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The Blackfyre


Lost Melnibonean

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Aegon was four when he was introduced to Jon Connington. Rhaegar’s son would have been six at that time. A four-year-old boy can pass for six year old boy, especially, when you are passing him off to a man who never raised any kids on his own, and might only have ever seen Rhaegar’s son a handful of times when he was a year old or less. I highly doubt that men like Jon Connington spent much time around toddlers. Other than their own children, they would have only interacted regularly with boys after they were six or seven and serving as pages. Even if Jon had thought that Aegon looked small, he would have recalled that

Rhaegar’s son would have been 18 when we met Young Griff...

Quote

YOUNG GRIFF, a blue-haired lad of eighteen years.

Appendix, Dance

But Tyrion tells us that he looked one to four years younger than that...

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The dwarf put his age at fifteen, sixteen, or near enough to make no matter.

Tyrion III, Dance 8

Readers that believe the pisswater switcheroo point to this passage to show that Tyrion’s age approximations cannot be trusted...

Quote

Tyrion sighed. "You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?"

"Fourteen," the boy said.

Tyrion II, Game 13

Readers that believe Illyrio and Varys have been working for 17 years to put a son of Illyrio with Blackfyre ancestry on the Iron Throne figure Tyrion guessed right this time.  Unless we rely on coincidence (Illyrio just happened to have a little Targaryen look-alike at just the right moment), for the Blackfyre theory to work, Aegon could be as old as 16. The current year is 300, and the Sack of King’s Landing took place in 283. Illyrio would have needed about a year to make his little dragon, so that Aegon could have been born as early as 284, which would make him 16 when we meet Young Griff, just as Tyron suggests. If so, then our Aegon is only two years younger than Rhaegar’s son would have been.

Aerys exiled Jon Connington before the Sack of King’s Landing...

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"After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him."

Jaime V, Storm 37

Jon Connington must have joined the Golden Company around the time King’s Landing fell...

Quote

"You do not know these men, my lord. It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."

...

He had spent five years with the company, rising from the ranks to a place of honor at Toyne's right hand.

The Lost Lord, Dance

Since Jon joined the Golden Company in 283, and if our wee Aegon was born in 284, and since Varys introduced Aegon to Jon in 288, Aegon would have been four, and Rhaegar’s son would have been six.

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On 8/22/2016 at 0:50 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

1. tomAto, tomAHto

2. Are you sure Tyrion was misjudging Jon's age? Could he have been toying with him? Reread Tyrion II in Game for context. Jon was asking Tyrion why he reads so much and Tyrion set about to educate him. He started by asking him, "You're what, about 12?" Tyrion was likely being sarcastic, taking him down a peg so to speak. But if you disagree then maybe Tyrion should get a pass anyway since Joffrey was 12 but taller than Jon and Robb. 

More like tomato, pumpkin. There's a big enough difference between someone going to the king with an agenda and someone being invited to court.

Ha ha. in this series, it's hard to be sure of anything. I'll reread that and see if maybe I've forgotten or missed something. But even without Tyrion specifically being bad at judging ages from looks, people in general have that problem. People do not always look their ages and guessing ages doesn't usually win people many prizes at fairs and carnivals--which is why it's still a standard game, almost entirely profit.

On 8/22/2016 at 4:17 AM, Lord Varys said:

The reason why the hell Aerys sent for Varys and why Varys came to KL is a different chapter all in itself. As is the question whether Varys destabilized Aerys' reign or fueled his madness. We know from TWoIaF when exactly Duskendale took place and what impact that had on Aerys' mental health and paranoia. We also know that Aerys mistrusting Tywin and Rhaegar goes back to Tywin's words outside of Duskendale. In that sense it is rather difficult to blame Varys for the general state of mind Aerys II was in during his last years unless we assume it somehow got worse still.

<snip

But couldn't that be a hint towards the reader as you say Moqorro's talk could be? You have to use the same standards there. And in ADwD we get Tyrion's reasoning as to why Aegon is as young as he thinks he is. He describes his body and points out that the lad looks as if he is not yet fully grown. An eighteen-year-old mostly is already fully grown or at least looks that way.

