Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance #2

[lady narcissa]

Continued discussion of Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance novels since the last thread reached capacity.

Since it got asked several times in the previous thread...

Eh, is Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance really the same genre?

No they are not. But...

They are close enough, with plenty of overlap. And given the tendency to push works towards a PR label simply because author or protagonist are female it does seem to make sense to explicitly include the romance here.

I think of them as separate genres. To me Urban Fantasy is a book that could contain a relationship but is ultimately more about the world building. And Paranormal Romance could have world building but is ultimately more about the relationship.

But they overlap to the extent because they both can contain things like supernatural characters and magic. And with some books its a very close call as to which genre they fall in. So they frequently get shelved together in bookstores because of this blurring and the idea that books with vampires and werewolves should be shelved together. And I suppose that is why there is this combined thread here as well. I think there was a separate Urban Fantasy thread at one point but as books some people might think of as Paranormal Romance or Young Adult or Mystery or Fantasy kept coming up the thread evolved into this one.

Hence this thread.

FYI - Ilona Andrews "Burn For Me" which I have not read yet but has gotten a lot of discussion in the previous thread has been on sale for the past few days at amazon. It was 99 cents but has now gone up to $1.40 which is still a good deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Burn-Me-Hidden-Legacy-Novel-ebook/dp/B00I7V11WU/ref=la_B001RXSCKY_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426956584&sr=1-4

[lady narcissa]

And continuing with the discussion in the previous thread…

There was a literature conference a few years ago whose theme was monstrous women in fantasy literature. Laini Taylor was the keynote speaker and one of the special guests. Urban Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, and YA novels were very much discussed. Because of my day job and being forced to be analytical and academic about other subjects most of the time when it comes to non work reading, I prefer to just sit back and enjoy what I’m reading without too much thought about it as I’m reading it. But I do enjoy reading/hearing other people’s thoughts on it which is why I enjoy going to literature conferences and hearing the author’s and other people’s thoughts on the books. Some authors intend such things, others do not.

I just finished “House Immortal” by Devon Monk. I had not read anything by her before but my co-worker enjoyed it and until now she had not steered me wrong. I really disliked it because of the execution and because it was very much a part 1 ending with very little resolution and just as the main action was about to begin. But it did have some interesting elements to it including a group of monstrous people who had been stitched into the bodies of others and become immortal. I’d categorize it as borderline Urban Fantasy/Paranormal Romance. There is the beginnings of a romance in the first book but I’m guessing it will build it subsequent books. Despite starting on a farm it moves to Chicago and other cities. There are some interesting elements to the world building but they are only window dressing and ultimately it seems to be more about the people and the relationships and very little to do with the cities.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, the first article I ran into that dealt with feminist media theory (Crom Dubh, I am humbled that you think I am a student of literature, but I am but a laywoman. My education is all science/math/IT ) included a section on the feminine linked to the monstrous, elaborating on this theme by giving examples from several horror movies where the female character and the monster share a bond based in their Otherness. To abbreviate a long article in half a sentence.

I'm not saying it does, but it does create a rather hypocritical worldview on their part. One where men are ok to be told they cannot, or are not meant to be something, yet they fight for the ability for females to be all for everyone.

Seems a little skewed. Like I said, replace that text with a male point of view, and put it down as coming from me, and that way would have lead to a warning point and a report.

I'm uncertain where anyone has said men are told they cannot be something. Are we talking real life or book characters here? It seem unclear what you are referring to? Perhaps a bit of both?

I also think it's silly to assign things to a work when an author really only meant the protagonist to be a kick ass female werewolf/vampire/zombie. It smacks of desperation, and is a silly exercise in pretension.

Ah. But the author is dead. Did Strindberg mean to be analysed by thousands of students every year? What about Hemingway? Did he write so that hundreds of hunders of scholars can have something to do?

