Was killing off Tywin in ASOS such a good idea for the story?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, of course. Tywin's death causes chaos in Westeros. And chaos is a laddaaaah is needed to move the plot along.

Also, it's one of those things that makes you consider your own ideas about good and bad. We all cheered at his death because he was a s.o.b. He had it coming for what he did to our favourite characters (and Tysha, and Elia and her babies). But, we now see a realm in total chaos and instability, which makes us wish he was alive, for the sake and good of Westeros. Yet, Tywin alive means a lot of atrocities like the Red Wedding of the Sack of King's Landing, even if that keeps peace and ends wars.

[Nihlus]

Well, of course. Tywin's death causes chaos in Westeros. And chaos is a laddaaaah is needed to move the plot along.

Also, it's one of those things that makes you consider your own ideas about good and bad. We all cheered at his death because he was a s.o.b. He had it coming for what he did to our favourite characters (and Tysha, and Elia and her babies). But, we now see a realm in total chaos and instability, which makes us wish he was alive, for the sake and good of Westeros. Yet, Tywin alive means a lot of atrocities like the Red Wedding of the Sack of King's Landing, even if that keeps peace and ends wars.

Tywin starts wars. Last I checked the War of the Five Kings is still a thing.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

The thing I like most about Tywin's death is we now have a story where we root/ sympathise for almost all factions in a way. Before his death it seemed to be the Lannisters against the world. You'd be fine with Tywin going down for the most part, so you were on board with anyone winning the game, as long as they fought the Lannisters. Now, however, we have the foundations for conflict between Aegon, Stannis (under the assumption that he defeats Roose), Dany, Doran, and maybe even the Vale under Sansa's leadership or the North turning on Stannis for Rickon/ Jon.

I didn't like Tywin, but I do like all of these factions, and I think positioning them to fight each other is very good writing. After all, who are we to root for in this scenario? In a war where you like multiple sides, you are guaranteed to experience internal conflict as a reader. What if Dany leads an army against Dorne? What if Stannis marches towards the vale and Sansa? I like all of these characters, I don't want them to die at each other's hand!

But if you must have villains, look to the emergence of Euron, to the mechanisms of Littlefinger or perhaps behind the smiling faces of the Tyrells. Truly, there are still plenty of factions who are simply out for power. Tywin's death just opens the gate for them.

[Kaibaman]

Tywin's death was needed to create the chaotic environment necessary to advance the plot. Tywin alive means no problems with the Iron Bank and no destruction of the Tyrell alliance. Also Euron and the Golden Company wouldn't be nearly the threat they are now. With Tywin in charge and a relatively united Kingdom, ten thousand sellswords, no matter their quality, aren't going to pose much of a threat. And that's just a few of the events that have already happened, not to mention stuff like the others attacking and Dany's arrival.

I suppose his death did plunge the realm into even more chaos than he created. But keep in mind that even with all of Tywin's abilities, the realm still wasn't in good shape and there were a multitude of problems that had to be resolved. Sure things wouldn't have escalated so quickly but the fact is a lot of the issues you pointed out would have still existed. For example, Stannis would have still gone to the North and started an uprising against the Boltons, the Ironborn would still attack the Reach, the Riverlands would still be in a state of unrest with the Blackfish holding out in Riverrun and Tytos Blackwoods refusing to surrender, the Iron Throne would have still been in tremendous debt with the Iron Bank and Dany and Aegon would still be preparing themselves for an invasion. Tywin's a very good administrator but he's not a magician. I think like Kevan, he would have felt way over his head with so much stuff to deal with.

[Lord Rupert Connington]

I think that it had to happen, unfortunately. So long as Tywin lived, this would ensure the loyalty of Westeros to the Lannisters. With him dead, this has opened the door for other houses to be more flexible in choosing their loyalties, i.e, making the plot more exciting (the tense political situation in the Vale, Aegon's landing and the Faith Militant uprising are the best examples, I think).

[Sword of the Morgan]

Tywin was essentially the king, and killing him changed a lot regarding the power structure in Westeros. It was a total game-changer that will precipitate the endgame of the story.

