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Confirmed, HBO show will spoil the ending of series


Dragon Seed

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It's breach if he gave them purpossefully a wrong ending. If he changes now HBO got unlucky, that's the risk buying a non-finished license. And if he does change it so what. I doubt he's going to massively turn his books around at this stage. Hell I'm afraid he might never finish them.

It's pretty silly to consider that he gave them a wrong ending on purpose. Obviously that's not true (even thought HBO won't be able to prove it thought, lol). But yeah, I agree with you on everything.

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I'm not going to repeat my arguments over and over again. I believe such a condition is just nonsense and that you don't know what the right to adapt the book series even means. You can prove me wrong thought. Prove that anyone in the history had signed a contract like that. I am not even asking you to prove that this was the condition in Martin's contract, just show me anywhere where it is said that such contracts are being made.

Why don't you show me a single place where it says that this isn't a common clause in all contracts in this situation? it's a logical thing to put in the contract and its a logical thing for George to accept. You living in denial doesn't change that.
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Why don't you show me a single place where it says that this isn't a common clause in all contracts in this situation? it's a logical thing to put in the contract and its a logical thing for George to accept. You living in denial doesn't change that.

I do not think that it's a logical clause, clearly because you and me understand the term 'film rights' differently. And what I am claiming here is that this clause is not common and probably even does not exist. So it's not up to me to find something that I believe does not exist, it's up to you to provide examples of such clauses, which should not be that hard, considering that, according to you, it's a common practice.

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You guys are being pedantic, and the discussion has little to do with the topic at hand. I would recommend taking it to PMs if you feel so strongly about the principles of what is in a contract. Otherwise let's move on and continue discussing the ramifications of the story being ended on TV before the books are out.


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You guys are being pedantic, and the discussion has little to do with the topic at hand. I would recommend taking it to PMs if you feel so strongly about the principles of what is in a contract. Otherwise let's move on and continue discussing the ramifications of the story being ended on TV before the books are out.

I think the real ramifications are that some people will be happy, some will be upset, and most won't ever be bothered by it.

The people who read the books will still likely buy the books when they come out. The people who never really cared for the books won't. I doubt the impact will be substantial, because Martin is now a celebrity author and anything related to GoT or ASOIAF will still make the bestseller list. Martin will still be rich and we will all go on with our lives.

So really, I don't think there's really any impact to speak of in the end.

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I think the real ramifications are that some people will be happy, some will be upset, and most won't ever be bothered by it.

The people who read the books will still likely buy the books when they come out. The people who never really cared for the books won't. I doubt the impact will be substantial, because Martin is now a celebrity author and anything related to GoT or ASOIAF will still make the bestseller list. Martin will still be rich and we will all go on with our lives.

So really, I don't think there's really any impact to speak of in the end.

I think this is, for the most part, completely true. But over the past few days I've been grappling with the pros and cons of watching S5 and beyond.

I said it elsewhere, but if George thinks there's a possibility TWOW might not be finished in time for S6, ADOS could realistically come out 6-7 years after the show ends.

Obviously it will still be a MONSTER best seller, but I (and probably George) can't shake the feeling that some of the anticipation/fandom will have cooled off with such a long interval between knowing the Ending, and getting the Specifics. Getting TWOW, say, around Easter '16 would help, but not much

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I think this is, for the most part, completely true. But over the past few days I've been grappling with the pros and cons of watching S5 and beyond.

I said it elsewhere, but if George thinks there's a possibility TWOW might not be finished in time for S6, ADOS could realistically come out 6-7 years after the show ends.

Obviously it will still be a MONSTER best seller, but I (and probably George) can't shake the feeling that some of the anticipation/fandom will have cooled off with such a long interval between knowing the Ending, and getting the Specifics. Getting TWOW, say, around Easter '16 would help, but not much

It undoubtedly will lose some of its luster, no argument there. But I think some people are angry and are trying to 'assign blame', as it were...when in truth, there's nothing to blame on anyone. Martin, HBO and D&D gambled on this show...and won BIG. All of them are making a lot of money from this. The audience wins, too, because we get a great tv series based on a great book series. I can't blame Martin for enjoying the limelight and all of the perks that comes with it...nor can I blame HBO and the showrunners for going on as planned. It is what it is.

