On the Sand Snakes

[Richard Writhen]

I think the book snakes were pretty badass and there was no need to cheesify their plot, lines et al. And yeah yum Tyene cell bewbs scene lawl...

[Destroyer of Nations]

I have to admit that I was quite annoyed withe Sand Snakes. I absolutely loved them in the books and I as dissapointed with them here. They were actually quite annoying. There were a bucnh of pointless scenes with them that I could've done without.

[adsf45ds]

Because they were? I mean isn't that fairly obvious? The vast majority of the scenes in Dorne feature Ellaria or the Sandsnakes and prior to the season being aired there was a lot of publicity and hype for these awesome new characters. They were clearly intended to be on of the main draws of the new seasons. "Look how cool they are! Look at their individualised weapons! Look at the empowerment!" Certainly they got a lot more screen time than they did in the books, and yet somehow manage to have less characterisation.

I don't see any indication they were the center of the Dornish story, any more so than Doran or Ellaria.....

[lyvyathan]

I don't get if they all are green as long as they get them right, and I doubt they will, tbh.

Also, how are Keisha Castle-Hughes and Jessica Henwick "too white"? Isn't that racist? Their skin might be a bit lighter, but that's very awful thing to say. There is more to a "race" than the colour.

(why isn't Tyene blond???)

Some people like to watch other people beating a dead horse.

[protar]

I don't see any indication they were the center of the Dornish story, any more so than Doran or Ellaria.....

They got far more screen time than Doran. He's just the guy in the background. And he seemingly has no motivations or any sort of character arc. Ellaria...arguably yes she is the protagonist. But I see her more of like the charlie to charlie's angels. She sends them out on their mission and doesn't do anything else until the finale. The leader is not necessarily the protagonist. And that's just within the story. Outside, with the marketing and previews, the Sand Snakes were clearly marketed to be the cool new characters of Season 5. I know people give Martin a lot of flack for thinking Darkstar would be cool, but that doesn't get anywhere near this disaster.

[Gramsci]

They got far more screen time than Doran. He's just the guy in the background. And he seemingly has no motivations or any sort of character arc. Ellaria...arguably yes she is the protagonist. But I see her more of like the charlie to charlie's angels. She sends them out on their mission and doesn't do anything else until the finale. The leader is not necessarily the protagonist. And that's just within the story. Outside, with the marketing and previews, the Sand Snakes were clearly marketed to be the cool new characters of Season 5. I know people give Martin a lot of flack for thinking Darkstar would be cool, but that doesn't get anywhere near this disaster.

Doran's lack of real screen time is a travesty, especially because he is like a more cunning and vengeful version of Olenna

[Red Tiger]

And yet all of Olenna's family is still alive...

[Shpati]

"You want a good girl but want the bad p***y"...

lmao

Then you got this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlL56OCPEaw

It was a shame because Pascal did an awesome job with Oberyn last season, probably got millions of people excited to see Dorne, and they got something terrible.

They should have just invested in a good actor for Arianne Martell and just gotten some martial artists for the sand snakes to do some battle scenes.

Hopefully they learned their lessons and don't mess up the Iron Islands next season.

[Richard Writhen]

They take the absolute best characters out. I'm pretty hyped for the total absence of Victarion next season :devil:

[Lord Friendzone]

"You want a good girl but want the bad p***y"...

lmao

Then you got this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlL56OCPEaw

It was a shame because Pascal did an awesome job with Oberyn last season, probably got millions of people excited to see Dorne, and they got something terrible.

They should have just invested in a good actor for Arianne Martell and just gotten some martial artists for the sand snakes to do some battle scenes.

Hopefully they learned their lessons and don't mess up the Iron Islands next season.

It's so cringeworthy, but funny at the same time.

Yeah. A man can hope.

[adsf45ds]

I'm disappointed to see Ariane miss out. HBO's CEO of Tits would have been happy!

