Jairion Lannister Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 He did quite well to masquerade as a bumbling old fool, but in all honesty, he really wasn't all that smart. Not a complete idiot, but not too intelligent. Tyrion fooled him easily in ACOK, unlike Varys/LF. Cersei should've arguably listened to him more in AFFC, but that was more due to his loyalty than his intelligence. His loyalty (from the Lannisters perspective) is the only real reason to value him. He's someone who continuously served their interests, therefore was never going to be playing his own game or give them deliberately false information unlike others. But while he's not stupid, he rarely seemed to form his own unique ideas or schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Never underestimate a corpse. They have a way of coming back, especially after Qyburn gets his hands on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 underrated, I like to think he was every bit as cunning as LF and Varys in his younger days.Sure, these days he falls asleep during most of his job but let's see how spry LF and Varys are when they are 800 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aderyn Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 To me he doesn't strike as a highly cunning mind like Varys and LF but obviously he isn't utterly stupid either, he was the archmaester after all. His greatest weapon is his vast knowledge that he has acquired over the years. That combined to his tendency to keep low profile and please those who have power has kept him safe. His "game tactics" are very passive and that is why most people think he is just a smelly old goat and don't see him as a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 He did quite well to masquerade as a bumbling old fool, but in all honesty, he really wasn't all that smart. Not a complete idiot, but not too intelligent. Tyrion fooled him easily in ACOK, unlike Varys/LF. Cersei should've arguably listened to him more in AFFC, but that was more due to his loyalty than his intelligence. He was Grand Maester, of course he was very intelligent... Him being somewhat complacent and lacking the ambition to plot by himself does not indicate any sign of stupidity. Littlefinger would have been equally fooled by Tyrion's ploy if he actually had betrayed him to Cersei, as would possibly have Varys for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 He didn't deliver Aegon. Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Regardless, Pycelle would have still seen Aegon in King's Landing befor the sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis'_Barber Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He's like the guy who hides in a corner while playing laser tag, thinking he'll win that waySeriously, though, I think he's first and foremost a survivor, but he's also a relatively competent player, especially because I think he did a good job of pushing the Citadel's agenda.I know many readers think he was a Tywin fanboy, but I think most of his actions can be seen as working towards the Citadel's ideals:- He got Aerys to open the gates, which led to the downfall of the Targs, as the Citadel wanted- Killed Jon Arryn, which in turned prevented Stannis from getting a step closer to the Iron Throne. By that time Melisandre was already in Dragonstone, so I don't think the Citadel would've liked someone magical like herself so close to a potential kingIn that sense, I think he did good. And he tried to stop the Cersei trainwreck i thought Lysa killed Jon Arryn for Littlefinger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rupert Connington Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He was only a survivor. And since he's dead, not a very good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I don't know, lasting to 84 is pretty impressive by Westerosi standards - not to mention lasting 40 years presumably in the hornet's nest of King's Landing and the Small Council as Grandmaester - I'd definitely say he was pretty good at surviving. While I know some here think using the show is some type of cardinal sin, I agree with others that the deleted scene between him and Tywin pegged Pycelle's motives pretty well. The only caveat would be it does appear he may have duel masters in terms of serving the interests of the Citadel as well (in bringing down the Targs and combating any magic). Varys, at least, clearly does not underestimate his abilities based on the timing of his murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flowers Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 If you view him in the context of a being an agent of a possible Citadel faction, with its own interests and motives, he suddenly appears quite a bit differently than he does when one considers him merely to be a toady of Tywin Lannister. And when one considers that at the time of his death, he is the only member of Robert's original Small Council to still hold his position (although Baelish admittedly leaves of his own accord) suggests that his reputation as a survivor, at least politically speaking, is well deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 One thing that many people seem to forget is Pycelle is the head of the Citadel and has been for 40 years. If the Citadel has had a plot going against the Targaryens, then Pycelle has been the head of that plot. Since reading TWOIAF I have become convinced that Pycelle has been one of the biggest players of the past 40 years. Regardless, Pycelle would have still seen Aegon in King's Landing befor the sack. There is no guarantee that the male infant that was brought to KL was Aegon. It is entirely possible that Aegon was