No GRRM Script for Season 6

[Lovely Lyanna]

Those were my reactions too when I read the interview. I read it several times, in case it was just the way it was reported, but it still came across with a slightly unpleasant, petulant note. Of course, GRRM may just have been speaking off the cuff and not really thinking about the implications of 'what' he was saying, but he is usually pretty careful about his comments on future books. I'm very glad he is having moments of inspiration as he writes, and I hope he keeps having them so he will complete the series at some stage, but if he is only considering putting this particular twist in the books, why mention the show at all? And why bother saying that it's has gone past the point at which the show writers can do anything about it? All he needed to say was that he was making good progress with TWOW and he'd had an exciting moment of inspiration. It was quite unecessary to mention the show and all he's done is fan show vs books flames.

I honestly couldn't care less when/if George finishes the books. After all, there are millions of other books in the world worth reading!! He can take as long as he likes, and I simply disregard all his updates about supposed progress. I will believe TWOW is finished when I see it on the bookselves. I am perfectly resigned to the possibility that we may indeed never see the end of the book series, but meanwhile, we have an excellent TV series which deserves to be considered in its own right as a TV show, and I am very happy to sit back and enjoy that. At least I know we will get an ending there!

I agree because I do not think he will finish the books. To me each book has become more of a meandering mess. I love that his characters are never just good or bad. They are very real and have the same contradictory views and emotions that all of us have. That is the true greatness of GRRM's writing, but I do believe he needs to stop inventing characters and just tell the story. Inventing new characters is just another form of procrastinating. Anything to avoid actually writing a story. It seems his writing has just drifted more into simply describing characters and their surrounds or backgrounds rather than making the characters actually do anything. I will say that I liked the fifth book much better than the fourth book. I felt there was some forward motion there.

Honestly I think this is another example of publishing companies just wanting to make a dollar rather than striving to bring excellent writing to the public. The publishing companies should insist on editors. Contrary to what writers may think of editors, they serve a purpose. Everyone needs someone to crack a whip every now and then. For me it is not the actual length of these books that is the problem. It is a lack of a compelling story that is the issue. GRRM is certainly not the only writer with this problem. All writers once they gain success, seem to suffer from not being able to shut up when writing and we end up with lots and lots of description and no action. It is easy to understand that publishing companies want successful writers because after all they have to look after their profits, but by allowing these authors to just wander around with no direction or just some vague direction has been quite detrimental to the world of literature.

I am tired of being told that when writers do this and readers complain that the reader just does not understand complicated storylines. I understand complicated storylines just fine, but I refuse to confuse meandering drivel with a complicated storyline.

[Attitude]

Wasn't it proven that his writing pace is actually pretty decent?

That the problem is the sheer amount of words per book and not the actual writing speed?

What do you mean with 'prove'? Do you want to compare it? His writing speed will always be compared to other writers, and I bet that he isn't the slowest writer in history, but he definitly isn't the fastest either.

Maybe this is interesting (read everything though, because people are starting to disagree further in the discussion. For example they don't agree that rowling wrote the first book in 7 years, as which is stated):

[protar]

It has always been fully within his control to prevent the show from finishing the story. Jesus, they inked the HBO deal in 2007, 8 years ago. Since then, he has managed to get ONE book out. He knows how TV works.

And while I wouldn't call it pouting, I would call it some kind of passive/aggressive reaction to the crap situation that his own procrastination has created, why else would he keep saying how he's changing things from what the show has done/will do?

Yes, he could have written faster and avoided this. But he hasn't. That doesn't mean he has to doom himself to having his magnum opus completely spoiled by D+D. If he's managed to think of a natural twist to help prevent that I think it's genius.

[Attitude]

Yes, he could have written faster and avoided this. But he hasn't. That doesn't mean he has to doom himself to having his magnum opus completely spoiled by D+D. If he's managed to think of a natural twist to help prevent that I think it's genius.

What I think is that it might be a contractual agreement. He probably accepted that the show (most likely) would have 7 season equal to 7 books, and that would let him know the moment when the show end. He probably assumed that he would've fnished the books already.

At this point, there is no turning back for him. Maybe they agreed to change some storylines (Jaime's, Varys', Catelyns, etc.) to make sure that the books would still sell properly.

[Cas Stark]

Yes, he could have written faster and avoided this. But he hasn't. That doesn't mean he has to doom himself to having his magnum opus completely spoiled by D+D. If he's managed to think of a natural twist to help prevent that I think it's genius.