No, not really. But that has happened anyway. Once the writer is done and publishes it, it is out of his or her hands. Gone. And the interpretation is up to the reader, always. While I think giving some clarification when asked is acceptable, anything more is just not going to happen. Hence it does not matter what the writer originally meant. Case in point: Bakker claims to write this feminist epic, yet it is one of the least feminist publications I have read. Potentially unintentional, too.

On a book reading note: finished Paladin of Souls and it was a wonderful read. Perhaps not as aweinspiring as Curse of Chalion, but certainly faster paced and Ista is more fun and more sarcastic than poor lovable Lupe dy Cazaril. It is potentially the most...hopeful novel I have ever read. Since it's Bujold not in Vorkosigan mode, it is far more bittersweet than for it to be simply wrapped up, but still so very hopeful. Plus Bujold's constant riffing on the Kiss of Life and the Snow White myth were pretty funny and entertaining.

There is also something special about a saint who goes about invoking her God by cursing his name.

Realised the new Bec McMaster gothic steampunk novel was out so I am ALL OVER THAT LIKE A BAD RASH!!

[emberling]

On Chalion: I found that Curse was a most enjoyable book but Cazaril was pretty boring for me as a character. Paladin I didn't connect with, but thought that from a more universal/"objective" pov it was the best book of the three. The heroine/love interest in the third book spoke to me between the lines somewhat like we've been discussing, but spent way too much time offscreen.

Sadly, those books aren't actually urban fantasy so maybe this isn't the place to discuss them :P

This is probably also not the place for MRA-flavored griping about how feminists dare to read books - and even talk about them! - without leaving their feminism at the door.

I also think it's silly to assign things to a work when an author really only meant the protagonist to be a kick ass female werewolf/vampire/zombie. It smacks of desperation, and is a silly exercise in pretension.

And why the fuck wouldn't I be desperate? Why shouldn't I? You can't throw a stick in a bookstore without hitting sixteen stories about people just like you, complete with black-and-white fauxjectivity. I'm sure you don't think that matters; a good book is a good book and a bad book is a bad book, right? Based on criteria made by more of those people just like you. Whatever.

and to end on a lighter note, omg laini taylor talking about monstrous women sounds amazeballs

[peterbound]

On Chalion: I found that Curse was a most enjoyable book but Cazaril was pretty boring for me as a character. Paladin I didn't connect with, but thought that from a more universal/"objective" pov it was the best book of the three. The heroine/love interest in the third book spoke to me between the lines somewhat like we've been discussing, but spent way too much time offscreen.

Sadly, those books aren't actually urban fantasy so maybe this isn't the place to discuss them :P

This is probably also not the place for MRA-flavored griping about how feminists dare to read books - and even talk about them! - without leaving their feminism at the door.

And why the fuck wouldn't I be desperate? Why shouldn't I? You can't throw a stick in a bookstore without hitting sixteen stories about people just like you, complete with black-and-white fauxjectivity. I'm sure you don't think that matters; a good book is a good book and a bad book is a bad book, right? Based on criteria made by more of those people just like you. Whatever.

and to end on a lighter note, omg laini taylor talking about monstrous women sounds amazeballs

What, exactly, are 'people like me'?

Are you trying to be overly offensive? Or are you just unaware of the shit you say, and how it sounds?

You know nothing about me. Zero fucking things. You don't like that I disagree with you about feminine 'otherness'? Fine, but continuing to insult me is just plain silly.

Your attempts to make me into some fucking simpleton is getting old as well. There are plenty of things that I could reduce you to, based on your porting history, but choose not to. Because that's the mature thing to do. Well that and I'd probably be banned, but you seem to be able to do whatever you want with impunity.

[peterbound]

Well, the first article I ran into that dealt with feminist media theory (Crom Dubh, I am humbled that you think I am a student of literature, but I am but a laywoman. My education is all science/math/IT ) included a section on the feminine linked to the monstrous, elaborating on this theme by giving examples from several horror movies where the female character and the monster share a bond based in their Otherness. To abbreviate a long article in half a sentence.