Well, if we went that way then his talk would be meaningless in-universe, though. Moqorro sees his dragons in the fire and if he saw actual persons then those wouldn't be bright and dark or true and false. If he saw a version of Dany's cloth dragon then it makes sense that he could interpret this as a fake dragon in comparison to a real dragon like Daenerys. But if he also saw literal dragons (as they often appear in visions and dreams) then he could really have just seen Drogon and Viserion.

But Illyrio claims he has sway over the Golden Company because of a contract written in blood. Whose blood is he talking about there? Most likely his own.

Whoa! Slow down there, buddy. You seem to think I am a proponent of the Varys-is-evil-and-deliberately-destroyed-the-Targs line of thinking.  No, not at all. Varys wasn't remotely responsible for Aerys' going nuts, as you say that all kicked into gear with Duskendale. We are in perfect agreement on this. I merely think that it's important to remember (and point out for others at times) that Varys did not just up and go to King's Landing. He was summoned, which supports the fact that Aerys was nuts, and the likelihood that Varys was not enacting some long-range anti-Targ agenda by moving to Westeros. Which in the end shoots some Brightfyre theorists in the proverbial foot. Not all Brightfyre supporters suggest that the plotting went back that far, but I have seen it suggested. So yeah, we're on the same page here LV.

We don't have to use the same standards in different situations--in fact there are times when it might even be silly to do so. It's one thing to analyze what Tyrion thinks, since we have his POV and have gotten to know him so well in the series, and another to analyze what Moqorro (a character we don't know all that well) claims he saw in a vision. Two different characters, two different motivations. Besides which, not all eighteen-year-olds look fully grown, and boys far more often than girls fall into the not-looking-fully-grown category. Heck, some people don't look fully grown even in their prime.

Moqorro saw dragons yes. But...my point is that he either saw metaphorical dragons (a la dragon = Targ) or he saw literal ones. He likely did not see both. I don't think he saw people. I just think the dragons he saw either represented people or didn't. And if they represented real, actual, fire-breathing dragons...well then we're three dragons short at the moment. Not an insurmountable issue by any means. But, okay let's go with bright and dark referring to Viserion and Drogon. Where's Rhaegel? Did he die? Did he fly off into the sunset? Why include those two and not him? I'm sure there is a plausible reason but I can't quite grasp it at the moment (short of sleep here).

This wouldn't be the first time a contract has involved someone who wasn't bound by said contract. Where was the betrothal between Viserys and Arianne signed? Braavos. And witnessed by the Sealord himself who had no stake in it. Yes it does make a lot more sense if Illyrio's blood is personally involved but it's conceivable that he could be the keeper/witness of a blood contract rather than a participant in it. Depending on what the contract is (assuming we're talking about an actual, physical document) he who has it may have the ability to hold it over the heads of the signers and/or their descendants. If the contract writ in blood is a metaphor, then of course that entirely points to Illyrio's being genetically involved, as you say.

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On 8/22/2016 at 11:21 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Readers that believe the pisswater switcheroo point to this passage to show that Tyrion’s age approximations cannot be trusted...

So Tyrion no guessing right one day but then he are am guessing right later?

Utter BS,

*This is hyperbole. BTW. Just a joke...

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7 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

So Tyrion no guessing right one day but then he are am guessing right later?

Utter BS,

 

If both your assumptions are correct, then the Blackfyre theory in most of it's variations must fail, no?

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If both your assumptions are correct, then the Blackfyre theory in most of it's variations must fail, no?

I was just teasing the criticism of Tyrion's "guessing ability."

It's silly to even factor in one wrong guess. It's an estimation.

I think Aegon is probably not Rhaegar's son. If he is not a Blackfyre, it's a Red Herring.

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13 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I was just teasing the criticism of Tyrion's "guessing ability."

It's silly to even factor in one wrong guess. It's an estimation.

I think Aegon is probably not Rhaegar's son. If he is not a Blackfyre, it's a Red Herring.

I have seen people here reject the Blackfyre theory based on Tyrion's saying to Jon, "You're what, twelve?" 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I have seen people here reject the Blackfyre theory based on Tyrion's saying to Jon, "You're what, twelve?" 