In the end, this is a work of fiction on both sides. Neither is right nor wrong. Both are enjoyable as similar but separate stories. The next few years will no doubt be filled with this back-and-forth on the subject, but to me...it doesn't matter. I want to see the ending of the show. I want to read the ending of the books. I don't care which one I get first. I just want some closure.

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The funniest thing is after he drops TWOW before next season he will probably have ADOS in the bag ready to go so he can be done with it all. He won't say a word, we will be stuck waiting until 2020 and bam! It's released March 2017 so readers and viewers can each finish together.

Mark my words. He enjoyed this ride, but is ready to get off. If he has been in total POV mode, I could easily see him finishing each POV and then spend the rest of the time editing the next two knowing he has plenty of staff to help him edit these and put it all to bed.

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It undoubtedly will lose some of its luster, no argument there. But I think some people are angry and are trying to 'assign blame', as it were...when in truth, there's nothing to blame on anyone. Martin, HBO and D&D gambled on this show...and won BIG. All of them are making a lot of money from this. The audience wins, too, because we get a great tv series based on a great book series. I can't blame Martin for enjoying the limelight and all of the perks that comes with it...nor can I blame HBO and the showrunners for going on as planned. It is what it is.

In the end, this is a work of fiction on both sides. Neither is right nor wrong. Both are enjoyable as similar but separate stories. The next few years will no doubt be filled with this back-and-forth on the subject, but to me...it doesn't matter. I want to see the ending of the show. I want to read the ending of the books. I don't care which one I get first. I just want some closure.

Oh for sure. I love the series and the books, and as a writer myself, I think it'd take me at LEAST 5 years to write a book with similar scope/complexities/world history. So I don't think George is slow or anything. It's an unfortunate situation.

The true emotions will come out when, say, Cersei dies in the S6 premiere, or something like that. That's when we'll know how we all truly feel.

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The funniest thing is after he drops TWOW before next season he will probably have ADOS in the bag ready to go so he can be done with it all. He won't say a word, we will be stuck waiting until 2020 and bam! It's released March 2017 so readers and viewers can each finish together.

Mark my words. He enjoyed this ride, but is ready to get off. If he has been in total POV mode, I could easily see him finishing each POV and then spend the rest of the time editing the next two knowing he has plenty of staff to help him edit these and put it all to bed.

He said it was an error to suspend ASoIaF after ADWD. So he probably won't do it again. But he will have promotion tours, and conventions and travels to attend, things he cannot dismiss. So, 2017 is, IHMO excessively optimistic. But 2018 or 2019, I think it is doable. If he waits more, with the clues given by the show and by TWOW, the forums will have written the book before him. :ack:

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I do not think that it's a logical clause, clearly because you and me understand the term 'film rights' differently. And what I am claiming here is that this clause is not common and probably even does not exist. So it's not up to me to find something that I believe does not exist, it's up to you to provide examples of such clauses, which should not be that hard, considering that, according to you, it's a common practice.

See, right there. Just because you refuse to admit that it's logical doesn't change the fact that it is.

You don't seem entirely clear on how arguments work. I'm not a prosecutor on a trial, the burden of proof doesn't fall only on me. I have no proof for my side, but neither do you. But I have logic on my side while all you have is "but he would never do that!". Which is, quite simply, unbelievably childish.

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You are free to show me an example of a contract, where a movie studio, that had bought the right to adapt a book series can tell the author what to write in the books.

Martin was "throwing away the chance of a lifetime" not once before he agreed for the show. And whether he would throw this chance or wouldn't also depended on the fact, whether D&D knew who is Jon's mother. Thus Martin was perfectly fine not to sell the right to HBO. And now you are telling that he would be fine to write in the contract that HBO can tell him what to write just to be able to sell the rights to them? That's ridiculous.

