Heresy 161

[Voice]

Agreed, but I think the moment carries more weight as an omen rather than a conspiracy.

[Ajax Rules]

Jon and Arya were supposed to be lovers????

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy.

Yes indeed, that's exactly what the 1993 synopsis says. Now very obviously things have changed since then, not least the timing, but there's still potential for a near-growed up Arya to turn up at the Wall and there are hints that this is going to happen. The real kicker about this is that the revealing of Jon's parentage is cited in the synopsis as allowing them to get it together. There's not the slightest hint that his true parentage is central to the story or its outcome.

[King of Winters]

And with at least a foot of antler inside it's possible the stag picked the direwolf up and the antler snapped from the strain.

That's what I'm thinking. Momma Direwolf is feeling hungry. Sees a stag. Stag doesn't want to be eaten. A struggle ensues. Tines break. Necks are pierced. Pups are born.

The tines of the antlers were "snapped off", which could indicate that someone fashioned the antlers more into a knife shape. I think someone purposely killed mamma Direwolf.

[Black Crow]

And with at least a foot of antler inside it's possible the stag picked the direwolf up and the antler snapped from the strain.

That's certainly possible but doesn't explain why both the branching tines were broken off first.

Clearly we're not going to reach agreement on this point and save perhaps in an aside we're never going to learn one way or another anyway. As Addicted says the story isn't going to be advanced one way or another at this stage. However I still disagree with voice; whether that antler ended up in the she-wolf's throat where and when it did by coincidence or whether she was sacrificed, it was much more than an omen because it delivered the six pups to the six children of Winterfell "who were meant to have them."

[ummester]

Welcome to Heresy.

Yes indeed, that's exactly what the 1993 synopsis says. Now very obviously things have changed since then, not least the timing, but there's still potential for a near-growed up Arya to turn up at the Wall and there are hints that this is going to happen. The real kicker about this is that the revealing of Jon's parentage is cited in the synopsis as allowing them to get it together. There's not the slightest hint that his true parentage is central to the story or its outcome.

Good point.

I wonder if the whole mystery re Jon's parentage is a hangover from plot plans that are no longer as relevant?

[addicted to snow]

That's certainly possible but doesn't explain why both the branching tines were broken off first.

Clearly we're not going to reach agreement on this point and save perhaps in an aside we're never going to learn one way or another anyway. As Addicted says the story isn't going to be advanced one way or another at this stage. However I still disagree with voice; whether that antler ended up in the she-wolf's throat where and when it did by coincidence or whether she was sacrificed, it was much more than an omen because it delivered the six pups to the six children of Winterfell "who were meant to have them."

The book says the antler was "shattered"... meaning the tines broke off in the wolf...

[addicted to snow]

The tines of the antlers were "snapped off", which could indicate that someone fashioned the antlers more into a knife shape. I think someone purposely killed mamma Direwolf.

shattered, not snapped-off... very different meanings...

Shattered means the antler broke inside the direwolf...

there is n0 way around this...

[Black Crow]

Good point.

I wonder if the whole mystery re Jon's parentage is a hangover from plot plans that are no longer as relevant?

I'm very much inclined to think that its a monster which formed no part of GRRM's original plan and that it was indeed no more than a plot device of local importance to the Stark family. That's not to say that its only about Jon Snow getting inside Arya Stark's knickers - there may be other consequences in regards to Winterfell, but as GRRM makes very plain at the beginning this is about the Starks and the Lannisters, with Danaerys the Dragonlord taking care of the Targaryen side and perhaps the kingdom as well.

Where the monster comes in is that what started out as a theory that R+L=J has in some quarters taken over the whole damn story in a way that GRRM neither intended nor anticipated. An undoubted but minor plot device has grown to become the central mystery around which everything revolves in spite of its near total absence from the synopsis.

[Cryler]

Unless it was touched on more in the lines we can't see.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...that's exactly what the 1993 synopsis says. Now very obviously things have changed since then...

The letter was dated October 1993. I like to think this particular piece of the story was changed in November 1993.

.

[Black Crow]

Unless it was touched on more in the lines we can't see.

Nah, the seven redacted lines relate to something in the second book while GRRM says Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

The problem in relation to the R+L=J industry is that it sounds like being powerful enough to stand on its own two feet - or pairs of feet - without any other complications far less a potential challenge to Danaerys the Dragonlord.

Things have changed as the book moves on, but I really don't see an immediate volte face in November of 93 in order to introduce a cheesy return of the king theme.

[Voice]

shattered, not snapped-off... very different meanings...

Shattered means the antler broke inside the direwolf...

there is n0 way around this...

yep

[Phillip Frye]

shattered, not snapped-off... very different meanings...

Shattered means the antler broke inside the direwolf...

there is n0 way around this...

Why are you wasting your time regarding this issue that does nothing to advance the story?

In any event, you have to remember that the chapter is told from the perspective of Bran, who might be . . . what is the phrase? . . . an unreliable narrator, which is surely an expression with which you are familiar.