I'm uncertain where anyone has said men are told they cannot be something. Are we talking real life or book characters here? It seem unclear what you are referring to? Perhaps a bit of both?

Ah. But the author is dead. Did Strindberg mean to be analysed by thousands of students every year? What about Hemingway? Did he write so that hundreds of hunders of scholars can have something to do?

No, not really. But that has happened anyway. Once the writer is done and publishes it, it is out of his or her hands. Gone. And the interpretation is up to the reader, always. While I think giving some clarification when asked is acceptable, anything more is just not going to happen. Hence it does not matter what the writer originally meant. Case in point: Bakker claims to write this feminist epic, yet it is one of the least feminist publications I have read. Potentially unintentional, too.

On a book reading note: finished Paladin of Souls and it was a wonderful read. Perhaps not as aweinspiring as Curse of Chalion, but certainly faster paced and Ista is more fun and more sarcastic than poor lovable Lupe dy Cazaril. It is potentially the most...hopeful novel I have ever read. Since it's Bujold not in Vorkosigan mode, it is far more bittersweet than for it to be simply wrapped up, but still so very hopeful. Plus Bujold's constant riffing on the Kiss of Life and the Snow White myth were pretty funny and entertaining.

There is also something special about a saint who goes about invoking her God by cursing his name.

Realised the new Bec McMaster gothic steampunk novel was out so I am ALL OVER THAT LIKE A BAD RASH!!

Are you planning on reading the 'hallowed hunt' next?

[lady narcissa]

Realised the new Bec McMaster gothic steampunk novel was out so I am ALL OVER THAT LIKE A BAD RASH!!

I got the first book in this series for free at a con but I haven't read it yet. Should I check it out??

and to end on a lighter note, omg laini taylor talking about monstrous women sounds amazeballs

It was! But not so amazeballs as Laini Taylor reading a short story she wrote when she was in high school which was the most cracktastic thing I have ever heard. There was the vampire/fairy/DavidBowie like male character and the innocent teenage virginal heroine and a cemetery and Baudelaire quotes and parts written in French plus Taylor reading it in a totally affected voice. I have never laughed so hard in my life. I might have peed a little. It was epic.

[Mars447]

Just finished the first Kate Daniels book, Magic Bites. It's pretty good, and I really like Kate. Her and Toby Daye are two female, first person UF protagonists who have not made me immediately want to shut the book. On the flipside, the worldbuilding is a little wonky (the magic/technology dichotomy is a little old hat, but hearing "magic" and "tech" talked about like it's the weather is just weird) and Curran is annoyingly an asshole with a heart of gold. I also could've used more of Derek, since I'm a huge fan of Toby and Quentin's big sister/little brother relationship and I could see this one developing in much the same way.

Actually come to think of it those are some remarkable similarities between the two series...

[Lyanna Stark]

Are you planning on reading the 'hallowed hunt' next?

Not sure, might hold off on it for a little while.

I got the first book in this series for free at a con but I haven't read it yet. Should I check it out??

Well, let's put it this way:

a. It has a lot of potential, and I mean a lot, since it actually deals with a backdrop that is an extremely messy political situation, and the main characters are all involved with this from various perspectives. This makes it far more interesting than most UF/paranormal romances in that it at least attempts to approach some larger themes and sets up a nice, neat little net of plot, twists, murky family relations, etc.

b. it has no elves (this is good). It has vampires, although they are not known as vampires within the universe, since vampires also exist but are defined differently. It also has werewolves but only a few.

c. the vampire angst is pretty subdued and mostly focused on what it means to be a monster, and not some deep, undead existential angst. The vampires in this world are also mortal as they have a longer lifespan, but as vampirism is basically a disease, there is an end point and it is not pretty.

d. I think there are attempts at a very sex positive slant for the female characters, and that they also need to reach some sort of personal fulfillment and sort out their identity issues along the way, which is a good thing. There are also attempts at presenting the heroines as competent and good at what they do, and how this is accepted (it doesn't always work tho, since well, tropes...).

