Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn

[Durran Durrandon]

I am not sure if I 100% buy into this school of thought at the moment but you do make some compelling arguments..

We are all just trying to entertain ourselves while waiting for TWOW. Until then, it's all about fun arguements and making friends. There is no prize for being right. I'm glad you enjoyed the read.

[LmL]

Yeah I think we've all wondered that same thing. Are we chasing shadows?

BWAHAHAHAHA

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

snip

I just always worry with these sorts of threads that they aren't so much the discovery of some great underlying thought/story placed in the books by GRRM as much as they are the over analyzation by fervent readers who are trying to pass the time between books. I know GRRM puts a lot of thought into his writing and takes great pride in his hidden messages and foreshadowing, but sometimes I wonder if our minds are just getting carried away in desperation to fill the lulls between books.

snip

It's totally possible that we may be barking up the wrong tree. However, I'm completely sure that some major game-changing event will happen by the end of the story, something way beyond who gets the iron throne. A mythical figure from the past being literally or metaphorically reborn and succeeding instead of failing, thus righting the seasons and sorting out the black-magic stuff would fit that bill. I think a lot of us on this forum really do just need to calm down and wait for the next book, but this theory seems very legit.

And I've always suspected Dany would end up being some kind of Alexander the Great figure, creating an empire in Essos before even getting to Westeros. So this theory plays into my long-time intuition as well as actually making sense. :-)

[Durran Durrandon]

Although I forever wonder why a race of aquatic beings would bother constructing so many cities on land -- especially one as big as Asshai. I know they're all next to bodies of water, but why bother trying to build on land at all?

At this point, I can't remember of I said this here or in a related thread, but I think Yeen and Asshai might have been ceremonial cities built by amphibious Deep Ones. Keep in mid that the Great Pyramids were purely religious in function. No one lived there. That's my hunch. I can't back it up. I don't think Yeen and Asshai have entirely separate back stories, however, and Yeen definitely was not within the borders of the GEotD.

[Man of Many Faces]

We are all just trying to entertain ourselves while waiting for TWOW. Until then, it's all about fun arguements and making friends. There is no prize for being right. I'm glad you enjoyed the read.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more with you on that.

Yeah I think we've all wondered that same thing. Are we chasing shadows?

BWAHAHAHAHA

As long as these shadows don't leave us like Renly I am ok with chasing them to pass the time.

[BalerionTheCat]

It seems like you're reading an awful lot into the word "despairing." And I don't agree it takes time to despair - you can see something, and instantly feel despair. If I am lost out at sea on a small boat, and I find my only food has rotted, I might instantly despair, knowing I had only a few days to live and try to find land.

Let's say I am a manager, and I kind of know Johnson hasn't been super on top of his expense accounts, but when I open up the books and see how much he's stolen from the company, how deep the corruption goes, I would instantly feel despair.

I recognize I put the concept of despair a bit far. No less than a few millennia. But what are millennia for a god?

If I take your boat example. If I know the situation cannot improve, if I thought of every possibilities, and found no hope. Then yes, I will despair. Despair is the give-up of any hope. It needs the time to realize that. For Johnson, so long as you think you can train him, he could improve, you will try and wait. You will despair only when you realize he is hopeless. Or you are angry and you fire him.

The Maiden would have waited until every hope was lost. How much time is that? Knowing the LN was not a pleasing alternative either.

But if you don't like the idea of the long wait, the First Men exodus could have been earlier, much earlier, as early as the Stone, following a prophecy similar to the one by Daenys the Dreamer and the Doom of Valyria.

[LmL]

Well, to work with your idea, it does say that even before the LN, the reigns were growing shorter and less glorious, and George even lists an equivalent to the seven deadly sins (it's still weird that serial killer is the president now and has his own TV show... weird) and says they were happening before the blood betrayal. And even without that, there are other reasons which could have caused migrations. In the GEotD essay I'm working on, I am going to trace the various migrations patterns. If you're thinking about the origins of the First Men, you got to look at the Sarnor section. I think the Fisher Queen and Silver Sea Kingdoms are a key link between the GEotD and the FM.

[BalerionTheCat]

It's totally possible that we may be barking up the wrong tree. However, I'm completely sure that some major game-changing event will happen by the end of the story, something way beyond who gets the iron throne. A mythical figure from the past being literally or metaphorically reborn and succeeding instead of failing, thus righting the seasons and sorting out the black-magic stuff would fit that bill. I think a lot of us on this forum really do just need to calm down and wait for the next book, but this theory seems very legit.

Yes, I would go as far as thinking that the one with The Song of Ice and Fire is the God-on-Earth returned, "the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light". And he will rule for 10,000 years, because "What Is dead may Never die". Every good ruler is followed by a shitty one, it is time to have a good long peace.

The stallion who mounts the world is the Dothraki deformed vision of this emperor. You have to see the vision right.

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day.

