Pycelle: Most underrated player?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't remember this part at all... Can you point me to the chapter to look it up?

But, I don't think that such an assumption would make him an idiot. In fact, knowing who's the father of Cersei's children and knowing what Jon Arryn was reading at the time and why, it would be a very reasonable assumption IMO. On the other hand, Lysa had been "under the radar" and underestimated by most.

*Just like it was reasonable to assume that the second attack against Bran was to finish him off for what he new, but instead it was for an unrelated mad and stupid reason.

I think, but I'm not completely sure, that it happens when Tyrion is sending him to the cells. He says something like he has been loyal and he kept the Queen's secrets. Something like that.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think, but I'm not completely sure, that it happens when Tyrion is sending him to the cells. He says something like he has been loyal and he kept the Queen's secrets. Something like that.

Thanks, I'll look it up.

But what he says, if you remember it right, implies that it's quite possible he assumed Cersei's implication in Jon Arryn's murder.

[Knight Of Winter]

Petty and highly disgusting character, willing to let the world burn if he could help the Lannisters by doing so. I genuinely find amazing how little self-respect he must have: to continually serve the family who repeatedly threatens him, humiliates him, throws him in a cell...

And he's not even competent at his job. Tyrion plays him like a fish. Everyone at court quickly sniffs out his supposedly secret allegiance (even Ned). When presented with problem of Stannis' claim, his suggestion is to let him rot on Dragonstone. Really, the only thing that he has going for him is that he's saner and more rational than AFFC Cersei, which is not much of an accomplishment.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I found the passage. It seems that Pycelle believed that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead, and he finished him for her:

(ETA, it's in ACOK, Tyrion VI)

“How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me... King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?” He knew where it ended.

The axe scratched at the apple of Pycelle’s throat and stroked the soft wobbly skin under his jaw, scraping away the last hairs. “You... were not here,” he gasped when the blade moved upward to his cheeks. “Robert... his wounds... if you had seen them, smelled them, you would have no doubt...”

“Oh, I know the boar did your work for you... but if he’d left the job half done, doubtless you would have finished it.”

“He was a wretched king... vain, drunken, lecherous... he would have set your sister aside, his own queen... please... Renly was plotting to bring the Highgarden maid to court, to entice his brother... it is the gods’ own truth...”

“And what was Lord Arryn plotting?”

“He knew,” Pycelle said. “About... about...”

“I know what he knew about,” snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

“He was sending his wife back to the Eyrie, and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone... he meant to act.”

“So you poisoned him first.”

“No.” Pycelle struggled feebly. Shagga growled and grabbed his head. The clansman’s hand was so big he could have crushed the maester’s skull like an eggshell had he squeezed.

Tyrion tsked at him. “I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn’s own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died.”

“A falsehood!”

“Shave him closer,” Tyrion suggested. “The throat again.”

The axe swept back down, rasping over the skin. A thin film of spit bubbled on Pycelle’s lips as his mouth trembled. “I tried to save Lord Arryn. I vow-”

“Careful now, Shagga, you’ve cut him.”

Shagga growled. “Dolf fathered warriors, not barbers.”

When he felt the blood trickling down his neck and onto his chest, the old man shuddered, and the last strength went out of him. He looked shrunken, both smaller and frailer than he had been when they burst in on him. “Yes,” he wimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.” The old man wept. “Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her.”

It seems that he believes Hugh of the Vale poisoned him doing Cersei's binding.

[bent branch]

I agree.

Forty years on the small council covered the last year of Aegon V, Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert, and Cersei (Joffrey, Tomman) rule. What's interesting is that the three previous Grand Maesters that counseled Aegon V died within 2 years. Granted, two of them were quite old and the other died on the way to Kings Landing before he ever got a chance to give Aegon V any counsel. But, within a year of Pycelle arriving to offer counsel to Aegon, Aegon and his eldest son were killed in a mysterious tragedy, which expedited the reign of Jaehaerys who died three years later and then Aerys. A question to be asked is, was Jaehaerys always frail or did he start becoming frail when Pycelle showed up.

It's possible that Pycelle was responsible for finishing off all the Dragons like Marwyn told Sam.

Exactly, when the term dragon is used it can mean an actual dragon or a Targaryen.