never in KL at all and Young Griff is indeed who he claims to be. TWOIAF has made this possibility abundantly clear. Edited to change word purports to claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViserionsFire Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 One thing that many people seem to forget is Pycelle is the head of the Citadel and has been for 40 years. If the Citadel has had a plot going against the Targaryens, then Pycelle has been the head of that plot. Since reading TWOIAF I have become convinced that Pycelle has been one of the biggest players of the past 40 years. I agree. Forty years on the small council covered the last year of Aegon V, Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert, and Cersei (Joffrey, Tomman) rule. What's interesting is that the three previous Grand Maesters that counseled Aegon V died within 2 years. Granted, two of them were quite old and the other died on the way to Kings Landing before he ever got a chance to give Aegon V any counsel. But, within a year of Pycelle arriving to offer counsel to Aegon, Aegon and his eldest son were killed in a mysterious tragedy, which expedited the reign of Jaehaerys who died three years later and then Aerys. A question to be asked is, was Jaehaerys always frail or did he start becoming frail when Pycelle showed up. It's possible that Pycelle was responsible for finishing off all the Dragons like Marwyn told Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 There is no guarantee that the male infant that was brought to KL was Aegon. It is entirely possible that Aegon was never in KL at all and Young Griff is indeed who he claims to be. TWOIAF has made this possibility abundantly clear. All I'm saying is that, if who Varys has is a pretender and Pycelle has seen the real Aegon, it would make sense that Varys would want Pycelle killed in order to prevent a potential problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Actually there is a deleted season 3 GOT scene where Tywin and Pycelle are talking while Tywin is fishing, and Pycelle pretty much lays it all out there he has no interest in gaining power or plotting on anything, he just wants to remain as is and stick around for long as he can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I know many readers think he was a Tywin fanboy, but I think most of his actions can be seen as working towards the Citadel's ideals: I think both can work together. Tywin is definitely a man the Citadel would want as a King. As for the OP, I don't see him as a player but a very valuable piece. True... Pycelle might have thought that Cersei did the deed and he took charge in order to protect her I think it's indicated in Clash that he indeed knew. Pycelle is many things but he's not an idiot. I would say he was sent to the RK because he's not only loyal but observant. He didn't deliver Aegon. Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Aegon was the son of the crown Prince, and Elia's health was very fragile. I don't see odd that they could have requested for him to be there and help in the birth as a way to protect both mother and child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonBlackfyre Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Pycelle was appointed to be Grand Maester, he is not the leader of all maesters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 He was only a survivor. And since he's dead, not a very good one. All men must die. Even you might not last as long as Pycelle did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisForKing299AL Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I like the idea that Pycelle can even be considered a player. He's a knowledgable pawn, at best. He has no real desire to rise up and take his own place. Sin to reference the show on the books section, but theres a deleted scene from season 3 that dealt with Pycelle pretty nicely "I dont want to be the tallest or the brightest, i only want to remain in the garden"Sums it up pretty well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Donahue Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 It was said of Pycelle that he loved his office more than anything. He wanted to be, and to remain, Grand Maester of the Citadel. That job normally requires one to convince a lot of extremely smart people that you should be in charge of them, or at least of their interests. My theory is that Pycelle was highly intelligent, but not so brilliant as to overawe all the other Archmaesters with his sagacity. To reach and keep the top spot, he needed an edge. He made himself indispensible to the young and supremely capable Hand of the King, Tywin Lannister, and House Lannister ensured that he would remain secure in his beloved office. So, he wasn't necessarily a prime player, but rather a strong player who made one very good move and profited from it for 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think it's indicated in Clash that he indeed knew. Pycelle is many things but he's not an idiot. I would say he was sent to the RK because he's not only loyal but observant. I don't remember this part at all... Can you point me to the chapter to look it up? But, I don't think that such an assumption would make him an idiot. In fact, knowing who's the father of Cersei's children and knowing what Jon Arryn was reading at the time and why, it would be a very reasonable assumption IMO. On the other hand, Lysa had been "under the radar" and underestimated by most. *Just like it was reasonable to assume that the second attack against Bran was to finish him off for what he new, but instead it was for an unrelated mad and stupid reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.