e. more writers than China Mieville needs to write about a leftist revolution

However:

a. the author needs to get a better editor, oh yes she does. I grit my teeth every time I see "pants", "trousers" and "breechers" used interchangably. It gives me the impression that half the time, the male characters are walking around in their underpants. I can live with "pants" even in a historical setting, even in a Victorian London steampunk setting, if it is used consistently. However, it's not used consistently and it annoys me. There are also other language inconsistensies, in that sometimes British English is used, and sometimes we have "gotten", "color" and "gray". Choose your poison, stick to it, FFS. This grinds my gears almost as much as fucking elves. Ok it doesn't, but you get my drift. :D

b. too much time spent on romance which could be spent on plot. Especially the latter two novels are guilty of this. The first one is more a setup, while the real action takes place in novel 2 and 3, if we are looking at the political high stakes. Disappointingly, book 4 and 5 (the last one) have so much potential yet it gets squandered and the pace bogged down by too much emphasis on just romance conflict.

c. holy romance tropes. Like, my goodness, they are overloaded with it, and if I read another "his body was all taut lines and hard angles" I am going to scream, and not in pleasure I assure you. (Whatever the world is a "hard angle" anyway? Perhaps it's angles below 90 degrees. Although it did make me think of "hard turn" and potential motorbike accidents.)

d. anomalies and historical anachronisms. Seriously, viruses were not found in another 50 or so years at the point the story is taking place. It's not the only anachronism, but it is by far the worst, and left unexplained. Sometimes I also think the author forgets how the vampiric bodies are explained, since in most cases they are cool, but then "hot against the touch". No really, consistensy is the mother of suspension of belief.

e. the worst offender is probably wasted potential. It's rare to find an UF/paranormal romance where the author uses the setting and the surrounding characters as something else than backdrop or as a setting for interesting problems for the characters to sort out, which are more often than not of personal nature. Here, especially in the second and third novel, we are presented with quite an intricate political web, and with some pretty tantalising and well positioned secondary characters, yet there are a lot of threads left hanging at the end in a very non satisfactory way. I'd also say that book 4 is almost a paranthesis in the series, as the main characters in this novel make appearances in the earlier ones, but get totally sidelined in the last one and get mentioned maybe three times in total. In general, the fifth and last novel was better than the fourth, but still a huge let down given what it could have been.

e. minor quibble perhaps, but the writer is definitely a GRRM fan, as there is a "Duke of Lannister" (who's a total arse as well) and I swear she nicked two or three lines as well, as they jumped off the page at me. Luckily, it wasn't "The things we do for love" cos in that case I think I would just have deleted the thing from my kindle. There are some lines that should never be passed.

So in essence, are they worth reading? If they're cheap, definitely, especially books two and three, I think. With a good editor and a good whack upon the head (all that wasted potential...) for the writer, I think these novels could have been really good.

[lady narcissa]

Hmm that gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for such detail. Sounds like since I have the first one and got it for free its worth at least giving that one a go. The language/word issues will irk me I know, especially since I know about them going into the book. Would be interesting to compare this with Meljean Brook’s Iron Seas series and Kristen Callihan’s Darkest London series.

if I read another "his body was all taut lines and hard angles" I am going to scream, and not in pleasure I assure you. (Whatever the world is a "hard angle" anyway? Perhaps it's angles below 90 degrees.

ROTF! Reminds me of the overuse of “winged brows” on heroines. I guess they are supposed to sound delicate and angelic? Until I saw a picture of man who had only what I could describe as winged brows and found them to be anything but delicate! Very much angry hairy brows instead.

But as to hard angles, perhaps something like this?

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123603

LOL! Just looks a bit bulky and uncomfortable, however.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hmm that gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for such detail. Sounds like since I have the first one and got it for free its worth at least giving that one a go. The language/word issues will irk me I know, especially since I know about them going into the book. Would be interesting to compare this with Meljean Brook’s Iron Seas series and Kristen Callihan’s Darkest London series.