Thankfully we're getting Manderly, that was an entertaining character.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I'm disappointed to see Ariane miss out. HBO's CEO of Tits would have been happy!

Thankfully we're getting Manderly, that was an entertaining character.

Is that confirmed? I thought we were getting Umbers.

[ebevan91]

I have to admit that I was quite annoyed withe Sand Snakes. I absolutely loved them in the books and I as dissapointed with them here. They were actually quite annoying. There were a bucnh of pointless scenes with them that I could've done without.

And Nymeria did fuck all this season. All she did was speak like 3 lines and that's it. At least Tyene showed her tits.

[Red Tiger]

"You want a good girl but want the bad p***y"...

lmao

Then you got this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlL56OCPEaw

It was a shame because Pascal did an awesome job with Oberyn last season, probably got millions of people excited to see Dorne, and they got something terrible.

They should have just invested in a good actor for Arianne Martell and just gotten some martial artists for the sand snakes to do some battle scenes.

Hopefully they learned their lessons and don't mess up the Iron Islands next season.

"Cut the fight choreography budget by 99% they say. No one will notice they say." :lmao:

[WhitewolfStark]

A rough outline of how I would have improved upon this season's Dornish plot, keeping constrained to a lot of the decisions they made and focusing on making those decisions as best as they can be.

The Sandsnakes aren't interesting by themselves. The Sandsnakes have no real conflict, they're meant to be flavoring and garnish, not the main dish--and no more does this come across than here in the TV show. Sure they have a simple goal: vengeance, and simple characterization of being "badass fighting girls". But what are their characteristics beyond that? We get stubbornness and pride from Obara. Haughtiness from Nymeria. Pluck and Cunning from Tyene.

Surely they must think of other things besides vengeance? While the book versions are not much more deep as characters (nor were they never meant to be so), one got a sense that each had a life outside of this that had been "disturbed" so to speak. Tyene was to be a Septa, Obara was the main fighter of all the Sandsnakes and the one who really took it seriously as a choice in life, Nymeria had the political mind and a way with charming others--keeping in touch with her Volantene noble mother. While each were skilled with a weapon, it wasn't their sole characterization. They had professions and lives that each had disturbed by the death of their father.

I can understand cutting things for the sake of time or money. But how much would it have cost them to have Tyene show up dressed as a Septa and when she vows to follow her mother she throws off her garments and says that the Mother can take her mercy, but she wants justice?

Or instead of the inside joke that the writers wrote in with the hand slapping game, have an actual character building scene. If they have time for silly inside jokes, they have time to write better character scenes than we got. How much would it have been for Nymeria to have received a letter from her mother in Volantis while in the cell? We saw Volantis this season--the viewers would have understood where it was in relation to Dorne, and it would have been nice to have seen a greater development on Volantis than just a "here's the long bridge... they have red priestesses, slaves, and ". Have her explain the politics of Volantis to her sisters who question why she keeps track of such things halfway across the world--but Nymeria mentions that the Maegyrs or Tiger faction has recently supplanted the Elephant faction. Nymeria explains that the Maegyrs (whom viewers should recognize as Talisa was Maegyr) are the war faction (while the Elephants are the trade faction), which means Volantis is preparing for war with someone, or for someone. This could have touched upon Dany's plot line had they chosen to go with that, or have it as a teaser for next season when surprise surprise Volantis attacks and Tyrion has to deal with a new siege of the city early in Season 6 with Daenerys absent, and the Sons of the Harpy trying to sabotage things worse than Cersei did.

Obara meanwhile, I wouldn't have hired a good actor for, I would have hired a stunt woman who is quite experienced and capable with a spear and who does a little acting on the side--but is not known for being a brilliant actor. She should be knocking our socks off with her skill with a spear. She might not be a showoff, like her father was, but she'd be just as skilled. The strong silent typing would have worked for this character if the stunt woman wasn't that skilled with acting--just looking and glowering, until forced to talk in the cell later.

