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The Blackfyre


Lost Melnibonean

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To be fair to Ser Eric, I understand he doesn't believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son but rather a pisswater prince, and the Golden Company only cares about getting what's theirs in Westeros.

I thought upthread he said that fAegon 'might be a random valyrian looking kid.' Implying that he was more likely the real Aegon. If I was wrong about that, sorry.

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Well not for Dany, for Illyrio. They've never spoken to Dany, and when Viserys did approach them once they laughed at him. It was Illyrio who they agreed for. And Illyrio told Tyrion that they did it for blood, not money. Your whole argument hangs on the idea that Illyrio paid them off-screen and then lied about it to Tyrion.

No, for Dany. That's what everyone in the GC was told and their only concern was turning down big money, not that they were supporting a Targaryen. That's because they don't really care anymore.

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There are no more Blackfyres in the company. They are composed of troops and commanders from everywhere.

They have been fighting for decades in the disputed lands. What does that have to do with Westeros?

We have no idea how much Illyrio has already paid them.

It's the biggest reward mission there is. Lands and castles are worth more than gold. Look at the Second Sons. They take on Tyrion, a convicted kinslayer and kingslayer with the expectation that they will win him Casterly Rock . They are even less well trained, armored, and have no alliances, yet they will do it anyway. Life is about taking chances.

Harry Strickland boasts that he's gold for four generations. And we learned this about the ASOIAF universe from Hoster Blackwood...

"... The Old King's Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That's how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."

"There could be."

"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone."

--So Martin explains how such blood fueds can last not only generations but centuries. Even after fifty years of peace (how long ago did Maelys die?) old wounds reopen. The only way to seal them is to destroy the other house.

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I'm not talking about the whole GC, I'm talking about the people who made the deal Strickland and Illyrio. Strickland never made a deal with Dany, he made it with Illyrio....for blood. For revenge, Stricklands legacy is just as intertwined with the Blackfyre history as Illyrio's is. They want what they've always wanted; to put the heir of Dameon Blackfyre on the IT.





ETA: As backed up by the post above this.



"Dead men don't claim vengeance, their sons do."


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Please provide the textual evidencethat it's definitely not the case anymore.

I don't know why everyone is being so unreasonable LOL. The textual evidence that it's not the case is that "everyone knows" the Blackfyre pretensions to the Iron Throne ended forty years ago when Barristan the Bold slew Maelys the Monstrous on the Stepstones. "Everyone knows" this because the male line was ended and there hasn't been a peep of Blackfyre pretension since then. Instead, the GC has operated as a diverse multinational sellsword company in Essos, and as far as I know, Strickland is the only surviving member with a Blackfyre connection.

Does that "prove" anything to a certainty? Of course not, but it's quite a lot of textual evidence for the conventional wisdom. The case that it's not true is based on hints, suggestions and speculations -- or circumstantial evidence, if we're generous. I personally find the hints somewhat convincing -- or certainly compelling -- but Ser Eric isn't wrong to point out the lack of real evidence.

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I have to be honest. The posts you have quoted is not evidence. I'm not arguing that the GC was founded with the goal to seat a BLackfyre on the throne. That is not up for debate. What I'm arguing is that it's quite apparent that it is no longer the case given what we've seen in the books. From the very quote you posted:

They just want to go home. They no longer care whether it's with a Targaryen or Blackfyre.

Isn't that what Illyrio said as he smiled through his forked beard?
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I don't know why everyone is being so unreasonable LOL. The textual evidence that it's not the case is that "everyone knows" the Blackfyre pretensions to the Iron Throne ended forty years ago when Barristan the Bold slew Maelys the Monstrous on the Stepstones. "Everyone knows" this because the male line was ended and there hasn't been a peep of Blackfyre pretension since then. Instead, the GC has operated as a diverse multinational sellsword company in Essos, and as far as I know, Strickland is the only surviving member with a Blackfyre connection.

Does that "prove" anything to a certainty? Of course not, but it's quite a lot of textual evidence for the conventional wisdom. The case that it's not true is based on hints, suggestions and speculations -- or circumstantial evidence, if we're generous. I personally find the hints somewhat convincing -- or certainly compelling -- but Ser Eric isn't wrong to point out the lack of real evidence.

What would constitute 'real evidence'? For Illyrio to make a banner that says; 'I am a Blackfyre the grandson of Maelys, here is my son. I have been scheming for 20 years to put him on the Iron Throne.' ?

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Honestly, I've never cared whether Aegon's a Targaryen, a Blackfyre, a Dayne, what have you.