I've been kind of eyeing up Meljean Brook's stuff and remember looking at Darkest London as well, but read a review that Brook at least had some rapetastic issues and that sort of put me off it.

ROTF! Reminds me of the overuse of “winged brows” on heroines. I guess they are supposed to sound delicate and angelic? Until I saw a picture of man who had only what I could describe as winged brows and found them to be anything but delicate! Very much angry hairy brows instead.

But as to hard angles, perhaps something like this?

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123603

LOL! Just looks a bit bulky and uncomfortable, however.

Haha these pictures are brilliant. But yes, I am not sure the author really intended that sort of imagery.

There were also some really weird descriptions of this vampire type dude who was described as "heat" behind her, when it is established all the way back in book one that that the London Steampunk vampires don't sweat, have no smell and are cool to the touch. So it made me think the dude had caught fire at some point, since why else would he be warm? Hot water bottles?

If she'd added a comment about pants too it would have made me think of this dashing vampire hero clad only in his underpants (all taut lines and hard angles, like CAD construction projects!!) running around with a hot water bottle tied to his midsection.

I'm sorry if I have ruined these novels for you forever now. :P

[lady narcissa]

I've been kind of eyeing up Meljean Brook's stuff and remember looking at Darkest London as well, but read a review that Brook at least had some rapetastic issues and that sort of put me off it.

The first book in the Iron Seas series, “The Iron Duke” does have some old school romance dynamics to the relationship between the hero and heroine that I have seen some reviews object to. If a scene or two of such moments are enough to ruin a story for you, perhaps you should skip that one. I don’t remember there being anything like that in the other three novels or short stories, however. I really enjoyed the world building and the alternate history in this series. Plus there are zombies and krakens. This series was the first one I read in a Steampunk Victorian like world. I’ve read several others since then. But I still like this take on it best. So far.

I'm sorry if I have ruined these novels for you forever now. :P

Ha ha, it takes more than that to ruin a book for me.

On book 5 of MLN Hanover. Really enjoying these now.

I only made it through the third book. The first two were so so but I really really disliked the third one.

[emberling]

I really liked the first Darkest London - a solid Beauty and the Beast variation made particularly exciting because Beauty is a monster of sorts too. Books two and three, though - utterly tiresome. Stopped after that. I don't remember if there was anything rapey; my annotation says "oh so many fun themes (and a few not-so-fun ones)" which could mean rapey or it could mean something trite like True Soul Mates. Don't remember. It's definitely a Romance Novel with all that baggage.

[Lyanna Stark]

Right, so I got "Firelight" since it was somewhat cheaper than normal and HOLY AMERICANISMS. For serious, stuff like "sidewalk" and "folks" jumping off the pages (not to mention "the avenues of London"). FFS how hard is it to do some basic research about British English and its usage? Or again, at least be bloody consistent. Have people talk about sidewalks, pants, folks, two blocks away and use gotten without making them swap over to posh British English in the next sentence. It is so frustrating I want to just bring out a red marker pen and destroy the text. Consistency, for the love of everything Holy.

Given that I am not even a native British English speaker, I have no idea how anyone born and raised in the UK could survive reading the novel without having a conniption.

Which is a shame, since the plot, minus some dumb romance tropes, seems pretty solid so far (given I am only about 100 pages in). Why taint a good story by lazy editing? I will never understand it.

[Altherion]

I only made it through the third book. The first two were so so but I really really disliked the third one.

I know what you mean, but the third one is an outlier. The fourth one is better and in the fifth, the heroine finally figures out what is really going on.

[peterbound]

Right, so I got "Firelight" since it was somewhat cheaper than normal and HOLY AMERICANISMS. For serious, stuff like "sidewalk" and "folks" jumping off the pages (not to mention "the avenues of London"). FFS how hard is it to do some basic research about British English and its usage? Or again, at least be bloody consistent. Have people talk about sidewalks, pants, folks, two blocks away and use gotten without making them swap over to posh British English in the next sentence. It is so frustrating I want to just bring out a red marker pen and destroy the text. Consistency, for the love of everything Holy.

