Was killing off Tywin in ASOS such a good idea for the story?

[Tiliana]

Just a simple question because it seems to me that in wake of his death, there is a lack of a cohesiveness in the antagonistc sphere of the series. Maybe it would have been better off had the five year gap gone ahead as planned (which would radically change the entire series no doubt), but now it seems that many of the stories are just aimless without him. Take Dorne for example, we spend numerous chapters there where they plan their revenge (and Quentyn travels to Dany to facilitate that), but why exactly are they doing so with Tywin dead? With his death, there is no one left who is responsible for Elia and her children's deaths. Doran who is portrayed as a wise character and a humanist, wants to drag Dorne to war and see thousands of his people die to see justice done on Cersei and Tommen? Why would he do that, and what would he get out of it if he is successful? I guess his family would be royalty, but to me that doesn't seem like something he especially cares about

And then we go to Daenerys. Would it not be economic from a story stand-point to have her invade Westeros and meet resistance in the form of Tywin instead of introducing Aegon in order to give weight to her conquest? I know Aegon was planned from when George was writing ACOK, but he seems to me as a lot of extra calories on an already big series. Other than Varys/Illyrio's motivations, he really doesn't justify his existence apart from being Dany's roadblock which again, Tywin could have done just fine. And Tywin wouldn't have felt like just an obstacle and nothing more but an actual real threat. And would have given more motivation to Tyrion for him to help Dany

And Cersei, a character who is (imo) negatively affected by having to be written as a complete idiot to facilitate the plot would be saved from that and used elsewhere

Am I alone in thinking this?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I agree with the point about Cersei having to lose half of her IQ points, and with the thing about Aegon, to a certain extent

But I think Tywin definitely had to die right then and there. His death marked the end of an era and the end of an act. And I personally don't like it when the main villain is almost invincible and lasts for ages (I'm looking at you, Voldy)

Plus, House Lannister had to suffer a heavy blow eventually, right? I mean, everything was going so damn good for them that their luck just had to run out at some point

I do share the feeling of, I don't know, aimlessness or emptyness in KL after his death. I guess GRRM had to make the Tyrells' power grab look realistic and slightly subtle (and let's be real, the Tyrells would be more than decent antagonists to Dany, so Tywin's got nothing on them in that regard), but I don't like that it had to be at the expense of Cersei's character.

[TeethGrinder]

I think the timing was right and it was well executed by the right guy. But then who knows how good it may have been with him.

He certainly could have written the fallout from his death better. Namely in Tyrion's arc. I actually quite enjoyed Cersei's progressive meltdown and although I am not convinced she was ever that smart to begin with, it was paranoia more than anything else which made her seem stupid.

I think Doran wants to destroy everything Tywin stood for, which was his legacy and the Lannister name. He wants them wiped out.

[Nihlus]

Take Dorne for example, we spend numerous chapters there where they plan their revenge (and Quentyn travels to Dany to facilitate that), but why exactly are they doing so with Tywin dead? With his death, there is no one left who is responsible for Elia and her children's deaths.

Doran who is portrayed as a wise character and a humanist, wants to drag Dorne to war and see thousands of his people die to see justice done on Cersei and Tommen? Why would he do that, and what would he get out of it if he is successful? I guess his family would be royalty, but to me that doesn't seem like something he especially cares about

He gets power. Which is what he really cares about, with Elia's death just being a convenient excuse used to drum up support for his power grab. If he truly just wanted revenge on Tywin, he would have declared for Renly or Stannis. Or just anybody but Tywin himself. Also, Doran is portrayed as anything but intelligent.

Just a simple question because it seems to me that in wake of his death, there is a lack of a cohesiveness in the antagonistc sphere of the series.

He wasn't really the main antagonist of any book except the first. Stannis was arguably the main antagonist of book 2 (an anti-hero antagonist, but an antagonist nonetheless), and in book 3 Tywin took a back seat to several other important players. The Tyrells most notably, since they hold all of the cards ever since they bailed Tywin out of his disastrous, poorly handled war. Also, Roose, Mance. and especially Littlefinger.

And then we go to Daenerys. Would it not be economic from a story stand-point to have her invade Westeros and meet resistance in the form of Tywin instead of introducing Aegon in order to give weight to her conquest? I know Aegon was planned from when George was writing ACOK, but he seems to me as a lot of extra calories on an already big series. Other than Varys/Illyrio's motivations, he really doesn't justify his existence apart from being Dany's roadblock which again, Tywin could have done just fine. And Tywin wouldn't have felt like just an obstacle and nothing more but an actual real threat. And would have given more motivation to Tyrion for him to help Dany

That's only if you think that Dany is actually going to win, or that if she does, her victory will be portrayed as a good thing. Logically she'll die before she ever gets to Westeros, and if she does get to Westeros, it will most likely be as Euron's bitch. Keep that in mind.