No, it would not be genius, it's petty, childish behavior. The pitch letter he sent eons ago indicates he had, at that time, in the early 90s, the end of the story for the main characters already developed. And that was before he had written any of the books. He has consistently said he knows how the story ends for the major players and how the 'game' ends.

If he were to change the ending from what he has told HBO it would be more passive/aggressive behavior on his part, which, again, is all due to his own failure/refusal/inability to write the books, contain the story or in any way impose one iota of self discipline on himself.

[protar]

No, it would not be genius, it's petty, childish behavior. The pitch letter he sent eons ago indicates he had, at that time, in the early 90s, the end of the story for the main characters already developed. And that was before he had written any of the books. He has consistently said he knows how the story ends for the major players and how the 'game' ends.

If he were to change the ending from what he has told HBO it would be more passive/aggressive behavior on his part, which, again, is all due to his own failure/refusal/inability to write the books, contain the story or in any way impose one iota of self discipline on himself.

If he went out of his way to change it, in a way that was not natural and didn't fit in with the story, but he did it anyway to spite the show - then that would be childish. But assuming he isn't lying this is a change which feels natural to him, and as a cool bonus it adds something to the books that won't be spoiled by the show. Which is great.

I think that you are exaggerating how big this change is going to be though. I sincerely doubt it will change the ending in any major way (and even if it did Martin would be well within his rights to make that change). We do not know whether or not it involves a major character, just that it involves a long standing one. I would anticipate a B or C-lister.

[protar]

What I think is that it might be a contractual agreement. He probably accepted that the show (most likely) would have 7 season equal to 7 books, and that would let him know the moment when the show end. He probably assumed that he would've fnished the books already.

At this point, there is no turning back for him. Maybe they agreed to change some storylines (Jaime's, Varys', Catelyns, etc.) to make sure that the books would still sell properly.

Seeing as Martin was convinced until very recently that the show could go 8, 9 or even 10 seasons I don't think anything of the sort was specified in the contract.

[Attitude]

Seeing as Martin was convinced until very recently that the show could go 8, 9 or even 10 seasons I don't think anything of the sort was specified in the contract.

Or he didn't read it that well.

I don't say it specificly stated: There will be 7 seasons and that's the end of it. It most likely would be something like this:

'Depending on how the series will develop, the showcreators have the right to end the series prematurely in consultation with GRRM.'

Remember, when the show started, no one knew whether or not it would actually be a hit show or not. And if something like that above is stated, it is possible that only recently (like maybe after 3 seasons or something) they decided it that the series will end after 7 seasons. And at that point, GRRM finally felt the big pressure dropping.

I think that a scenario like that is quite likely. I think that if GRRM would know that the show would only last 7 seasons (and 7 years) that he would’ve tried more to finish up the series before that. But because he felt for so long that it could take maybe 6/7 years (1 or 2 years ago) for the show to end, he didn’t feel like rushing (yet). But now he knows that there will be only 2 more seasons after this one, and he finally realizes that he isn’t far enough to finish the books before the show.

[baxter]

I have to think if George was so motivated he could actually crank the final two books out before the series ends. We're talking about someone who's been working the framework out for years. Either the challenge of beating the show to the punch will motivate him to finish or not.

This is a problem he himself created, and quite frankly, I'm glad there's a TV show, because waiting an extremely long time for a series to end is unfair to the fans. It would be one thing if he managed to have a reliable schedule on his books over time - ala Brandon Sanderson for example - but George seems to be bogged down and doesn't exactly strike me as someone who put finishing his series as the primary objective. He's gotten to enjoy the spoils of success, which is awesome, but I think it's cost him somewhat. In the end, you're still going to get what you want. And hey, if you want, you can just put your head in the sand for probably a year and avoid the ending.

But if he wants to change things up and add twists that weren't there before, that's fine by me. You can watch the intended story on TV and then debate the new changes when he finally finishes. I kind of like concept. I also won't be shocked when he just delays WoW for 2 years and then releases both books at the same time, right as the final season starts.

[Lovely Lyanna]

Wasn't it proven that his writing pace is actually pretty decent?

That the problem is the sheer amount of words per book and not the actual writing speed?

LOL It's not the length of it. It is just all of those pesky words that keep showing up. Out, out damn words.

That's just hilarious. I love it.

[protar]

Or he didn't read it that well.

