frozen lake.

As many have pointed out, Stannis seems to have a plan to use the frozen lake to his advantage:

"[...] Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

"The ground?" said Theon. "What ground? Here? This misbegotten tower? This wretched little village? You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses."

"Yet."

"Yet," both ravens screamed in unison. Then one quorked, and the other muttered, "Tree, tree, tree."

"Ground" represents the frozen lake. "Yet" meaning, once the ice breaks under the weigt of the heavy horses of their enemies, there will be a natural defense.

Stannis, OTOH, has to fight afoot, meaning less pressure on the ice.

[stannis:] "His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot."

---

I do like your parallels between Aeron and Theon, though. Good stuff. During the battle, there could be a scene where Theon drowns in the lake or almost drowns and gets rescued / 'resurrected'. However, I don't think he will end up on the 'path of faith'. Don't know why. Just my unsupported opinion. It doesn't seem to jibe with his overall character arc to become pious.

ETA: If anything, he probably is more inclined to serve the 'Old Gods' (Bran / Bloodraven) at this point rather than the Drowned one. If he really gets a redemption arc, this would make more sense from a literary standpoint.

Theon needs some sort of rebirth [...]

I think his rebirth already happened to a great extent with the transformation to Reek and back to Theon again. He is not the same person anymore.

Theon is greek for godly.

For Theon's name, I think Martin was inspired by greek philosophy. Look up this pdf. First page. It's a philosophical riddle about identity and totally fits with Theon's character arc. I wouldn't read too much into the direct translation of his name.

[mikaeelalikhan11]

The last thing we learn about Theon's fate is that Stannis plans to have him executed, either sacrificed to R'hollor, or beheaded in front of a heart tree (this is from Theon's WoW-chapter). There is reason to think that this will not happen, though, as we know from reading the books that when we are told about the plans for a character, somthing else happens. This is how Martin keeps us on the edge of our seats with twists, turns and surprises. There are numerous examples, the plan to send Ned to the wall, Sansas marriage plans, Cersei plans for Jon, Ariannes plans for Myrcella etc. We are seldom told of a plan to kill someone, and then that's exactly what happens.

So what will happen to Theon instead? I started thinking about how many characters in ASOIAF go through some kind of rebirth. After some sort of divine or magic intervention, they change and become stronger and more determined. This happens for instance to Danaerys after the pyre, Bran after the fall, Jaime after the weirwood stump-dream, Thoros after the resurrection and the damphair after the drowning. Now, if there is anyone in need if a rebirth right now, it must be Theon.

So how would this happen? The ironborn of course have a tradition of being reborn by being drowned and then being brought back to life, and there are many paralells between Theon and the damphair. Both have been young and arrogant, living for wordly pleasures, mocking the gods and their elder (Theon even mocked Aeron). And then they were brought down and humiliated. Aeron was captured and held prisoned at Lannisport, Theon captured and held prisoned at the Dreadfort. Aeron later drowned and was reborn as a new man, grim, stronger and more determined. I suspect that this is what will happen to Theon as well.

Now where and when would this happen? Theon is far from the sea right now. He is close to a frozen lake, however, and drowning in a frozen lake seems fitting, considering both his ironborn and northern heritage. There are indications that this lake will be of importance, either as a battlefield or that the island in the lake will the place of Theon's execution. And there are other ironborn around to resurrect him.

So how will this change Theon? Again, there are paralells to the damphair. Aeron is tormented by two things. Firstly, he seems traumatized by some sort of abuse from his childhood, he is very afraid of Euron and has nightmares about rusty hinges. Secondly, he is tormented by guilt after having caused the death of his brother Urrigon. After his resurrection and with the help of his faith, he has been able to handle these severe psychological strains, though. Theon, on the other hand, is of course as well severely traumatized from the abuse and torture he has been through. And he is tormented by guilt, after having been part of Robbs downfall and death. Robb, who was "more of a brother" than any son of Balon Greyjoy. Theon needs some sort of rebirth and faith, like Aeron, to handle his own psychological strains. And if he was a godly man, he wouldn't need what has been taken from him. He would not be interested in wordly plesures and personal glory. He would be able to continue his path and reclaiming his ironborn identity, might even go after the seastone chair, not as his fathers heir (or trying to please his father), but as a prophet of the drowned god.

