ok if R+L=J then what about Ned cheating

[matchesmcfly]

Pretty sure Ned and ashara were in love and Ned got her pregnant. But Brandon had to go fuck it up with his leeroy jenkins impersonation. That's why it's a touchy subject for him when cat asks him About her.

[LogicalLeopard]

The reason she did all that to Jon was because she thought he was a child from Ned and another Woman so learning the truth would have put a end to that long ago. maybe she would not start tucking him in at night but surely she would not of been so hateful toward him as befor. And the reason she didn't want ned to stay in Winterfell was because she thought it would cause a big thing between Him and Robert and cause alot of trouble. If Somo e didn't know better and read what u just said they would think Catlin hated Ned and kicked him out of his own house to get rid of him. It's all pretty simple really if you have somone your completely in love and devoted to and share 5 children with its a no brainer your going to come clean about the situation years later when things have cooled down and you can ease your wife's mind about the single thing hurting her. That's in the real world this is fantasy and Martin u sally does a awsome job of explaining things he just dropped the ball this time. I mean Ned sees how Jon is treated do u thing he enjoys watching Jon having his feelings hurt day in and day out? If for no other reason but to have her ease up on a young boy he would tell her the truth

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear aboutthe Winterfell incident. What I was referring to is when Catelyn doesn't want Jon to stay with her at Winterfell, knowing full well that Ned can't take him to Kings Landing. So she's essentially kicking him out. I believe the passage said that Ned looked extremely hurt, which is understandable. Luwin brings up the Nights Watch, and there he goes.

But I ask again, if you're the kind of person who mistreated an innocent child who you think is your husband's bastard, how are you going to treat a child that everyone still THINKS is your husband's bastard? Actually, I hear that Chapter 6 of GOT where the scene about Jon having to leave Winterfell has a passage about Catelyn not minding that Ned has bastards, he could have many if he wanted to. The problem was bringing one home, and calling him "son" in front of lords. So if that's true, whether or not she knew Jon wasn't his son wouldn't matter. It was him being at Winterfell and treated like a son.

[TimJames]

Pretty sure Ned and ashara were in love and Ned got her pregnant. But Brandon had to go fuck it up with his leeroy jenkins impersonation. That's why it's a touchy subject for him when cat asks him About her.

Would it have been better if Brandon instead waited sixteen years, found a reason to legally fight Rhaegar in a duel, and died poisoning him?

[matchesmcfly]

Would it have been better if Brandon instead waited sixteen years, found a reason to legally fight Rhaegar in a duel, and died poisoning him?

why is that the alternative?

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear aboutthe Winterfell incident. What I was referring to is when Catelyn doesn't want Jon to stay with her at Winterfell, knowing full well that Ned can't take him to Kings Landing. So she's essentially kicking him out. I believe the passage said that Ned looked extremely hurt, which is understandable. Luwin brings up the Nights Watch, and there he goes.

But I ask again, if you're the kind of person who mistreated an innocent child who you think is your husband's bastard, how are you going to treat a child that everyone still THINKS is your husband's bastard? Actually, I hear that Chapter 6 of GOT where the scene about Jon having to leave Winterfell has a passage about Catelyn not minding that Ned has bastards, he could have many if he wanted to. The problem was bringing one home, and calling him "son" in front of lords. So if that's true, whether or not she knew Jon wasn't his son wouldn't matter. It was him being at Winterfell and treated like a son.

So your argument is Cat Stark is evil and would of killed Jon Snow? Even tho she is clearly at good person who feels bad herself about how she treated Jon

[Migalhone]

He needed a backstory to help sell "this is my bastard." Wylla is in on the deception, and he probably brought her to court to show Robert or at least told him all about her.

And if you don't believe that, just look to Wylla Mandery: "I know about the promise" then look back to Lyanna: "Promise me, Ned."

The promise that Wylla Manderly referes to is the Manderlys swearing an oath of fealty to the Starks of Winterfell, for sheltering them when they were outcasts and friendless. Has nothing to do with "Promise me Ned".

[J. Stargaryen]

He needed a backstory to help sell "this is my bastard." Wylla is in on the deception, and he probably brought her to court to show Robert or at least told him all about her.

And if you don't believe that, just look to Wylla Mandery: "I know about the promise" then look back to Lyanna: "Promise me, Ned."

Exactly. And right before Wylla proclaims that she knows about the promise her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

The promise that Wylla Manderly referes to is the Manderlys swearing an oath of fealty to the Starks of Winterfell, for sheltering them when they were outcasts and friendless. Has nothing to do with "Promise me Ned".

It's a hint to the readers. You have a girl named Wylla professing loyalty to the Starks and saying she knows about the promise. And see above about the Jon Snow-related "You know nothing" quote. It's absolutely connected to Promise me, Ned.

[TimJames]

why is that the alternative?

I was referencing the path of revenge Oberyn Martell took when his sister Elia was raped.