Well, you know.. The world is split up into two types of people: Those who always guess right. And those who always guess wrong.

GRRM turned out 3 novellas to familiarize us with Blood Raven and the Blackfyres.

Look, the second son's declare for Daenerys with a red cyvasse dragon. And Doran sends Arianne to treat with Aegon's team, with a black cyvasse dragon. This is trademark GRRM foreshadowing. If Aegon is NOT a Blackfyre, he is a Red Herring, because GRRM is really making it look like he is.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Whoa! Slow down there, buddy. You seem to think I am a proponent of the Varys-is-evil-and-deliberately-destroyed-the-Targs line of thinking.  

Didn't think that. Just addressed because it is fun. I tend to talk about stuff nobody has actually mentioned a lot ;-).

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No, not at all. Varys wasn't remotely responsible for Aerys' going nuts, as you say that all kicked into gear with Duskendale. We are in perfect agreement on this. I merely think that it's important to remember (and point out for others at times) that Varys did not just up and go to King's Landing. He was summoned, which supports the fact that Aerys was nuts, and the likelihood that Varys was not enacting some long-range anti-Targ agenda by moving to Westeros. Which in the end shoots some Brightfyre theorists in the proverbial foot. Not all Brightfyre supporters suggest that the plotting went back that far, but I have seen it suggested. So yeah, we're on the same page here LV.

There is a certain chance that Varys might have pulled some strings and planted agents at court to ensure that Aerys learned of his existence and eventually considered hiring him. But we'll have to wait and see how this turns out. I'm pretty sure Varys' time with Aerys and him being hired will be addressed in detail in later books. George is definitely not done with Varys yet. He still has a lot to do and quite a lot has to be revealed about him before he can go - if he dies at all, that is.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We don't have to use the same standards in different situations--in fact there are times when it might even be silly to do so. It's one thing to analyze what Tyrion thinks, since we have his POV and have gotten to know him so well in the series, and another to analyze what Moqorro (a character we don't know all that well) claims he saw in a vision. Two different characters, two different motivations. Besides which, not all eighteen-year-olds look fully grown, and boys far more often than girls fall into the not-looking-fully-grown category. Heck, some people don't look fully grown even in their prime.

Sure, but while I think Young Griffin being identified as being eighteen in the appendix and Tyrion estimating he is 15-16 in the written text can definitely be interpreted as a hint I have difficulties interpreting Moqorro's talk the same way. It is just cool talk about dragons which might cause some people to think but not really any direct clue of any sort. The choice of words may be deliberate in a certain directions but if George really wanted to give us clues there he would have allowed Tyrion to actual see the visions in the fire Moqorro spoke about.

We don't even know whether he was talking about as many different dragons as he mentioned or whether some of them combined the qualities he mentioned.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Moqorro saw dragons yes. But...my point is that he either saw metaphorical dragons (a la dragon = Targ) or he saw literal ones. He likely did not see both.

Why not? Considering that we have now 'dragon people' and 'literal dragons' out there visions could actually refer to both of them causing even more confusion than before. In fact, my first interpretation of Teora Toland's dragon dreams of the dancing dragons causing the death of people was Dany's dragons killing people in the Dothraki Sea and Slaver's Bay, especially Quentyn. Mostly because I knew the chapter was originally supposed to appear in ADwD and the whole Quentyn demise thing included the whole 'if dance with dragons...' phrase which was referencing the title of the book.

It surely could also be a hint towards a Second Dance considering that George has announced there will be such a thing. But that certainly isn't the only possible interpretation.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't think he saw people. I just think the dragons he saw either represented people or didn't. And if they represented real, actual, fire-breathing dragons...well then we're three dragons short at the moment. Not an insurmountable issue by any means. But, okay let's go with bright and dark referring to Viserion and Drogon. Where's Rhaegel? Did he die? Did he fly off into the sunset? Why include those two and not him? I'm sure there is a plausible reason but I can't quite grasp it at the moment (short of sleep here).