And Cersei, a character who is (imo) negatively affected by having to be written as a complete idiot to facilitate the plot would be saved from that and used elsewhere

Am I alone in thinking this?

How would the Faith Militant plot line and the breakdown of the Tyrell-Lannister alliance work if Tywin was alive? He was content to just let the Tyrells grab all of the power right from under his nose, mostly because he realized he couldn't do anything about it.

[Pecan]

Ultimately, as with Ned, I think we'll see that it was the right thing for the story. On a side note, I'm sure there are people at HBO that would have liked to see the Charles Dance version of Tywin stick around.

[King17]

Yes this death leads to the destruction of house lannister and the ability to let aegon take the throne

[King17]

Yes this death leads to the destruction of house lannister and the ability to let aegon take the throne

[Sans a Stark]

Yes, because the antagonism between the factions will be better without a stereotypical 'black hat' bad guy. Schisms and conflicts between characters that people empathise with more strongly will create a more powerful denoument.

[Jasta11]

Yes, of course. It sets the course for the decline of the Lannisters, and I feel that the character was kinda spent. Tywin's death was perfectly timed, unlike say Oberyn's.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The decline you notice is due more to the lack of a solid antagonist to replace Tywin after his demise, then his actual death.

I love Roose, for example, but he isn't a central antagonist to any POV character except Reek (and even there, he's actually more of a protector/savior compared to Ramsay). He'd be a great antagonist for Jon but GRRM didn't really pursue that possibility. Same with Euron - he'd be a great enemy for Daenerys but we haven't gotten there yet.

[TeethGrinder]

The decline you notice is due more to the lack of a solid antagonist to replace Tywin after his demise, then his actual death.

I love Roose, for example, but he isn't a central antagonist to any POV character except Reek (and even there, he's actually more of a protector/savior compared to Ramsay). He'd be a great antagonist for Jon but GRRM didn't really pursue that possibility. Same with Euron - he'd be a great enemy for Daenerys but we haven't gotten there yet.

He's kind of the antagonist in Asha's chapters too. I think he's solid enough and can't complain about any aspect of that arc right now to be honest.

Euron definitely should be used more and I expect him to be from now on.

[ICRYRAGE]

It has to be darkest before the light. A lot of the story is the death of people right before they could have helped the realm which makes the end game so harsh and whoever is left at the end to fight the Others even more impressive. If you take some of the most experienced leaders at the beginning of the series they are all dead with no one to take their place. In many ways that is what the story is about, these younger potential leaders and how they deal with adversity.

[khal drogon]

Yes his death signifies the fall of House lannister. Old players must die to make way for new players. The time of Lannisters is over now with Tywin. Now the game is between Tyrells, Martells and Greyjoys.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The structural problem with keeping Tywin around is that by the time he was sitting on the toilet, he'd won, and a victorious Tywin means stability. The story can't have a strong, united Westeros, because that ruins the tension.

[Errant Bard]

the five year gap [...] would radically change the entire series no doubt

It would not, seriously. You would still have the same actors alive, who would reminisce about the five years without Tywin, and start moving in a world without Tywin.

The antagonist sphere is weakened to allow the good guys to get some power without getting squashed, and to reinforce the importance of the Others in the second part. It is only a matter of time until the good guys rally everyone, even former "villains", gather in the north and go to war with the Dark Lord.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I actually mentioned this elsewhere. I believe in the AFFC/DwD thread.

I think it was a bad idea, because it removed a major player who provided readers with a solid person of significant power to hate (or maybe not). I felt that once Tywin died, the Lannisters essentially fell, and the rebellion in Westeros fell flat. I think that hurt the last two books as a result.

The Boltons and Freys are new targets for fans since SoS, but I am not sure they carry the weight that Tywin did, especially if you love the Starks or Stannis for that matter. Killing Tywin sort of killed the story in westeros, because it seems (to me anyway) that Martin did not replace Tywin with someone just as manipulative and cunning who could easily be hated. I think what made Tywin such a great villain, and I do see him as one (even if not the traditional sort), is the amount of power he held that allowed him to cause a major rift. While fans hate the Freys and Boltons, neither house has the same luster and power as the Lannisters. They could not do what they did without Tywin.

Tywin is Lord Sauron ----Bolton and Frey are Wormtongue and Saruman... Easily despised, but pretty much useless with Sauron.