You make it sound that by selling the rights to adapt the books, you sell the content of the book. That's not true. When Rowling sold the rights of Harry Potter to WB, she did not even tell to them how Harry Potter would end. WB had the rights to all future HP books without knowing what will be there. And numerous of times movie studios buy the rights to unfinished book series while having no idea what will happen in these series. That's how it happens. HBO is no different from others - they bought the rights to the unfinished book series. They were just lucky that Martin told them what will happen later, but they could have been not so lucky.

Hey, what made you think that film rights work like THAT? They don't.

You have a lot of misconceptions about how this works, I think.

First of all, HBO didn't give GRRM millions so they could adapt one, two, three, or even twelve books. They bought the rights to adapt THE STORY. The beginning, the middle, and yes, the end. Even if that end has not been written yet.

The situation we find ourselves in is fairly unique. You use Harry Potter as a comparison to try and say that a studio cannot force an author's hand in the construction of their story as it is being created. True enough, but you fail to acknowledge that movies are quite different animals from television shows. A studio can go years between individual films in a franchise much more readily than a television show can go on hiatus until the author of its source material cranks out another book. The latter would be virtually unprecedented.

Furthermore, no one ever said that HBO has the ability to dictate what GRRM writes for an ending. Agreed, he would never sign such a document, but it is not what any of those you are arguing with have suggested. He signed the adaptation rights of his entire story to HBO, and due to the irrevocable nature of television, it barreled forward while he dawdled, brainstormed, untangled a Meereenese Knot, whatever you'd like to call it. Now that it's caught up, it isn't out of the goodness of his heart that he has divulged his ending to D&D/HBO, it is out of contractual obligation. Again, the rights to his story is what they bought. He must tell them the whole story, in the event that he has not written all of it by the time the show catches up to him. Unless of course he didn't know himself what the ending was going to be, but we all know that isn't the case.

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What you had said is that he can't give them a wrong ending and that if he will, that would be a breach of the contract. Thus, if he ends the books differently from what he told HBO, that would be a breach of the contract. Where am I wrong here?

That's not at all what they said, and I think you know it. You're too busy trying to win an argument with disingenuous positions and willful ignorance. I wish I'd read ahead a couple pages in this thread before writing up my previous response to you, it seems I wasted a few minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Despite myself, I'll try one more time. All sj4iy was saying is that HBO purchased the rights to GRRM's story. They cannot dictate to him what to write. No one here has ever said as much. What they can do is ask for the ending of the story now that they've caught up to him in the narrative. He has provided it. He has had one ending in mind since the beginning. He is not planning on changing it, so all this is moot anyways. All sj4iy was saying is that GRRM cannot provide HBO with his ending, and then radically change that ending after the fact in order to sell more books and make the ending less "spoiled" for those who watch the show.

But none of this really matters anyways, as he won't change the ending he has had planned for almost 20 years under any circumstances.

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Oh for sure. I love the series and the books, and as a writer myself, I think it'd take me at LEAST 5 years to write a book with similar scope/complexities/world history. So I don't think George is slow or anything. It's an unfortunate situation.

The true emotions will come out when, say, Cersei dies in the S6 premiere, or something like that. That's when we'll know how we all truly feel.

"She might still be alive in the books guys. Remember this show is just glorified fan-fiction."

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You guys are wasting too much time discussing the theorical implications of contracts that you haven't read. Leave that for the lawyers. All that we need to show is that Martin shared with the TV producers the ending that he has envisioned from the begining of the saga. And that he may change parts of it, but most will remain untouched.





But I think some people are angry and are trying to 'assign blame', as it were...when in truth, there's nothing to blame on anyone. Martin, HBO and D&D gambled on this show...and won BIG. All of them are making a lot of money from this. The audience wins, too, because we get a great tv series based on a great book series. I can't blame Martin for enjoying the limelight and all of the perks that comes with it...nor can I blame HBO and the showrunners for going on as planned. It is what it is.





I agree that Martin, HBO and D&D won big. But not everyone wins. I lose. A lot. And I admit that I'm a little angry (although I try not to allocate "blame" as I find it a frutless endeavour). Mostly, I'm sad about this turn of events.But as you say, it is what it is.


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