[Migalhone]

Exactly. And right before Wylla proclaims that she knows about the promise her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

It's a hint to the readers. You have a girl named Wylla professing loyalty to the Starks and saying she knows about the promise. And see above about the Jon Snow-related "You know nothing" quote. It's absolutely connected to Promise me, Ned.

That went completely over my head, thanks for pointing it out :)

[J. Stargaryen]

That went completely over my head, thanks for pointing it out :)

You're welcome. :cheers:

[TimJames]

Exactly. And right before Wylla proclaims that she knows about the promise her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

It's a hint to the readers. You have a girl named Wylla professing loyalty to the Starks and saying she knows about the promise. And see above about the Jon Snow-related "You know nothing" quote. It's absolutely connected to Promise me, Ned.

I hope your not suggesting that Ygritte knew who Jon's real parents were: that's just not possible.

[J. Stargaryen]

I hope your not suggesting that Ygritte knew who Jon's real parents were: that's just not possible.

I'm suggesting that Wylla the wet nurse knows about Promise me, Ned. In other words, she almost surely knows about Jon's true parentage.

Did you mention Ygritte because of the "You know nothing" quote? If so, the point is that it is something that is often said to Jon Snow, so it helps us identify this passage from ADwD, Davos III as relating to Jon Snow. At least when combined with the inclusion of a girl named Wylla saying she knows about "the promise" which proclaiming Stark loyalty. Promise me, Ned deals with a secret. And for Wylla the wet nurse to keep this secret she was being loyal to Ned of House Stark.

Obviously Ygritte has no clue who Jon's real parents are. I think the whole "You know nothing, Jon Snow" business is an author-to-reader nudge about the character, though. He doesn't even know who he really is. He might even have a different name, which he doesn't know.

Hey Jon Snow, you don't know who your mother is, or your real father, or your real name. You know nothing.

[Pod The Impaler]

Really? They met before? I thought Ned married Catelyn, left to fight for Robert and then came back with baby Jon. Also I thought that Jon is supposed to be younger than Robb which would mean that he was concieved after Ned's wedding. But surely Nen can just say that he is younger to fit the cheating story better.

Yup. This was in fact discussed in-story.

Arya is upset at hearing Ned may have fallen in love with Ashara Dayne, but Harwin explains to her this was at Harrenhal, before Arya's father and mother were betrothed / married.

Pretty sure Ned and ashara were in love and Ned got her pregnant. But Brandon had to go fuck it up with his leeroy jenkins impersonation. That's why it's a touchy subject for him when cat asks him About her.

Yup.

Brother dead, father dead, sister dead.

First love dies after having a stillborn child (of his), and throws herself off a tower when she finds out Ned had to kill her brother, but also that he is now married to Catelyn Tully and has a child on the way by her.

It should not surprise anyone that Ned is very touchy about this subject.

[LogicalLeopard]

So your argument is Cat Stark is evil and would of killed Jon Snow? Even tho she is clearly at good person who feels bad herself about how she treated Jon

No, my argument is that if Ned tells Cat who Jon really is, it does not change the conditions in which Cat took out her frustrations on Jon. Cat hated Jon because Ned paraded him around Winterfell and treated him like he was a legitimate son, even though he was a bastard. The same thing would be true, even if she knew the truth- Ned would still treat him like a son even though everyone else knew him to be a bastard.

I'm not going to get into a huge discussion of whether or not Cat is essentially good or bad, but I will say this: Anyone who takes ANYTHING out on a child has a problem. Seriously. It wasn't even like Jon came to Winterfell at 14, he was raised there. Its easy to dislike a teenager, but hard not to like a baby. A two year old. A five year old. A seven year old. I mean, how does a mother bring herself to hate a KID? One that is not obnoxious? I mean, really think about that.

So, because of that, who knows what Cat would have done with that secret? I'm not saying she'd just rat him out, but she might do something to try to get him away from Winterfell while "helping" him at the same time, like inquiring about him being protected out of Westeros. Like finding a loyalist willing to take him out of the country like Willem Darryl dis Dani and Viserys. And telling the wrong people could kill him.

[Mikkel]

What part of the vow did he supposedly break? It says that the Night's Watchmen aren't allowed to father children. It doesn't say anything about having sex.

It's pretty obvious that the spirit of that vow is to not have sex (why else is Jon agonizing so much about it?), anything else is just lawyering. Same goes to those who think you're "honorably out" by dying and then coming back to life (as if something as mundane as a vow matters in that case!).

[NorthGirl]

So your argument is Cat Stark is evil and would of killed Jon Snow? Even tho she is clearly at good person who feels bad herself about how she treated Jon

Cat doesn't have to be evil to protect her kids from what she identified as a danger.

Yup. This was in fact discussed in-story.

Arya is upset at hearing Ned may have fallen in love with Ashara Dayne, but Harwin explains to her this was at Harrenhal, before Arya's father and mother were betrothed / married.

Yup.

Brother dead, father dead, sister dead.

First love dies after having a stillborn child (of his), and throws herself off a tower when she finds out Ned had to kill her brother, but also that he is now married to Catelyn Tully and has a child on the way by her.