I don't say it specificly stated: There will be 7 seasons and that's the end of it. It most likely would be something like this:

'Depending on how the series will develop, the showcreators have the right to end the series prematurely in consultation with GRRM.'

Remember, when the show started, no one knew whether or not it would actually be a hit show or not. And if something like that above is stated, it is possible that only recently (like maybe after 3 seasons or something) they decided it that the series will end after 7 seasons. And at that point, GRRM finally felt the big pressure dropping.

I think that a scenario like that is quite likely. I think that if GRRM would know that the show would only last 7 seasons (and 7 years) that he would’ve tried more to finish up the series before that. But because he felt for so long that it could take maybe 6/7 years (1 or 2 years ago) for the show to end, he didn’t feel like rushing (yet). But now he knows that there will be only 2 more seasons after this one, and he finally realizes that he isn’t far enough to finish the books before the show.

Is that not the opposite of what you said previously?

Yes, it was only recently that Martin found out that the show would only be seven seasons. Probably when they discussed season 5's outline and he was told that no, AFFC/ADWD wouldn't be adapted into 3 seasons.

[Mr Fixit]

Yes, he could have written faster and avoided this. But he hasn't. That doesn't mean he has to doom himself to having his magnum opus completely spoiled by D+D. If he's managed to think of a natural twist to help prevent that I think it's genius.

One twist, however big, is hardly going to result in a completely, or even significantly, different ending. With a book series as complex as this, you'd have to resort to multiple big twists and last-minute change of plans to actually accomplish anything of the sort. Of course, since Martin is bound by all he's already laid out in previous books, that'll never happen. At least not without severely compromising the integrity and internal logic of the story.

[Attitude]

Is that not the opposite of what you said previously?

Yes, it was only recently that Martin found out that the show would only be seven seasons. Probably when they discussed season 5's outline and he was told that no, AFFC/ADWD wouldn't be adapted into 3 seasons.

No, not really but maybe I wasn't clear enough.

1. In the first post I said that he might already have accepted it in the first contract agreements.

2. In my second post, I tried to explain that I didn't meant that literally. Let's sum up what I said:

- I don't think that in the first contract it was stated: 'The series will consists of 7 seasons which will be spread over 7 years.'

- I do think that there might be stated: 'Depending on how the series will develop, the showcreators have the right to end the series prematurely in consultation with GRRM.'

If the second point was stated, I can understand that when the first season was being filmed, GRRM didn't feel any pressure yet. He was quite close to finishing his 5th book. (The release was a month after the first season was finished). So after that he knew that there were 4 more books to put into a show. I just think he didn't felt at that point, that they could do that in 4 more seasons (so 4 more years and only 6 more years to finish the show). As he said, he felt that the show would need more seasons. But only recently they decided to 'end the show prematurly' (leave some shit that can be missed out, and finish the series in 7 seasons). At that point, it struck him that he didn't have another 3,4 or 5 years (seasons) but only 2 to finish his books.

I mean, let's say the entire series would be 9 seasons long. That would mean that after this season there are 4 more to come. I think it's possible that tWoW will come out before season 6 (because of his statement on his 'not a blog.'). That would mean he would have 2,5 years to finish his last book. That should be possible since his plotting is mainly done and he can wrap up his things and finish is up.

Of course, the above stated scenario will not happen, and there will be only 2 more seasons after this one. So he won't finish things in time. The only thing I can understand, is that it struck him rather late.

[talvikorppi]

LOL, I feel for GRRM, he didn't know what he'd started in the 1990s.

First he got a huge fanbase among the fantasy-reading public, then even some mentions in high-brow "literary" critiques because they couldn't ignore the best-sellers... Then his fairlytale books get made into an international hit TV-series, with fans clamouring for more.

I write as a hobby, little stories in my local contemporary world, but for background,I have to get the parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins straight.

You get bogged down with genealogy and interesting side-stories even with "real" contemporary stuff.

Imagine writing a major fantasy series. You have to create whole new geography and climate, new "old" mythology and history, new religions and their ways of worship. Then you have to have various characters traipsing this world.

I think GRRM has just got bogged down in his own creation. He created Westeros and Essos etc. and cares about, hell, loves them so much that he just can't let go, he'll keep writing more and more, exploring every sideline. He want's to write a definitive "world history". D&D want Westeros history, or actually contemporary Westerosi political and war stuff. And a logical end to the story.