[LmL]

My point about despair is that it happens in a moment of realization, and that moment can have any length of buildup. The guy in the boat knows as soon as he sees the rotten food that he is probably screwed. When the manager sees blatant theft, there's no fixing anything. He knows he has to call the police and it's going to be a shitstorm, and he may himself be culpable. The Maiden of Light saw the evil that the BStone E had done and despaired when she saw it. I just really don't see an intended implication of time passing.

Also, the Long Night lasting any more than a few years is highly problematic. No sun means no crops, no crops means no food. Anything more than a few years and all life on earth ceases to exist. Even if it's just really cloudy and overcast, and not pitch black, only a few plants will grow, and poorly. Most people are gonna die, any way you slice it. Even with the power of dark magic, I cannot see the Bloodstone Emperor launching a giant, multi continent public works project during a time of global famine and anarchy.

This is why I think Asshau must have built pre-LN, probably by the GEotD. Any of the other structures I can see being built in a few years, although Yeen is a stretch and to me it's the most mysterious of all the greasy stone spots. But Asshai is so huge, I just cannot see any explanation for it other than it was built by a huge, wealthy, and technologically and or magically advanced society.

[BalerionTheCat]

The LN was certainly the downfall of the BSE. According to legends, it lasted one generation. But everything, trees and animals should die in one or two years. Without the sun's energy, even the atmosphere would freeze rapidly. The volcanos and the planet core could provide enough heat for caves (so why the CotF preference for caves). But the surface life would be gone. This is a fantasy world and some lapses are acceptable, but I would suppose the real night was really very short. Even 10 years is a stretch.

BTW, logically, the Northern areas should be in the polar night while the Southern areas should still have a few hours of day's light. But Ashai is the southernmost location and was most likely in the night. So I'm not sure if GRRM really cares for Astronomy and Planetology realism. A very small comet fall could provide the equivalent of a nuclear winter, but not the repetitive winters. And it seems the masters are identifying the summers and winters by looking at the stars. So more like an orbit inclination question.

[LmL]

The LN was certainly the downfall of the BSE. According to legends, it lasted one generation. But everything, trees and animals should die in one or two years. Without the sun's energy, even the atmosphere would freeze rapidly. The volcanos and the planet core could provide enough heat for caves (so why the CotF preference for caves). But the surface life would be gone. This is a fantasy world and some lapses are acceptable, but I would suppose the real night was really very short. Even 10 years is a stretch.

Yes, I agree totally. Anything more than a couple of years is starting to stretch it. I do think the LN wasn't totally pitch black, but rather purple and grey. The sun would have shone very faintly through the haze, meaning that some plants would still grow, but not very well. Food would be very, very limited. Famine would set in shortly.

Cannibalism would be inevitable, and it would be total lawlessness and anarchy. Every power structure in the world would collapse. We are talking about a genetic and social bottleneck event - most people and living things would have died. The survivors would be broken and battered, refugees wherever they were. That's why I think that EVERYTHING that happened before the LN is up for grabs, chronologically speaking. The Dawn Age and Age of Heroes are actually classifications made by the Maesters - the people alive then didn't call it the Dawn or Hero Age. I think the Maesters basically sorted out the super fanciful stuff into the Dawn Age category, and the slightly less wacky stuff, or the things with a bit more verification to them, as the Age of Heroes. I don't think anyone should pay attention to the timeline before the LN.

Consider the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, one of the most important events in the history of Westeros. I do not think the CotF did this - it's totally beyond anything we have seen them do. It doesn't make sense for several reasons, the main one being that the FM were already across the arm, as TWOIAF points out. It was closing the barn door after the cattle were out! It makes no sense to sacrifice a bunch of their own children to break the arm of Dorne after the First Men were already all over Westeros. No sense.

If the COTF have the power to create the Hammer of the Waters, a ridiculously huge explosion powerful enough to destroy an isthmus, then why didn't they use smaller versions of it as a weapon against the FM? Why not "Hammer" their ring forts, or their armies when they gather in large groups? Wouldn't that have sent the FM running with their tales tucked?? Yes, it absolutely would have. If the COTF possessed a weapon like the Hammer, they absolutely would have used it against the FM, but they did not.

We have ZERO proof or even convincing evidence that the COTF are responsible for the Hammer of the Waters. It's merely hearsay that they did it. They themselves don't claim to have done it that we know about. We've never seen them do anything even remotely connected to earthquakes.

There's one tower at Moat Cailin where supposedly the COTF were when they called down the Hammer on the Neck, which they supposedly did after the breaking of the Arm of Dorne. This almost makes sense, as it rendered the land around Moat Cailin impassible - but it's not like the COTF occupied the North afterwards and abandoned the south. They disappeared from the main areas of North and South, fading into the deep forests and hollow hills and caves, but remained in these woods and caves all through Westeros, north and south. So they did not use Moat Cailin as a barrier, like the Kings in the North did after them. And since when do COTF hang out inside castles anyway? Why would they gather in a tower at MoT Cailin to work magic? That's totally inconsistent with the COTF. The whole thing stinks.