No idea why Moqorro would only see these two dragons. I'm just saying he could have seen them and they would fit those descriptions, too.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This wouldn't be the first time a contract has involved someone who wasn't bound by said contract. Where was the betrothal between Viserys and Arianne signed? Braavos. And witnessed by the Sealord himself who had no stake in it. Yes it does make a lot more sense if Illyrio's blood is personally involved but it's conceivable that he could be the keeper/witness of a blood contract rather than a participant in it. Depending on what the contract is (assuming we're talking about an actual, physical document) he who has it may have the ability to hold it over the heads of the signers and/or their descendants. If the contract writ in blood is a metaphor, then of course that entirely points to Illyrio's being genetically involved, as you say.

I don't think there is an actual contract. What Illyrio is talking about is the deal he and Varys made with Myles Toyne. However, there has to be an explanation why that guy should make such a deal with Illyrio and Varys. If Serra is already dead by that time (and this seems likely) then Varys and Illyrio would be the people making the deal. The blood thing is the explanation as to why that deal came into being. And Toyne wouldn't have made a deal with a eunuch thief and some up-jumped fat bravo. That doesn't make any sense.

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On 8/23/2016 at 4:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Didn't think that. Just addressed because it is fun. I tend to talk about stuff nobody has actually mentioned a lot ;-).

<snip

Sure, but while I think Young Griffin being identified as being eighteen in the appendix and Tyrion estimating he is 15-16 in the written text can definitely be interpreted as a hint I have difficulties interpreting Moqorro's talk the same way. It is just cool talk about dragons which might cause some people to think but not really any direct clue of any sort. The choice of words may be deliberate in a certain directions but if George really wanted to give us clues there he would have allowed Tyrion to actual see the visions in the fire Moqorro spoke about.

We don't even know whether he was talking about as many different dragons as he mentioned or whether some of them combined the qualities he mentioned.Why not? Considering that we have now 'dragon people' and 'literal dragons' out there visions could actually refer to both of them causing even more confusion than before.

Spoiler

 

In fact, my first interpretation of Teora Toland's dragon dreams of the dancing dragons causing the death of people was Dany's dragons killing people in the Dothraki Sea and Slaver's Bay, especially Quentyn. Mostly because I knew the chapter was originally supposed to appear in ADwD and the whole Quentyn demise thing included the whole 'if dance with dragons...' phrase which was referencing the title of the book.

It surely could also be a hint towards a Second Dance considering that George has announced there will be such a thing. But that certainly isn't the only possible interpretation.

 

<snip, and accidentally cut of the start of the next sentence too...oops

n actual contract. What Illyrio is talking about is the deal he and Varys made with Myles Toyne. However, there has to be an explanation why that guy should make such a deal with Illyrio and Varys. If Serra is already dead by that time (and this seems likely) then Varys and Illyrio would be the people making the deal. The blood thing is the explanation as to why that deal came into being. And Toyne wouldn't have made a deal with a eunuch thief and some up-jumped fat bravo. That doesn't make any sense.

Ah, we are kindred spirits! :cheers:

Not necessarily. What people see in the flames depends partly on them. Mel never said anything about seeing Stannis' crown burning him alive, but that's what Stannis saw in the flames. So either people see what they want (or what they fear) or R'hllor sends different visions to different people. By having the vision be Moqorro's instead of Tyrion's, The George keeps us guessing.

There's also a possibility that being able to see anything in the flames requires a certain level of faith. Mel and Moqorro believe 100%. Stannis is on the fence, but leans toward believing. Tyrion doesn't much believe in anything at the moment. So maybe he couldn't see any visions right now. *shrug*

A very good point!  But if we try and put all three pairs together we end up with Bloodraven (old, dark, true or false) or someone else like the Tattered Prince/Lysonos Maar (old, bright, false) vs Dany (young, bright, true or false) or Jon (young, bright, true) or Aegon (young, bright, true or false). The George did the pairs thing before with Quaithe's warning to Dany about who was headed her way. Each pair was separate. Doesn't mean he had to do it the same way this time, of course. Maybe after school starts up again I'll be able to go through the text and look at other ways GRRM has used pairs in lists and find a precedent or lack thereof.