Given that I am not even a native British English speaker, I have no idea how anyone born and raised in the UK could survive reading the novel without having a conniption.

Which is a shame, since the plot, minus some dumb romance tropes, seems pretty solid so far (given I am only about 100 pages in). Why taint a good story by lazy editing? I will never understand it.

Hmmm… Lived in the UK for 4 years, and only ever called it a 'Sidewalk'. Didn't know there was anything else.

[peterbound]

going to a Carrie Vaughn lecture next weekend. Anyone want me to ask her anything?

Should I discuss the 'Feminine Monstrous' with her? or something more specific?

[williamjm]

Hmmm… Lived in the UK for 4 years, and only ever called it a 'Sidewalk'. Didn't know there was anything else.

Pavement is the British equivalent. I agree with Lyanna that nobody British is going to say sidewalk.

[lady narcissa]

Why taint a good story by lazy editing? I will never understand it.

Oh yikes, that sounds bad. I can't believe she didn't take the time to have it Britpicked before publishing. (I mean all the Harry Potter fanfiction writers I knew took the time to do it before posting their pieces. There were always plenty of people willing to help out with that.) I got that book free at a book convention last year and I've been meaning to read it but now when I do I will for sure be bothered by that. One of the problems I had with the third Hanover book was how many mistakes there were with Chicago and architecture things. Really irked me.

I've started reading "Grave Witch" by Kalayna Price. Has anyone read any of her books? I'm a bit afraid to get too committed to it because it looks like Price is apparently behind with the 4th book in the series by about 2 years due to personal issues with the publishing date just recently being pushed back yet again. I can only handle so many series with long delays between publishing dates and I'm already at capacity.

[Lyanna Stark]

Pavement is the British equivalent. I agree with Lyanna that nobody British is going to say sidewalk.

It wouldn't be so grating if a. the setting wasn't historical London and b. whichever way the characters were speaking was applied consistently. Weirdly, the author had the class distinction on when to use "supper" and "tea" down, up to and including actually having the characters discuss it (which added a strange extra level of meta that wasn't really needed). Yet in the very next chapter something was "two blocks from the Thames" and a woman in disguise had someone try pull down her pants, which made me think people were messing with her undergarments.

Sometimes it is like the writers forget themselves and what setting they are in, as in you can get lengthy descriptions of waistcoats, top hats, dresses with tafetta details, commentary about a woman's stays (which is apparently corsetry and not stay-ups), get drawers instead of knickers or underpants and then a random "the mob tried to pull down her pants".

Oh yikes, that sounds bad. I can't believe she didn't take the time to have it Britpicked before publishing. (I mean all the Harry Potter fanfiction writers I knew took the time to do it before posting their pieces. There were always plenty of people willing to help out with that.) I got that book free at a book convention last year and I've been meaning to read it but now when I do I will for sure be bothered by that. One of the problems I had with the third Hanover book was how many mistakes there were with Chicago and architecture things. Really irked me.

Yes, it's very annoying when things you are actually familiar with are treated in a lazy fashion. I can surely appreciate that writers cannot be experts at everything, but I assume that with the internet, lots of reference books in libraries and various experts who can provice insight, it should not be too difficult to overcome the more obvious hurdles. Especially when writing about a specific type of environment which is fairly well known to a lot of people, like Chicaco or London. I guess that's why it is easier to write made-up places, since then you don't need to rely on research so much.

Anyway, nearly done with "Firelight" and it has a nice gothic feel. Just put a good editor on it, and it's a really old-skool, gothic mystery and romance tale.

going to a Carrie Vaughn lecture next weekend. Anyone want me to ask her anything?

Should I discuss the 'Feminine Monstrous' with her? or something more specific?

Sounds like fun! Haven't read any of her novels unfortunately so can't really comment on what she does or doesn't include.