It's simple, Bran and the others did not consider or want to see an improvised ceremonial dagger that Gared made from the last meal consumed by Mama Direwolf and himself while they walked through the Wolfswood, so they didn't see that. Instead, they saw what they wanted or expected to see, a foot of shattered antler with the tines removed.

The people standing around the dead mother direwolf were freaked out enough with the idea of a dead wolf whelping six pups. Imagine what a ceremonial dagger from the Old Gods in the direwolf's throat would have done to them. They certainly didn't want to see that.

[Voice]

I'm very much inclined to think that its a monster which formed no part of GRRM's original plan and that it was indeed no more than a plot device of local importance to the Stark family. That's not to say that its only about Jon Snow getting inside Arya Stark's knickers - there may be other consequences in regards to Winterfell, but as GRRM makes very plain at the beginning this is about the Starks and the Lannisters, with Danaerys the Dragonlord taking care of the Targaryen side and perhaps the kingdom as well.

Where the monster comes in is that what started out as a theory that R+L=J has in some quarters taken over the whole damn story in a way that GRRM neither intended nor anticipated. An undoubted but minor plot device has grown to become the central mystery around which everything revolves in spite of its near total absence from the synopsis.

Given that there are not enough books/time left for Jon to sleep with the eleven year old who he thinks of as his little sister (sorry BC), yet, the secret of Jon's true parentage has been kept as a plot device, and saved to finally revealed in the last book, I think this lends RLJ even more weight, rather than less.

Clearly, Jon's parentage was always something GRRM considered important enough to save for the end of the series...even in 1993...as part of his original plan. And, I think it's clear to many here that the secret is no longer being reserved so that Jon can bed his little sister. So, it must be reserved now for some other purpose, important enough to warrant its reservation for the end of the series... Else, why delay it?

While in 1993 that purpose was merely of personal romantic interest to Jon, now, it no longer is. Yet it remains a secret to be revealed at the end of the series. That is telling.

Disclaimer: I'm not one of the faithful. I would love for there to be more going on than simply Rhaegar and Lyanna, but at this point so late in the game, we have precious few viable alternatives. I would much rather Howland Reed be his father, truth be told. But even that doesn't seem very likely to me. I think the most Howland has going for him are Parris' comment that George doesn't do simple, tKotLT story, and the parallel set up by LF's duel for Cat. But, that's quite thin.

There's an obscene amount of quotes heralding the RLJ connection in another place. While some of them are hilariously tangential, many more are not. It is hard to say it simply "isn't a thing..." or "isn't important..." in these books.

It is. The secret was important enough to save for the end of the "trilogy" in 1993. It's important enough to save for the final 2 books in the 7 part series today. The references exist, I'll not repeat them. I'd rather Bran be traveling with Jon's real half-siblings, but I'll not close my eyes to inconvenient truths....

[Voice]

Why are you wasting your time regarding this issue that does nothing to advance the story?

In any event, you have to remember that the chapter is told from the perspective of Bran, who might be . . . what is the phrase? . . . an unreliable narrator, which is surely an expression with which you are familiar.

Simple, Bran and the others did not consider or want to see an improvised ceremonial dagger that Gared made from the last meal consumed by Mama Direwolf and himself while they walked through the Wolfswood, so they didn't see that. Instead, they saw what they wanted or expected to see, a foot of shattered antler with the tines removed.

The people standing around the dead mother direwolf were freaked out enough with the idea of a dead wolf whelping six pups. Imagine what a ceremonial dagger from the Old Gods in the direwolf's throat would have done to them. They certainly didn't want to see that.

I remember someone making this argument before. Doesn't hold up for me. Bran isn't afraid of the scary stories. He's fascinated by knighthood. There's no way he'd fail to recognize a dagger, as opposed to "shattered antler."

Then, there are the reactions of the men. Rather than wonder who would kill this direwolf, or assume the man they just executed did, they marvel at the omen it presents.

[Phillip Frye]

On the last thread, someone questioned why no one noticed any blood on Gared's clothes from the sacrifice of Mama Direwolf to the Old Gods. That is a good question. However, blood would be difficult to spot on black clothes, i.e. the clothes of a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.

[Phillip Frye]

You see what you want to see. Has that theme come up before in the story? I believe that it has.

[Phillip Frye]

I remember someone making this argument before. Doesn't hold up for me. Bran isn't afraid of the scary stories. He's fascinated by knighthood. There's no way he'd fail to recognize a dagger, as opposed to "shattered antler."

Then, there are the reactions of the men. Rather than wonder who would kill this direwolf, or assume the man they just executed did, they marvel at the omen it presents.

The unreliable narrator argument is directed squarely at Addicted to Whomping Weirwoods, who kept pounding that point many, many heresies ago regarding Craster's mother/daughter/sister wives.

[Voice]

The unreliable narrator argument is directed squarely at Addicted to Whomping Weirwoods, who kept pounding that point many, many heresies ago regarding Craster's mother/daughter/sister wives.

Didn't mean to detract from your beef there Phil LOL, just pointing out that Bran is probably the character most likely to identify a sacrificial dagger...or at least the POV who'd most want to identify it as such.