There, I just fleshed out the three characters to the point where they have more to them than just vengeance. If we're going to invest in these characters, care about them, etc. with such a short introduction, it would be best to try and flesh them out as much as they are able before they take action, and it doesn't take too much to be honest.

They want to keep Ellaria the one rooting for vengeance? Fine. I can roll with that. Have her come not just to Doran, but then go to each of these three Sandsnakes and have them react to the news. Starting in media res, like the show does, only works if after you've started in the middle you have the luxury to "jump back" so to speak through internal monolog, or we are already familiar with the characters. Since neither is available to us stylistically, then we're going to have to do some quick background work then.

So, in episode two, have Ellaria come across Tyene as she's in the Sept and essentially pull her out of it. Showing Ellaria pulling Tyene out would show the kind of relationship Ellaria would have with Tyene, that she thinks as her mother that she can have her do what she wants (that's a change from the original book relationship the showmakers made, but we can keep it). End that scene with Tyene agreeing to take off the Septa's habit for justice for her father.

Then have Ellaria speak with Obara--whom the two should have a slightly awkward relationship for contrast the ease with which Ellaria and Tyene had as they marched out of the Sept, and end it with Tyene throwing off the Septa's habit. They approach her in the practice yard as she's sharpening her spear. When the awkwardness threatens for Ellaria to back out, Tyene could then intercede between her mother and half-sister and plead. Obara could then pull out her "my father made me choose, tears or a spear which would be my weapon" speech to show how she contrasts with Tyene (who tried to use tears to win her case). Obara says she won't do it for justice, but vengeance--to which we see Ellaria smile.

The last one should be Nymeria, who for differences' sake we can have associating with Myrcella and Trystane. We could see Nymeria talking about all the political implications of the possibilities for small council she'd appoint (and why are so many positions being left vacant), while Myrcella takes slight offense that anyone could step into her grandfather's shoes as hand of the king--because Myrcella's grandfather just died--I mean, she hardly knew the man, but she should be affected by it to some degree--worrying about her mother if nothing else, and conflicted that her beloved uncle Tyrion (whom we know is beloved to her from Season Two) killed him. Trystane defends Myrcella's opinion that Tywin Lannister was indeed quite the man whose shoes will not be filled so easily. We see Nymeria getting rather perturbed about this (as all her life she remembers Tywin as the man who murdered her cousins), as she's not sorry that Tywin Lannister died. She gives Trystane a glare and walks off. Trystane and Myrcella can then commence in lovey dovey dialogue with him trying to cheer Myrcella up and we see him succeeding, which would speak to their character relationship without being trite about it. Tyene approaches Nymeria as she's stalking off and pulls her aside to where she, Obara and Ellaria all are, and Ellaria sells her idea of vengeance to Nymeria, who for a moment pauses--but then sees Trystane and Myrcella laughing and then kissing from afar before saying she'll do it.

Sure, it's more set up, but again, if we're going to care about what these characters do this season, you have to establish some kind of bond with them and your audience. The TV show writers did this for Oberyn when they had him and Tyrion discuss in episode one and meet in Littlefinger's brothel. I can't see why they'd fail to do the same with his daughters.

From there you can have the assassination plot continue mostly as written. Perhaps add in one scene where they all disagree on how to kill Myrcella, before settling on abducting her, with Tyene favoring an indirect method such as poison, while the others want a more finite and sure way of seeing that Myrcella dies and won't be cured by the Maester.