I would have been fine with Tywin's death, and I was at the time, if the last two books didn't lack the nastiness Tywin brought to the table...

[Nihlus]

The decline you notice is due more to the lack of a solid antagonist to replace Tywin after his demise, then his actual death.

I love Roose, for example, but he isn't a central antagonist to any POV character except Reek (and even there, he's actually more of a protector/savior compared to Ramsay). He'd be a great antagonist for Jon but GRRM didn't really pursue that possibility. Same with Euron - he'd be a great enemy for Daenerys but we haven't gotten there yet.

Roose was arguably the main (but secret) antagonist to the Cat POV a well as the Asha and Theon POVs, if that matters. He was behind Ramsay's actions and the ultimate Stark defeat. Tywin had more or less "retired" after being humiliated repeatedly, with LF convincing the Tyrells to bail him out. Then the Tyrells slowly take effective control, since they now hold all of the cards. He didn't really do anything after that other than screw over his own side by slighting Dorne, demanding his allies commit political suicide (doing the same to himself in the process), trying to get his most competent subordinate executed, and dying. While that was happening, Roose was sabotaging the North war effort, planning the Red Wedding, executing it (personally killing Robb in the process), and seizing control of the North by ordering his bastard to start a civil war and sack Winterfell. Despite technically working for the Iron Throne, he's more or less an independent villain at this point. Ramsay is his subordinate.

He's definitely the main antagonist facing Stannis at the very end of book 3 and all of book 5, as well as a Stark antagonist in book 2 and book 3 (effectively, via Ramsay), but he'll likely be swept out relatively quickly at the beginning of book 6. Stannis isn't a POV but he's arguably a far more important character than others who are. I guess from this perspective you could also say he's the current antagonist of the Davos POV.

The Boltons and Freys are new targets for fans since SoS, but I am not sure they carry the weight that Tywin did, especially if you love the Starks or Stannis for that matter. Killing Tywin sort of killed the story in westeros, because it seems (to me anyway) that Martin did not replace Tywin with someone just as manipulative and cunning who could easily be hated. I think what made Tywin such a great villain, and I do see him as one (even if not the traditional sort), is the amount of power he held that allowed him to cause a major rift. While fans hate the Freys and Boltons, neither house has the same luster and power as the Lannisters. They could not do what they did without Tywin.

Tywin is Lord Sauron ----Bolton and Frey are Wormtongue and Saruman... Easily despised, but pretty much useless with Sauron.

The Lannisters had no real power by that point, either. Their lands were pillaged, their armies were smashed or retired, their capital was starving, they were completely surrounded by Tyrells (there's 60,000 Tyrell troops outside of KL in the aftermath of the battle vs 10,000-16,000 Lannister troops, for example), and they were about to get attacked by Euron/fAegon/possibly Dorne/kinda Stannis. Roose and Walder, if they were dishonorable enough, totally could have done what they did without Tywin. He didn't actually do anything for them. Roose turned because he saw that submitting was preferable to fighting, since the Tyrells (and Ironborn) had just entered on Tywin's side and routed Stannis, turning a complete curb-stomp into, at best, a long and bloody struggle, and at worst a curb-stomp the other way. If Walder and Roose had just decided "hey, screw Robb, let's kill him and seize control of the North", they could have done so while just sending a letter to Tywin saying "hey, we're on your side now, don't bug us" and get away with it. Which is basically what happened.

I would have been fine with Tywin's death, and I was at the time, if the last two books didn't lack the nastiness Tywin brought to the table...

True, we don't have anyone as evil as him outside of Essos.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The structural problem with keeping Tywin around is that by the time he was sitting on the toilet, he'd won, and a victorious Tywin means stability. The story can't have a strong, united Westeros, because that ruins the tension.

Perhaps break the tension? Force Tywin to react? Say Dorn invades?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Perhaps break the tension? Force Tywin to react? Say Dorn invades?

Doran loses his mind, invades, gets squashed by Tywin.

The Others attacking a weak, divided, chaotic realm is much more dramatic than the Others attacking a stable, relatively united, realm. It also means Jon Connington et al are driven into the sea.

[TallTyrion]

Tywin's death was needed to create the chaotic environment necessary to advance the plot. Tywin alive means no problems with the Iron Bank and no destruction of the Tyrell alliance. Also Euron and the Golden Company wouldn't be nearly the threat they are now. With Tywin in charge and a relatively united Kingdom, ten thousand sellswords, no matter their quality, aren't going to pose much of a threat. And that's just a few of the events that have already happened, not to mention stuff like the others attacking and Dany's arrival.