Neither of them are wrong, it's just a different approach.

[Pashernate Reader]

It's clear that in order to fit the last four books' worth of plot into three seasons, the material will have to be so wholly different that I'd rather GRRM stuck to finishing tWoW rather than taking time off to contribute to someone else's story.

[BitsOfBrains]

I remember a podcast GRRM did a while back where he mentioned that he refused to sell the movie rights to one of his books because that would have also included the option for someone else to write a novel based on the movie (he wrote the book, someone else writes the movie, someone else rewrites a new book based on that movie) so I think GRRM is resentful of having somewhat lost control of the show.

I'm sure at the time when HBO drove a dump truck full off money onto his front lawn he was like, "hell yes" but now that his lifes work, his legacy (I don't think he bred, did he?) and what he will be remembered for will be spoiled and has been taken out of his hands he is salty.

It would be like if the Russians had snuck into the Apollo 11 space capsule right before lift off and planted the old hammer and sickle on the moon.

I wonder who the plot twisted character is.

I bet its one of the characters thats dead in the show but alive in the books, (Jojen, Grenn, Pyp, the guy who died on the season premier who I wont spoil for the lateies).

[Currawong]

I think the showrunners are extremely wise to set a limit on things, and determine that they are working to an ending in 7 seasons, or perhaps 8 at worst, regardless of where GRRM is with his publication progress. No matter how wonderful the book series may be eventually, it IS possible to outstay your welcome as a TV show. Indeed, even if all the books had been published at the time D&D started, I'd suggest they probably would not have wanted to go past 8 seasons at most. Writers, producers and actors all get mentally (and physically) tired: they want to move on to other things, and not be tied down to a never-ending show.

Yes, a lot will be trimmed, condensed or omitted, but that is the detail that can best be explored and lingered over in the books, if and when we get them. I think it is time to move on from all the rather boring show vs books debate, and accept that George will write the remaining books at his own pace and make whatever plot/character twists he likes. I am happy with that, and I don't see any necessity for George to be hassled by fans. At the same time, I don't think he should seem petulant, or indicate that he's unhappy that the show is now outpacing him. It's like a parent obejcting to the fact that his child has grown up and is now able to leave home and stand on its own feet, regardless of what Papa George may want or perhaps think is 'right'.

Papa George will continue to write and we all hope he will finish the books eventually. But the show is now its own entity within George's world, following his broad plotlines and character arcs and coming to an ending at a time that works for the show. We need to appreciate the qualities of both of them.

[Kajmakk]

Finally he can devote himself fully to writing the Winds. Too bad it won't come out before 2016, though.

[Axes]

LOL, I feel for GRRM, he didn't know what he'd started in the 1990s.

First he got a huge fanbase among the fantasy-reading public, then even some mentions in high-brow "literary" critiques because they couldn't ignore the best-sellers... Then his fairlytale books get made into an international hit TV-series, with fans clamouring for more.

I write as a hobby, little stories in my local contemporary world, but for background,I have to get the parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins straight.

You get bogged down with genealogy and interesting side-stories even with "real" contemporary stuff.

Imagine writing a major fantasy series. You have to create whole new geography and climate, new "old" mythology and history, new religions and their ways of worship. Then you have to have various characters traipsing this world.

I think GRRM has just got bogged down in his own creation. He created Westeros and Essos etc. and cares about, hell, loves them so much that he just can't let go, he'll keep writing more and more, exploring every sideline. He want's to write a definitive "world history". D&D want Westeros history, or actually contemporary Westerosi political and war stuff. And a logical end to the story.

Neither of them are wrong, it's just a different approach.

Agreed, but I suppose that's the difference between a good fantasy author and a truly great one. I used to think George was the latter, but that requires succesfully concluding the series on the same level as you started. Robert Jordan failed at keeping up the quality of the books.. I just hope Martin does not follow in his footsteps.

[Johnsmith]

Until anything is concrete, statements will have to be made this season.

Speculation could easily swing the other way, supported by some snippets released. Meaning it reads exactly what it says on the tin.

An author roped into a contract that he has to support.

Considering the chapter released on his own website is a contradiction to the show.

Bides his time beacuse this was how he pictured his creation. What they have done this season is totally, and I mean absolutely different to what he had written in his last two books. While presently this season is also carrying largely into the unwritten.

Doesn't take a genius to put together four making up their own conclusions

Some clarity would be absolute rather then this heresay