And when abducting her, don't just come in all dressed like assassins ready for a fight. Use the advantage that you're allowed to be there to your advantage. Have Nymeria approach Myrcella and ask to speak to her in private, pretending to apologize for what she said about her family--have her turn on Myrcella that she can't help it if she's from a family of dirty backstabbers, we can't choose our family. Myrcella doesn't respond well to this, as can be expected and tries to leave, but now Tyene appears with her daggers, and says that they're going to be leaving the Water Gardens. The two then walk past the guards, who Obara has just finished taking out as Tyene and Nymeria approach. All the while the Sandsnakes can be going on about what Tywin did to their aunt and her children in addition to how their father died. There could even be a plea from Myrcella that she wasn't even born then, and that she was in Dorne when Oberyn died--perhaps even touching upon the fact that they're doing what they say they hated about her grandfather--punishing an innocent. That way we could give a nod to the overall theme of Dorne in the books--that vengeance only begets more vengeance and the innocent always suffer.

Outside they have horses waiting with Ellaria, who's prepared them. If you still want to have the ridiculous coincidence meetup between Jaime & Bronn and the Sandsnake plot, now's the time to have it as they approach the Water Gardens. Instead of having Jaime & Bronn sneak into the palace inexplicably easily. Have the confrontation take place just outside of the palace. They have a bit of a brawl outside the palace (therefore they can have as much practice time as they need and not worry about damaging the palace they were shooting in, and can shoot it whenever), which is broken up when Trystane appears with Aero Hotah and the guards. Trystane, if they're so bold, can go immediately to rescuing Myrcella and making sure she's all right while Aero Hotah takes care of the Sandsnakes.

Then you can have the season play out with the Sandsnakes in their cell, Bronn can interact with them, still get poisoned--and still have the antidote. Still have everything else play out if you want it so badly, but now we have context, characterization, and a better fight scene to help support the floppy resolution. I would change one thing. Trystane isn't going himself. In the end, have Doran send Nymeria to be on the small council in place of her father and Tyene to infiltrate the Sparrows. Doran says that they can't have vengeance on Myrcella, but he's letting them go to KL to try their hands on Cersei. Obara stays in Dorne. Ellaria critiques the plan saying that they forget their father too quickly--Tyene mentions that taking down the Queen would be a better vindication anyway than killing Myrcella. Ellaria just smiles and says too late for that as she drinks some antidote, and we find out that Ellaria has killed Myrcella by stealing some of Tyene's poison.

Oh and cut that horrible line of "good girl/bad pussy", that's just terrible writing no matter what. In fact drop the whole Tyene/Bronn thing as that's pointless. Cut the hand slapping scene as well.

It would still be a less than great plot, but it would be a better version of the less than great plot IMO.

[Arya Dark]

I'm not really sure what D and D were thinking with the Snakes. Such a let down.

[the_queen_of_tulips]

With all honesty I was bummed that characters from Dorne, the Iron Islands, as well as young Griff, and Lady Stoneheart weren't used at first. But Now that I've watched season 5 and saw what happened in Dorne (nothing), it's best if they don't bring in more. That way D&D can't butcher they personalities or their storylines.

[Richard Writhen]

I'm not really sure what D and D were thinking with the Snakes. Such a let down.

Again, the characters are not cheesy in the books. Not tongue-in-cheek. At all.

They are dark, mysterious, even. Skull-kissing anti-heroines. Not TMNT.

After the rediculous amount of hype they didn't even debut until episode 4...

[Valhalla Morghulis]

The Sandsnakes were a let down, but the scenes with Bron, pussy aside, were alright, playful rather than overly-cheesy. Bron and Jamie fighting in the sand was also amusing, the metal hand trick was nice.

As much as we want Jon back I almost prefer Oberyn to come back even more, he was a fantastic character and beautifully played by Pedro, the end scene with Tyrion was one of the best and most heart wrenching of the entire show, but how a guy like that is with such an obvious clumsy oaf like show Ellaria stretched credulity, they needed to make her more cunning and shrewd if nothing else just so she did not reflect so badly on Oberyn.

[DireWolfSpirit]

In 2004 Keisha Castle-Hughes was the youngest ever "Best Actress" nominee for an Academy Award. I still refuse to dump on these actresses over any Dorne dissapointment.