[Dolorous22]

Tywin's death made the story a hell of a lot more interesting for me. It unleashed Cersei and Jaime to behave however they want. Put the Freys and the Boltons back on a knife edge. Left Westeros without a competent ruler. Tywin's death opened the whole story again. Plus, I love a Dwarf with 'daddy' issues.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Roose was arguably the main (but secret) antagonist to the Cat POV a well as the Asha and Theon POVs, if that matters. He was behind Ramsay's actions and the ultimate Stark defeat. Tywin had more or less "retired" after being humiliated repeatedly, with LF convincing the Tyrells to bail him out. Then the Tyrells slowly take effective control, since they now hold all of the cards. He didn't really do anything after that other than screw over his own side by slighting Dorne, demanding his allies commit political suicide (doing the same to himself in the process), trying to get his most competent subordinate executed, and dying. While that was happening, Roose was sabotaging the North war effort, planning the Red Wedding, executing it (personally killing Robb in the process), and seizing control of the North by ordering his bastard to start a civil war and sack Winterfell. Despite technically working for the Iron Throne, he's more or less an independent villain at this point. Ramsay is his subordinate.

He's definitely the main antagonist facing Stannis at the very end of book 3 and all of book 5, as well as a Stark antagonist in book 2 and book 3 (effectively, via Ramsay), but he'll likely be swept out relatively quickly at the beginning of book 6. Stannis isn't a POV but he's arguably a far more important character than others who are. I guess from this perspective you could also say he's the current antagonist of the Davos POV.

The Lannisters had no real power by that point, either. Their lands were pillaged, their armies were smashed or retired, their capital was starving, they were completely surrounded by Tyrells (there's 60,000 Tyrell troops outside of KL in the aftermath of the battle vs 10,000-16,000 Lannister troops, for example), and they were about to get attacked by Euron/fAegon/possibly Dorne/kinda Stannis. Roose and Walder, if they were dishonorable enough, totally could have done what they did without Tywin. He didn't actually do anything for them. Roose turned because he saw that submitting was preferable to fighting, since the Tyrells (and Ironborn) had just entered on Tywin's side and routed Stannis, turning a complete curb-stomp into, at best, a long and bloody struggle, and at worst a curb-stomp the other way. If Walder and Roose had just decided "hey, screw Robb, let's kill him and seize control of the North", they could have done so while just sending a letter to Tywin saying "hey, we're on your side now, don't bug us" and get away with it. Which is basically what happened.

True, we don't have anyone as evil as him outside of Essos.

Oh, is this another "Tywin was an incompetent idiot" screed? I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Westeros on that matter, thank you very much

Tywin starts wars. Last I checked the War of the Five Kings is still a thing.

So the war wouldn't have happened without Tywin? Stannis and Renly and Ned would have just let the Lannisters be? You're going out of your way to paint him in the worst possible light

[The Wolves]

Tywin was a very evil monster whoes death was the best thing that happened to the realm.

People act like without Tywin there would have been no stability when Westeros have survived thousands of years without that evil piece of shit.

The only people who will suffer without Tywin is the Lannisters and that's not a bad thing. The story is also better without him.

[BalerionTheCat]

Tywin death was necessary to unleash all the chaos we have. Cersei errors and madness, like arming the Faith, naming incompetent counselors, estranging the Tyrells ...

House Lannister is still there and Doran could still have his vengeance (if it is GRRM intent). His House was all Tywin was fighting for. And I would believe it will be utterly destroyed in the end.

(f)Aegon maybe here only to replace Tywin as an adversary when (if) Daenerys will return to Westeros. But maybe for more. I will wait GRRM future books to decide.

Overall, I think Tywin death was timely.

[Nihlus]

Oh, is this another "Tywin was an incompetent idiot" screed? I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Westeros on that matter, thank you very much

Sure, take the words of Tywin's PR machine, rather than relying on common sense and information that we have while the characters don't. 'Cause, apparently, spiting people you need to ally with, starting wars against factions way stronger than you, turning your most competent subordinate against you, leaving no viable heirs, and leaving yourself powerless compared to your 'allies" is great statesmanship.

Again, by the end of ACOK, he was no longer the main antagonist. Mace, Roose, and even Mance were arguably more prominent in that role, not to mention Littlefinger. In the entirety of ASOS, he didn't do anything besides give Boltons and Freys approval for a massacre entirely planned and executed by them, take all the credit for Mace and Garlan's victory (where he played a minor role), get slighted repeatedly by the Tyrells, slight the Martells, try to get Tyrion executed, generally try not to piss off the Tyrells that currently hold all of the cards (did he finally learn?), and get killed by Tyrion for being such a dick. I find it fitting for Roose, Petyr, and Mace that, even though they had clearly usurped Tywin's role as the main antagonists even before his death, no one pays attention to them even out of universe, focusing entirely on Tywin and giving him credit for their actions. It fits their MOs.