It should not surprise anyone that Ned is very touchy about this subject.

My surprise comes from him not being touchy enough. Shouldn't there be hurt or guilt when Cersei throws that in his face? Why does he never think about Ashara when he thinks about Lyanna, secrets and the promise more than he does about anything else. Are we meant to believe that Ned has simply moved on and never thinks again about the woman he loved, their dead child together and her suicide caused by him? Does that fit with your idea of Ned?

Also what makes you so sure Ashara was with Ned and not Brandon. Isn't it weird that Barristan thinks about Ashara being "dishonoured" by that Stark boy but shows no conflicting emotion about the fact that the "Honourable Ned Stark" hit it and quit it? Because Ned has such a pristine reputation any misgivings (real or imagined) would be amplified. He should be thinking something along the lines of "I can't believe Ned Stark could do something like that" or "he fooled us all". Why does he try to convince Dany that Ned was in fact honourable if he believes Ned shamed the women he was in love with? Like I said, I wouldn't care if it were true but saying it is definitely true when we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet is hasty and it kind of dead ends the conversation.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No, my argument is that if Ned tells Cat who Jon really is, it does not change the conditions in which Cat took out her frustrations on Jon. Cat hated Jon because Ned paraded him around Winterfell and treated him like he was a legitimate son, even though he was a bastard. The same thing would be true, even if she knew the truth- Ned would still treat him like a son even though everyone else knew him to be a bastard.

I'm not going to get into a huge discussion of whether or not Cat is essentially good or bad, but I will say this: Anyone who takes ANYTHING out on a child has a problem. Seriously. It wasn't even like Jon came to Winterfell at 14, he was raised there. Its easy to dislike a teenager, but hard not to like a baby. A two year old. A five year old. A seven year old. I mean, how does a mother bring herself to hate a KID? One that is not obnoxious? I mean, really think about that.

So, because of that, who knows what Cat would have done with that secret? I'm not saying she'd just rat him out, but she might do something to try to get him away from Winterfell while "helping" him at the same time, like inquiring about him being protected out of Westeros. Like finding a loyalist willing to take him out of the country like Willem Darryl dis Dani and Viserys. And telling the wrong people could kill him.

To elaborate a bit -- it is not at all a question of Cat being evil or not evil. She is a character intended to be human -- with human weaknesses. Ned believes that the secret is too dangerous for Cat to know the truth. And Ned fears that Cat might use the information to protect her own children -- which again is basically a normal human weakness, to value one's own children's lives over the lives of others. But under this theory, Ned made a promise to his sister, and telling the secret to Cat serves no beneficial purpose other than to put Cat and Jon at increased risk.

Also keep in mind that assuming RLJ to be true -- the author needs to have an excuse for Cat not to know the truth. The story does not really work if Cat knows the truth. So Cat no knowing the truth of RLJ is neither evidence for or against the theory because if RLJ is an accurate theory (as I believe it is), GRRM simply needs for Cat not to know. So this lack of knowledge simply cannot serve as evidence against the theory.

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

Everyone is entitled to there opinion but I think it is a crazy assumption to think Ned feared Cat would harm Jon. I totally agree with u guys that it was a totally legit fear to have at first when he first shows up with Jon but somwhere in the 15 years with somone probably around child number 2 or 3 being born you would have enough trust to go ahead and come clean. First off yes Cat was mean to Jon MEAN!! She was not beat g him or making him go without food or water. JON had a really good upbringing compared to other bastards. He was pretty much treated as high born everywhere except in her presence and received all the teaching and training to go with it. Had Cat been the type who was looking for a reason to kill him I doubt t she would have been the type to let him have a upbringing that would later help if he was to threaten her kids. Would u want a well trained well schooled person comi g after your children or a retard? Also I think it is ridiculous to think she would do somthing g like that behind Ned's back anyway. The part about her praying for Jon when he was sick was that in the book or show only?. Either way I think it is crazy to think he would have turned on his Family and only friends he has ever known just because of finding out who his parents are.

[The hairy bear]

It is a crazy assumption indeed.

Some people don't seem to understand that according to Westerosi social norms of conduct, Catelyn was being insulted by Jon's presence and that's not just her perception. And when she stated that Jon could not stay at Winterfell, she wasn't arguing that he should be thrown out at the street to starve. She was suggesting to send him as a guest of honor to some bannermen's castle where he would be surrounded with luxury.

[The Wolves]

It is a crazy assumption indeed.

Some people don't seem to understand that according to Westerosi social norms of conduct, Catelyn was being insulted by Jon's presence and that's not just her perception. And when she stated that Jon could not stay at Winterfell, she wasn't arguing that he should be thrown out at the street to starve. She was suggesting to send him as a guest of honor to some bannermen's castle where he would be surrounded with luxury.

To the bolded no she wasn't.

She didn't care where Jon went as long as it was away from Winterfell she would have probably freaked out if Jon was to foster somewhere else thinking he would have ties to threaten her children's claim on Winterfell.