Admittedly, my arguments against that are not spectacularly strong. The first being that since we have an uneven number of dragons I don't think it likely that GRRM would mix the two because it would mean one pair of humans, one pair of dragons, and one pair of a human and a dragon. Sure the last one could be Dany and Drogon, with the other dragons remaining unclaimed, but I think we'll see all three dragons ridden.  The second, and a far weaker argument, is because it would be more confusing and we're already confused enough. Third--and this JUST popped into my head--Moqorro is Essosi, and they have a different take on the whole person = their sigil thing than the Westerosi do. But since we don't get Moqorro's POV, it's hard to say what he saw. He could even be lying to Tyrion, although I can't think of a specific reason to do this; and we readers already know that it's a safe bet Tyrion WILL be in the midst of the dragons, quite possibly snarling.

Spoiler

I figured from the first that Teora was talking about a second Dance of the Dragons, maybe without even realizing it. For all the things that went on with Valyrian dragonlords and their various wars, the term dancing dragons seems to be used exclusively to refer to Targs in Westeros. But that's another case of something we may learn later that changes what we thought we knew.

That will depend on when the agreement/pact/contact was made with Toyne. If it's about Aegon then it could be along the lines of what Illyrio said to Tyrion "red or black a dragon is a dragon." Perhaps by the time a few generations had passed the men of the Golden Company just wanted a way home, and Rhaegar's son makes a very nice one-way ticket. Exiled for supporting the wrong prince, the GC descendants come home with the right one. V & I could definitely sell that, with or without Aegon being the real deal. And if they had JonCon there say "yes, this is Rhaegar's boy" it would have gone smoothly.

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22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Lord Varys and @Lady Blizzardborn, please use spoiler tags when discussing material from Winds, ie, Teora. 

Sorry. I forgot that that wasn't from Dance.

BTW, I did reread the scene with Tyrion and Jon. Could go either way as to whether he was genuinely guessing Jon's age, or just trying to annoy him.

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Kraken's Daughter, Feast 11

Sorry, that is no great metaphysical truth underlaying Martinworld but a nod towards George's colleague James Oliver Rigney, Jr., who published The Wheel of Time using the pen name Robert Jordan.

And it is pretty clear that George's series is not governed by weirdo metaphysics like an eternal circle of rebirths and the return of the same stuff.

There are similar patterns and stuff because his series is about nobles and kings fighting for power but we also have that in the real world. Edward II and Richard II were both deposed and died in captivity but that is all they have in common (apart from some quite some genes, of course).

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50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, that is no great metaphysical truth underlaying Martinworld but a nod towards George's colleague James Oliver Rigney, Jr., who published The Wheel of Time using the pen name Robert Jordan.

And it is pretty clear that George's series is not governed by weirdo metaphysics like an eternal circle of rebirths and the return of the same stuff.

There are similar patterns and stuff because his series is about nobles and kings fighting for power but we also have that in the real world. Edward II and Richard II were both deposed and died in captivity but that is all they have in common (apart from some quite some genes, of course).

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Here is the way I amended the relevant portion of the OP...

The Wheel of Time

Of course, we also saw the Blackfyre revisited in The Soiled Knight, Feast 13...

Quote

". . . Are you aware that the Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr?"

"Sellswords break their contracts all the time."

"Not the Golden Company. Our word is good as gold has been their boast since the days of Bittersteel. Myr is on the point of war with Lys and Tyrosh. Why break a contract that offered them the prospect of good wages and good plunder?"

"Perhaps Lys offered them better wages. Or Tyrosh."

"No, she said. I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It's home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions." She took Ser Arys by the hand, and wove her fingers through his own. "Have you ever seen the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill?"

He had to think a moment. "A dragon eating its own tail?"

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again."Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother's ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is." She tossed her hair defiantly. "So your two princesses share a common cause, ser . . . and they share as well a knight who claims to love them both, but will not fight for them."