All I care about is: is he a good leader? We haven't seen enough of him for me to say (anyone about to quote the Cyvasse thing with Tyrion can stop right there, that proves nothing :P), so I'll hold off until Winds of Winter.



Who knows, maybe he'll die in the first chapter of Winds of Winter, wouldn't that throw readers for a loop...


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Isn't that what Illyrio said as he smiled through his forked beard?

This is not really going anywhere is it? lol

I'll list my reservations below:

1. The idea that GC still holds strongly to their founding belies is rather tenuous based on textual evidence. We have more than one character even excluding Illyrio who think the GC is not what it was and they just want to go home.

2. Because of 1, the idea that because GC is now backing Aegon=Aegon is a Blackfre is very farfetched because the assumption itself is shaky at best.

3. So any evidence for Aegon being a BF must start with Aegon himself. And this is where the theory falls down because people have to resort to multiple assumptions plucked out of thin air. Illyrio being Aegon's father is a somewhat reasonable assumption given the clues but assuming he's a Blackfyre or Serra being Varys sister who is a Blackfyre are just plain gibberish.

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Those aren't comparable. The difference is that the Golden Company is, at this point, rather diverse. Even among the leadership, many have no connection to old rebellions.

Franklin Flowers just wants to kill Fossoways.

Tristan Rivers is just tired of waiting around.

Jon Lothston's house was historically aligned against the Blackfyres.

Black Balaq is a Summer Islander.

Lysono Maar is a Lysenni sellsword.

Gorys Edoryen is Volantene.

If Aegon is a Blackfyre, I think I disagree with LM: I suspect Harry Strickland is the only one who knows it -- and that's one reason he's the only one who wants to stick to (the most recent version of) Illyrio's plan.

You certainly aren't alone!
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What would constitute 'real evidence'? For Illyrio to make a banner that says; 'I am a Blackfyre the grandson of Maelys, here is my son. I have been scheming for 20 years to put him on the Iron Throne.' ?

The sarcasm isn't necessary. There's a spectrum of evidence, from "hint" to "POV character's thoughts." Based on what LM has admirably laid out, we don't get very far along that spectrum. Show me more GC besides Strickland with a connection to the old rebellions. Show me someone, anyone, thinking about how they'll deal with Dany (as a Targaryen enemy, rather than a potential Targaryen ally). I mean, I could make a huge list of real evidence, but Illyrio smiling through his forked beard wouldn't make the list. ;)

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This is not really going anywhere is it? lol

I'll list my reservations below:

1. The idea that GC still holds strongly to their founding belies is rather tenuous based on textual evidence. We have more than one character even excluding Illyrio who think the GC is not what it was and they just want to go home.

2. Because of 1, the idea that because GC is now backing Aegon=Aegon is a Blackfre is very farfetched because the assumption itself is shaky at best.

3. So any evidence for Aegon being a BF must start with Aegon himself. And this is where the theory falls down because people have to resort to multiple assumptions plucked out of thin air. Illyrio being Aegon's father is a somewhat reasonable assumption given the clues but assuming he's a Blackfyre or Serra being Varys sister who is a Blackfyre are just plain gibberish.

but in the mind of the author what is the purpose of using this particular free company if their backstory is meaningless? fAegon and Illyrio could have hired any sellswords they wanted, why would GRRM choose this one?

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but in the mind of the author what is the purpose of using this particular free company if their backstory is meaningless? fAegon and Illyrio could have hired any sellswords they wanted, why would GRRM choose this one?

I assumed because they're the most numerous, with War Elephants (big advantage), and a reputation of never breaking a contract. They sound like the best of the Free Companies by far, I'd hire them if I could over all the other combined.

Plus a lot of them are Westerosi, thus presumably have contacts and knowledge of Westeros, which would be useful for invading that land.

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but in the mind of the author what is the purpose of using this particular free company if their backstory is meaningless? fAegon and Illyrio could have hired any sellswords they wanted, why would GRRM choose this one?

Because they have an interest in regime change in Westeros, so they can go home. The regime change they need doesn't require a Blackfyre.

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but in the mind of the author what is the purpose of using this particular free company if their backstory is meaningless? fAegon and Illyrio could have hired any sellswords they wanted, why would GRRM choose this one?

Because they are the best company with the largest army and a strong burning desire to return to Westeros. A combination that I imagine is quite unique among such companies especially as an actual motive other than money. Returning home to Westeros was also one of their aims lest we forget.

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Perhaps it's irony. The mercenary company once founded to overthrow the Targaryens will be instrumental in the Targaryen Restoration. But in any case, efforts to divine the literary intentions of the author don't count as "textual evidence" for a theory.


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