Aside from the paralells with Aeron, there is also the argument of nominative determination to support this theory. If you believe Martin named his characters to tell us somthing about their fate, then there must be some divine or religious component in Theon's destiny, sd Theon is greek for godly.

What do you think? Agree or disagree? Are there any other textual evidence or foreshadowing to support, or disprove, this theory?

I think Stannis will burn Theon on the pyre but then Theon walks out as Azor Ahai. Now woundn't that be epic?

[SevasTra82]

This seems plausable.

I do think Theon will last this series, as GRRM has spent a TON of time breaking him down, and slowly building him back up over the last few books. I do think there is a signifigance with the lake, drowning, and Theon being ironborn...it would be a good metaphor to use for Theon being "reborn" as Theon, and joining Stannis's ranks helping the North. His story arc would come full circle at that point...and I think that's a good thing.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Theon is my boy and all but he's gonna have a tough time in the north recovering from his Reekness and being labeled Turncoat.

[Sword of the Morgan]

The last thing we learn about Theon's fate is that Stannis plans to have him executed, either sacrificed to R'hollor, or beheaded in front of a heart tree (this is from Theon's WoW-chapter). There is reason to think that this will not happen, though, as we know from reading the books that when we are told about the plans for a character, somthing else happens. This is how Martin keeps us on the edge of our seats with twists, turns and surprises. There are numerous examples, the plan to send Ned to the wall, Sansas marriage plans, Cersei plans for Jon, Ariannes plans for Myrcella etc. We are seldom told of a plan to kill someone, and then that's exactly what happens.

So what will happen to Theon instead? I started thinking about how many characters in ASOIAF go through some kind of rebirth. After some sort of divine or magic intervention, they change and become stronger and more determined. This happens for instance to Danaerys after the pyre, Bran after the fall, Jaime after the weirwood stump-dream, Thoros after the resurrection and the damphair after the drowning. Now, if there is anyone in need if a rebirth right now, it must be Theon.

So how would this happen? The ironborn of course have a tradition of being reborn by being drowned and then being brought back to life, and there are many paralells between Theon and the damphair. Both have been young and arrogant, living for wordly pleasures, mocking the gods and their elder (Theon even mocked Aeron). And then they were brought down and humiliated. Aeron was captured and held prisoned at Lannisport, Theon captured and held prisoned at the Dreadfort. Aeron later drowned and was reborn as a new man, grim, stronger and more determined. I suspect that this is what will happen to Theon as well.

Now where and when would this happen? Theon is far from the sea right now. He is close to a frozen lake, however, and drowning in a frozen lake seems fitting, considering both his ironborn and northern heritage. There are indications that this lake will be of importance, either as a battlefield or that the island in the lake will the place of Theon's execution. And there are other ironborn around to resurrect him.

So how will this change Theon? Again, there are paralells to the damphair. Aeron is tormented by two things. Firstly, he seems traumatized by some sort of abuse from his childhood, he is very afraid of Euron and has nightmares about rusty hinges. Secondly, he is tormented by guilt after having caused the death of his brother Urrigon. After his resurrection and with the help of his faith, he has been able to handle these severe psychological strains, though. Theon, on the other hand, is of course as well severely traumatized from the abuse and torture he has been through. And he is tormented by guilt, after having been part of Robbs downfall and death. Robb, who was "more of a brother" than any son of Balon Greyjoy. Theon needs some sort of rebirth and faith, like Aeron, to handle his own psychological strains. And if he was a godly man, he wouldn't need what has been taken from him. He would not be interested in wordly plesures and personal glory. He would be able to continue his path and reclaiming his ironborn identity, might even go after the seastone chair, not as his fathers heir (or trying to please his father), but as a prophet of the drowned god.

Aside from the paralells with Aeron, there is also the argument of nominative determination to support this theory. If you believe Martin named his characters to tell us somthing about their fate, then there must be some divine or religious component in Theon's destiny, sd Theon is greek for godly.

What do you think? Agree or disagree? Are there any other textual evidence or foreshadowing to support, or disprove, this theory?