This was the first we learned of the most formidable of the sellsword companies, which was founded by Bittersteel with those Blackfyre loyalists that had followed him across the Narrow Sea. They continued to fight for gold, but we were told that they want home, i.e., the Seven Kingdoms. We also read that Bittersteel returned two more times to lead the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. And then, perhaps most importantly, we read the arms of House Toland, a dragon eating its own tail, and we were told that the dragon was time, and all things come round again. This was not just homage to Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. The George was clearly telling us early in the second act of ASOIAF, when Daenerys Targaryen would return to reclaim her fathers throne, that the Blackfyre, or at least something like it, would return.

And the passage recalled another homage to Robert Jordan and the Wheel of Time. Note that Jordan's true name was James Rigney...

Quote

"Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said."

The Kraken's Daughter, Feast 11

Sorry, I would think the better counter argument would be that The George merely intended the repetition-of-history thing here, in The Kraken's Daughter, merely to foreshadow Euron's attempted purge following the kingsmoot, based on Rodrik's reading of Urron Greyiron's action. But of course that would require a more accurate understanding of the actual context of the greater passage and recitation to it rather than your own recollection of what you read several years ago. 

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Nope, that is just a reference to The Wheel of Time just as the other references to various other authors and their works are just that - references to those authors and their works.

The Church of Starry Wisdom is not going to get important and neither are Elyas and Josua, the quarrelsome sons of Lord Willum, ever going to play an important role in this story.

The ability to predict certain plot lines in this story is due to the way it has been set up. But that doesn't mean we have a metaphysical underlying that is based on the return of the past - especially not in a way which allows us to predict future events on the basis of some clues. There are some hints in the story as to how things might turn out but you can overdo this thing. Especially if you know that George doesn't like to write stories where he knows the outcome/ending already.

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There's some intriguing evidence Aegon VI is in fact a descendant of the female Blackfyre line. The key here is the Golden Company, founded by Bittersteel with the stated purpose of installing a Blackfyre on the IT. Why did they shun Viserys (ADWD: Dany III), but support  Aegon? He is really Aegon Blackfyre. There is also some pretty obvious foreshadowing in Meribalds iron dragon story in AFFC. He could be a red herring, but it would be interesting if Aegon is a link to the importance of the Blackfyres in the novellas. Either way, or even if he actually is Rhaegar's son, I doubt Aegon and the GC will be able to withstand dragons should push come to shove.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, that is just a reference to The Wheel of Time just as the other references to various other authors and their works are just that - references to those authors and their works.

The Church of Starry Wisdom is not going to get important and neither are Elyas and Josua, the quarrelsome sons of Lord Willum, ever going to play an important role in this story.

The ability to predict certain plot lines in this story is due to the way it has been set up. But that doesn't mean we have a metaphysical underlying that is based on the return of the past - especially not in a way which allows us to predict future events on the basis of some clues. There are some hints in the story as to how things might turn out but you can overdo this thing. Especially if you know that George doesn't like to write stories where he knows the outcome/ending already.

Just to clear the air, and any straw men, I have never suggested any metaphysical reincarnation or exact duplication of history is a component of this tale. I do believe that The George foreshadows a lot, though. Consider this for example...

Quote

 

Ser Osmund Kettleblack brought Clegane his shield, a massive thing of heavy oak rimmed in black iron. As the Mountain slid his left arm through the straps, Tyrion saw that the hounds of Clegane had been painted over. This morning Ser Gregor bore the seven-pointed star the Andals had brought to Westeros when they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the First Men and their gods.

...

Gregor's big wooden shield took its share of hits as well, until a dog's head peeped out from under the star, and elsewhere the raw oak showed through.

 

Tyrion X, Storm 70

And whenever I read that The George writes like a gardener, and doesn’t know the outcome already, I recall this line from Bran IV, Game 24...

Quote

Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name.

And this passage from the very end of The Sacrifice, Dance 62...

Quote

 

Asha's heart skipped a beat. "Theon? "

His lips skinned back in what might have been a grin. Half his teeth were gone, and half of those still left him were broken and splintered.

"Theon," he repeated. "My name is Theon. You have to know your name. "

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Just to clear the air, and any straw men, I have never suggested any metaphysical reincarnation or exact duplication of history is a component of this tale. I do believe that The George foreshadows a lot, though.

I know that he does. I just think you overdo it at times.

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