Aegon was the son of the crown Prince, and Elia's health was very fragile. I don't see odd that they could have requested for him to be there and help in the birth as a way to protect both mother and child.

Why? Pycelle's track record for taking care of Targaryen babies is abysmal. Here is the results of all of Rhaella's pregnancies:

Rhaegar, born in 259, probably not delivered by Pycelle as he was born at Summerhall.

Miscarriage in 263, under Pycelle's care

Miscarriage in 264, under Pycelle's care

Shaena, stillborn in 267, under Pycelle's care.

Daeron, born in 269, died at 6 months under Pycelle's care

Stillborn in 270, under Pycelle's care

Miscarriage in 271, under Pycelle's care

Aegon, born in 272, two months premature, died in 273, under Pycelle's care

Jaehaerys, born in 274, died in 274, under Pycelle's care

Viserys, born in 276, lived after his father took "insane" measures to protect the child's life

Daenerys, born in 284, lived, never under Pycelle's care

So of the nine pregnancies of Rhaella's that Pycelle oversaw only one child lived and that only after his father became "insanely" over protective. That is an 11% success rate. If I was looking for someone to take care of my fragile wife during her pregnancy, Pycelle is the last person I would consider. He had hardly proven himself to be an expert of "problem" pregnancies.

Frankly, I think Pycelle was murdering Rhaella's children. If there was a maester's conspiracy to bring down the Targaryens (and I think there was) it only makes sense for them to keep the total number of people in the family low. And what better way to do that then to sabotage Rhaella's pregnancies? Personally, I do not think it is a coincidence that of two of the three children of Rhaella and Aerys' to survive were not under Pycelle's care and Viserys only lived because of his father's extreme care.

Pycelle was appointed to be Grand Maester, he is not the leader of all maesters...

Yes Pycelle was appointed to be Grand Maester. However, he was appointed by his fellow maesters and by giving him that appointment, they made Pycelle the head of the Citadel.

[Lee-Sensei]

He was only a survivor. And since he's dead, not a very good one.

He lived to be 84 and survived on the Small Council for almost half a century. How many characters in this series can say that?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I have mixed feelings about pycelle but he is definitely a survivor.

To your point about varys's motive. I think that may have factored in on it. But mostly I think it was because he, along with kevin, where the only ones left to try and contain cersie. Not that pycelle was succeeding but I think it was a good move from varys's point of view. That and his knowledge in general. He was in KL a long time and knew a lot of dirt.

I wonder if varys has any plan(s) for his replacement? I wonder if his little birds fly all the way to Oldtown? Probably.

Tyrion II, Storm, Varys advises Tyrion that he told Tywin the Citadel had chosen a Tyrell to replace Pycelle after considering two other candidates. Tyrion noted that the Conclave met in Oldtown behind vlosed doors. Tyrion assumed that Varys had little birds in the Citadel. Does Varys have mute but literate orphans in the Citadel as he does in the Red Keep, or does he have an informant among the archmaesters?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think Pycelle is who he seems to be: a maester raised with the values of the Citadell, complying and pretty much adcancing them without the need of some conspiracy but just because that's what he believes is the right thing. Tywin represents his ideal of a ruler and his respect for him is genuine. He is a Tywin "fanboy", for ideological reasons.

And, he's quite competent as player, as well. Not so good as to see into Tyrion's little test, but good enough to play his role all those years and have an influence there. Poor guy had to deal with Tywin's brood though...

This.

[Wavey Sauce]

Sill no posts on some under looked players, guess there isnt too many

[Merunka is the Fury]

Pycelle was a sycophant and a coward. He is (was) an intelligent and learned man. But he's also dead. Not because he was an important "player", but because he was a lannister lap dog.

Also, iirc, he was chosen by the Maesters of the Citidel specificly because he was young. Not because of any special skills or supreme wit.

I look forward to Varys control of the whole KL stage. That's what I foresee at this point.

[eyenon15]

Moral of the story, being a Lannister lap dog keeps you alive in KL until you are 80

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, iirc, he was chosen by the Maesters of the Citidel specificly because he was young. Not because of any special skills or supreme wit.

IICR, GRRM mentioned we will find out about Pycelle's origins. If he's somehow related to the Lannisters (not necessarily as family), I can see the Citadel sending him there due to his connections.