Really interesting. Something I had not thought about before. I like the parallels you've drawn between the two Greyjoys. I'm not sure what direction Theon is headed in, but I have thought for a long time that he will survive the series.

[Krugal]

Thanks for the input! I guess the rebirth, or religious awakening, could be related to the old gods instead of the drowned god. His visit to the heart tree in Winterfell might suggest he's moving in that direction, and he would still be following a character arc similar to that of his uncle's. And I think that he needs to go through something with great impact on his personality, like a religious awakening, to be able to move forward after the severe psychological traumatization he's experienced. I think it would be fitting though, if it was as a servant of the drowned god, as it would help him reclaim his primary identity as ironborn (and I would like to see him get his revenge on Ramsay by drowning him in a barrel of water).

[Krugal]

G

[INCBlackbird]

very interesting! and well yes "what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" will apply to Theon! I'm 90% sure of it! However, I hope he doesn't turn to religion, I don't think that necassary, I also don't think he needs to almost drown, I think the rebirth has already happened. Though I guess there could be a final step to it that is similar to drowning or something else.

[Krugal]

On the one hand I see what you mean about that the rebirth has already taken place when Theon decides to rescue Jeyne. However, I see it more as a step towards rebirth, the beginning of character change or transformation from Reek back to Theon. He is still pretty broken and insecure though, and he is at the moment just passively awaiting his execution. I feel that we should expect the next, and final, step, a defining moment where he "rises again, harder and stronger", becoming something more than the Theon he was. I'm very curious to see if the ice on that lake will hold his weight.

[Krugal]

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I'd like very much to hear your opinions and see it discussed.

[Steelborn]

That is interesting and caught my attention. I do think Theon will reclaim his ironborn identity, although not through religion, he's already slowly letting go of Reek and becoming again "Theon" as that is how I read his storyline by the end of Dance.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

Theon's gonna die, but it some heroic way where he dies in peace with himself.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I really like this theory. Well done.

"What is dead may never die."

[Trogdor Targaryen]

If he is drowned then "resurrected," watch out for salt and smoke symbolism.... I've said it once and I will say it again, Theon is the Prince who was Promised.

[Ronfried_IV]

there are many paralells between Theon and the damphair. Both have been young and arrogant, living for wordly pleasures, mocking the gods and their elder (Theon even mocked Aeron). And then they were brought down and humiliated. Aeron was captured and held prisoned at Lannisport, Theon captured and held prisoned at the Dreadfort. Aeron later drowned and was reborn as a new man, grim, stronger and more determined. I suspect that this is what will happen to Theon as well.

Another similarity would be that they are both the youngest sons in their generation and there is a tradition in Westeros, that younger sons become Maesters, priests of religions, mostly septons or Nightswatch members to avoid conflict in sucession. Theons case is a bit different though, since he is an heir already after his bothers die in the rebellion.

Now where and when would this happen? Theon is far from the sea right now. He is close to a frozen lake, however, and drowning in a frozen lake seems fitting, considering both his ironborn and northern heritage. There are indications that this lake will be of importance, either as a battlefield or that the island in the lake will be the place of Theon's execution. And there are other ironborn around to resurrect him.

In most of the theories and analysis arround the Battle in the Ice, the lake takes a prominent role and mostly does so by Ice craking and a lot of people drowning, so it's highly plausible that this would work.

Another point could be that if stannis is going to execute him in front of the WW it would be iirc the first time that three religions directly crash into another. Stannis (rhollor) is going to execute theon (drowned) in front of a WWtree (old gods). Since we know that at least behind rhollor and the old gods is some truth to the myth, at least what magical powers concern. We don't have proof that the drowned god is real and he seems to be a minor religion in the books, but this could still come.

Interesting enough is that behind every "resurection" so far stands the point that only Death can pay for life, but with a bunch of people drowning in the upcoming battle, hopefully freys, even this part would be fullfilled.

[Krugal]

That is interesting, about the three religions clashing, I hadn't thought about that. I see it more in terms of a religious awakening affecting personality than any divine or magical intervention. But I suppose anything is possible now that magic powers are increasing and it is intriguing with three powerful magical entities clashing.