So the war wouldn't have happened without Tywin? Stannis and Renly and Ned would have just let the Lannisters be? You're going out of your way to paint him in the worst possible light

Most likely. Stannis might have done something, and so might Renly, but their actions didn't start the war. I doubt that the North, Riverlands, and Iron Islands would have. They'd just see the Baratheons having a succession crisis, and have no love for Stannis or Renly. Heck, I'm not even sure if the Tyrells would be willing to take that risk without confirmation that the Westerlands' resources would be tied up first. The invasion of one kingdom by another is what actually started the war. The Riverlands-North-Iron Islands-Westerlands fiasco was all on him, and he didn't know about the incest, so he can't use that as an excuse for his overly aggressive actions. Anyway, painting Tywin in the worst possible light isn't really necessary when he's already explicitly a petty mass murdering child rapist.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sure, take the words of Tywin's PR machine, rather than relying on common sense and information that we have while the characters don't. 'Cause, apparently, spiting people you need to ally with, starting wars against factions way stronger than you, turning your most competent subordinate against you, leaving no viable heirs, and leaving yourself powerless compared to your 'allies" is great statesmanship.

Is Brynden Tully part of Tywin's PR machine? Is Ned Stark? Are Lords Bolton and Glover? Is Balon Greyjoy? Is Catelyn? Do I really need to make a list of all the people in Westeros who fear and respect Tywin Lannister? Am I supposed to believe you know better than them and the vast majority of people who analyze these books?

How was he powerless compared to the Tyrells? He was still Hand, and was dictating policy

Most likely. Stannis might have done something, and so might Renly, but their actions didn't start the war. I doubt that the North, Riverlands, and Iron Islands would have. They'd just see the Baratheons having a succession crisis, and have no love for Stannis or Renly. Heck, I'm not even sure if the Tyrells would be willing to take that risk without confirmation that the Westerlands' resources would be tied up first. The invasion of one kingdom by another is what actually started the war. The Riverlands-North-Iron Islands-Westerlands fiasco was all on him, and he didn't know about the incest, so he can't use that as an excuse for his overly aggressive actions. Anyway, painting Tywin in the worst possible light isn't really necessary when he's already explicitly a petty mass murdering child rapist.

This is complete nonsense. Stannis intended to kill Cersei and her children no matter what Tywin did, and Ned tried to launch a coup against them in King's Landing. I suppose Tywin should have just sat at Casterly Rock and let that happen? He had no choice but to strike fast and hard. Tywin didn't start a war, Ned, Cersei/Jaime, and Littlefinger did. The Lannister army didn't actually invade the Riverlands until after Robert had died and Ned attempted his coup

What Iron Islands fiasco? They attacked his enemies, explicitly because Balon feared Tywin

[Nihlus]

Is Brynden Tully part of Tywin's PR machine? Is Ned Stark? Are Lords Bolton and Glover? Is Balon Greyjoy? Is Catelyn? Do I really need to make a list of all the people in Westeros who fear and respect Tywin Lannister? Am I supposed to believe you know better than them and the vast majority of people who analyze these books?

Yes, they all are fooled by the PR machine. We can even see this happening in the books themselves. Everyone goes on about how formidable Tywin is for supposedly defeating Stannis, and how anyone who can beat Stannis is basically unstoppable. In actuality, he was marching off to suicide, being outnumbered and horribly, horribly outclassed by Stannis if he just arrived there himself with his own army, as was his original plan. Tywin was nothing to Stannis. ~15,000 [being generous] mixed troops under Tywin's leadership are fodder compared to ~21,000 knights under Stannis's leadership. Mace is the one who defeated Stannis. Tywin was only bailed out by the Tyrells, who then proceeded to do almost all of the work.

"The in-universe characters [including idiots like Balon] think it so it must be true, regardless of what common sense or the information they don't know says" is a very weak argument.

How was he powerless compared to the Tyrells? He was still Hand, and was dictating policy

He can go ahead and be the Hand, it makes no difference. He's entirely dependent on the Tyrells due to them feeding the Crownlands, being undamaged by the war (unlike Tywin "I got my armies destroyed and my homelands pillaged" Lannister), and having 60,000 men parked right outside the capital, where Tywin and every other major Lannister figure is. Again, re-reading ASOS and the last bits of ACOK, it's surprising how irrelevant Tywin really is to the plot. Roose is seizing control of the North, the Tyrells are winning several major battles while gaining more and more power, Mance is marching on the Wall with the intent to ravage the lightly defended North, Littlefinger is still playing everybody, and Tywin is... trying to get his most competent subordinate executed, getting rejected for marriage proposals by the Tyrells, taking credit for a battle he only had a minor part in, slighting people whose help he needs, saying "go ahead" to Roose and Lothar's plan, and dying.