[ForgottenKnight]

IICR, GRRM mentioned we will find out about Pycelle's origins. If he's somehow related to the Lannisters (not necessarily as family), I can see the Citadel sending him there due to his connections.

He seemed to me to be someone who always played it safe but didn't have the same amount of honor as Maesters Luwin, Cressen, or Aemon. I hope we can see some of his back story in the show. He's usually used for some comedic affect.

[Merunka is the Fury]

IICR, GRRM mentioned we will find out about Pycelle's origins. If he's somehow related to the Lannisters (not necessarily as family), I can see the Citadel sending him there due to his connections.

Was he not questioned by Tyrion in regards to his family/house name in Storm? Do you know the link yo that quote by chance?

[ViserionsFire]

IICR, GRRM mentioned we will find out about Pycelle's origins. If he's somehow related to the Lannisters (not necessarily as family), I can see the Citadel sending him there due to his connections.

But when Pycelle became a Grand Maester and elevated to council the King, the King was Aegon V. At that time Tytos was Lord of the Rock and Tywin was trying to become a Knight. The Lannister's weren't all that highly thought of before Tywin became the Lord. So, I it wasn't that Pycelle had connections that brought him to Kings Landing, it was the connections that he developed once there that kept him on the small council for forty years.

[Wavey Sauce]

Does anyone remember if he was getting really pissed at Qyburn still being around?

And how many times was it brought up or intended that he was with a prostitute? Or am I not remembering right?

Yea looking now I think he was happy just being 84 in KL and a high position with a hooker now and then haha

[Wavey Sauce]

But when Pycelle became a Grand Maester and elevated to council the King, the King was Aegon V. At that time Tytos was Lord of the Rock and Tywin was trying to become a Knight. The Lannister's weren't all that highly thought of before Tywin became the Lord. So, I it wasn't that Pycelle had connections that brought him to Kings Landing, it was the connections that he developed once there that kept him on the small council for forty years.

He was no idiot and saw that the Lannisters were going to be a big power..............or if anything that the Targs were going to fall off, so best be to show hes loyal to the rebels who are stepping in opposed to the house about to be exterminated

[Annarkie]

Exactly, when the term dragon is used it can mean an actual dragon or a Targaryen.

Why? Pycelle's track record for taking care of Targaryen babies is abysmal. Here is the results of all of Rhaella's pregnancies:

Rhaegar, born in 259, probably not delivered by Pycelle as he was born at Summerhall.

Miscarriage in 263, under Pycelle's care

Miscarriage in 264, under Pycelle's care

Shaena, stillborn in 267, under Pycelle's care.

Daeron, born in 269, died at 6 months under Pycelle's care

Stillborn in 270, under Pycelle's care

Miscarriage in 271, under Pycelle's care

Aegon, born in 272, two months premature, died in 273, under Pycelle's care

Jaehaerys, born in 274, died in 274, under Pycelle's care

Viserys, born in 276, lived after his father took "insane" measures to protect the child's life

Daenerys, born in 284, lived, never under Pycelle's care

So of the nine pregnancies of Rhaella's that Pycelle oversaw only one child lived and that only after his father became "insanely" over protective. That is an 11% success rate. If I was looking for someone to take care of my fragile wife during her pregnancy, Pycelle is the last person I would consider. He had hardly proven himself to be an expert of "problem" pregnancies.

Frankly, I think Pycelle was murdering Rhaella's children. If there was a maester's conspiracy to bring down the Targaryens (and I think there was) it only makes sense for them to keep the total number of people in the family low. And what better way to do that then to sabotage Rhaella's pregnancies? Personally, I do not think it is a coincidence that of two of the three children of Rhaella and Aerys' to survive were not under Pycelle's care and Viserys only lived because of his father's extreme care.

Yes Pycelle was appointed to be Grand Maester. However, he was appointed by his fellow maesters and by giving him that appointment, they made Pycelle the head of the Citadel.

Mind = Blown

[bdub32689]

Hes not a player but he did know how to stay alive. Im sure there is a lot more to the character then we learned but not much else. I wouldn't be surprised if he was responsible for some poisonings. He was lucky enough to grow old and his integrity went down over the years as he grew comfortable in KL with all its vices

[King in the Narrow Sea]

He did offer Cersei good advice. Put experienced, loyal men in charge, not people like Aurane Waters and the Keltleblacks.

But then, that's also common sense.