I say the arm of Dorne broke when a huge piece of moon rock smashed into it, triggering earthquakes and tsunamis. Is this the hellacious storm of Durran Godsgrief perhaps? Oh and look - one of the Stepstones is called "bloodstone," how interesting.

A huge meteor striking an isthmus and blowing it to smithereens, causing huge tsunamis and earthquakes - now that's an event that could be remembered as the "Hammer of the Waters."

[BalerionTheCat]

Consider the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, ...

Yes, the CotF breaking the Arm of Dorne to prevent the First Men invasion do not make much sense. They could have done it for another purpose. A one time powerful magic they could not repeat, even on a lesser scale. Or someone else did it, for example to prevent further exodus from Essos. A small meteorite? Why not, but I don't see why there, and for which purpose exactly. I don't have much faith in the Moon's cracking and dragons pouring from it. But it is just me. I would believe in the Stone Fallen from the Sky, because of the Shadow Land. And that this Stone gave to men the magic to breed dragons. We could perhaps connect such meteorite with the Starfall of the Daynes, but only if the records are crappy there also.

Concerning the maesters, their knowledge of these eras is very limited, I agree. But these are the only records we have this side of the world. And I would try to match our theories as close to them as we can. The priestly scribes of Yin seem to have done a better job of keeping historical records, however. And they are no less amazing.

[Equilibrium]

George even lists an equivalent to the seven deadly sins (it's still weird that serial killer is the president now and has his own TV show... weird)

And he is still a serial killer, good to see power hasn't gotten into his head and he is still faithful to his roots.

[LmL]

And he is still a serial killer, good to see power hasn't gotten into his head and he is still faithful to his roots.

YES EQ, glad someone got my joke. Smart criminals wear suits. :)

[oursisthefury69]

Dont get me wrong but I think you are giving too much credit to a fancy story that we all learned its existence in the world book.

This is a classic "i didnt pick up on the significance so lets discredit it based on it being from the worldbook and not the unfinished series."

[oursisthefury69]

Also, the Long Night lasting any more than a few years is highly problematic. No sun means no crops, no crops means no food. Anything more than a few years and all life on earth ceases to exist. Even if it's just really cloudy and overcast, and not pitch black, only a few plants will grow, and poorly. Most people are gonna die, any way you slice it. Even with the power of dark magic, I cannot see the Bloodstone Emperor launching a giant, multi continent public works project during a time of global famine and anarchy.

??

You realize there pretty much was a Long Night in real life like 70,000 years ago?

Few plants did grow, most people did die

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

??

You realize there pretty much was a Long Night in real life like 70,000 years ago?

Few plants did grow, most people did die

True that. It reduced the human population to only a few thousand, but they did survive.

[LmL]

There have been several "genetic bottleneck" events in earth's history, absolutely. I'm not sure why you put the question marks - those real life examples are what I was basing my conclusion on, that most people would die and few plants would grow.

Usually these 'nuclear winters' are connected to a comet impact or supermassive volcanic eruption. Many scientists are looking at a comet strike to explain the "younger dryas," which was a brief (1000 year) cold period during the ending of the last ice age. This was a reversal in the warming trend which began in 15,000 BC and ended in 7,000 BC. During these 8 millennia of warming, sea levels rose over 400 feet due to the melting ice caps - but during the younger dryas, a 1000 year mini ice age, there was a total reversal and temperatures plunged. Scientists were puzzled by this for a long time, but it's looking like there was a comet strike right about the time of the beginning of this period.

This is consistent with what the Worldbook says about the earth being a broken thing, and the Great Empire was not reborn. The survivors scattered. It was total upheaval, social and political - every power structure toppled. People really had to start over. The climate would have changed. Certain plants or animals may be extinct, at least in a local area. Living would have been hard, and it likely would have been at least a couple of centuries before anyone could organize any type of "civilization."

That's why I say everything that happened before the Long Night is totally up for grabs chronologically.

[Cryler]

I agree, Quaithe is very bad counsel. She wanted Dany to go east and south. That is Ashai and Sothoryos. Places Euron already visited.

She could be Shiera Seastar, but I don't think she is Melisandre's mother.

I find it funny people look into everything and take Quaithe's directions literally.

To go north you must go south. To go west you must go east. To go forward you must go back. To reach the light you must pass beneath the shadow. I think I remember that right.

Anyway, reflection is the point her whole if I look back I am lost gives it away. She needs to look back. At her father, dragons, heritage, everything she shunned or ignored about her family. Pass beneath the shadow of the Mad King and reach the light of Danaerys Targaryen.

[Equilibrium]

YES EQ, glad someone got my joke. Smart criminals wear suits. :)

Or embroidered plum color doublets