This is complete nonsense. Stannis intended to kill Cersei and her children no matter what Tywin did,

If that was the case, he would have done it, rather than waiting. He knew he couldn't just assault King's Landing while the kingdom was unified.

and Ned tried to launch a coup against them in King's Landing.

Which has little to do with the war, just another effect of the incest. Even if Stannis's investigation and Ned's coup weren't factors at all, a war still would have broken out due to Tywin being a petty and short-sighted jackass.

I suppose Tywin should have just sat at Casterly Rock and let that happen? He had no choice but to strike fast and hard.

Yes. Because trying to invade the Riverlands while King Bob is still alive, and ESPECIALLY when he's dead, is complete suicide. The best course of action would have been to take the Tyrion issue to Bob and get it resolved peacefully, earning a PR victory in the process. But no no no, Tywin can't have that, he has to start murdering entire towns because fuck you Bob. Predictably, the North and Riverlands then combined their strengths and started kicking his ass. If not for Littlefinger convincing the Tyrells to come to his aid (i.e. start taking over), and several very improbably coincidences on top of that, he would have been completely screwed.

Tywin didn't start a war, Ned, Cersei/Jaime, and Littlefinger did.

I still find it hilarious that you're blaming NED for starting the war at the same time that Tywin was launching an invasion of another kingdom. Like, wow.

The Lannister army didn't actually invade the Riverlands until after Robert had died and Ned attempted his coup

The raiders had already entered the Riverlands and burned several towns, and Tywin was calling all of his banners and building up a 35,000-man army on the border. That's an invasion. The amount of men he gathered also clearly indicates he was planning to go to war long before he heard about any coup.

What Iron Islands fiasco? They attacked his enemies, explicitly because Balon feared Tywin

No, he attacked because he hated the North and saw an opportunity with 20,000 Northmen and all of the major leaders down south. No one had any reason to fear Tywin at this point, as he was losing the war and losing badly.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I can tell we're just going to go round and round on this, but your analysis is bad and you should feel bad.

[Nihlus]

I can tell we're just going to go round and round on this, but your analysis is bad and you should feel bad.

Amazing rebuttal there.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

While Tywin did not personaly posses the military capability to defend his position after stannis defeat, he did however posses enough peronal respect to hold the other factions in line.

Cersei do not have the gravitas nor the insight to do the same. So Tywins death was necessary to further the conflict and chaos in westeros, granted conflict and slight chaos may still have happened even with Tywin alive but not nearly as close to the level of clusterfuck we get now.

[Ramsay Gimp]

While Tywin did not personaly posses the military capability to defend his position after stannis defeat, he did however posses enough peronal respect to hold the other factions in line.

He was seriously weakened in terms of raw military strength, but 20,000+ men are nothing to shake a stick at. Especially when their loyalty is guaranteed. The only real threat at the time of his death was the Reach, and he was making moves to strengthen that alliance

[Kittykatknits]

.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

He was seriously weakened in terms of raw military strength, but 20,000+ men are nothing to shake a stick at. Especially when their loyalty is guaranteed. The only real threat at the time of his death was the Reach, and he was making moves to strengthen that alliance

Excactly. He knew that and as you say did do everything to hold on to the alliance. The point I am getting at is that Tywin relied on a lot of people to remain calm and in line, as he himself could not have enforced stability without the Tyrells. And that he knew that.

[Nihlus]

He was seriously weakened in terms of raw military strength, but 20,000+ men are nothing to shake a stick at. Especially when their loyalty is guaranteed. The only real threat at the time of his death was the Reach, and he was making moves to strengthen that alliance

20,000+? Try <15,000. That already is extremely generous, since we're assuming that after two years in enemy territory, tons of skirmishing, and three major battles, one of which was a bad defeat, Tywin lost a smaller percentage of his army than Robb did after spending most of his time in friendly territory, getting nothing but crushing victories, and fighting only three incredibly one-sided major battles. Meanwhile, the Tyrells were sitting outside King's Landing with ~60,000 men and tens of thousands more still in reserve.