[SPOILERS] Black Sails - Season 4 on the Horizon.

[Martini Sigil]

This is the best written show since Breaking Bad.... and the performances are all top notch.... the swerves and misdirection's are always excellent, and never gratuitous... the call backs are subtle... very little wasted dialogue for a show with this many details...

what a great fucking season.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Okay, in the past I never really had any interest in this show, in no small part because of the "Executive Producer Michael Bay" that was continually highlighted in the trailers for it. But now with the announcement that Ray Stevenson will be playing VictarionImeanBlackbeard on it I;m a bit more intrigued. And I'm actually kind of surprised to see that most reactions to it seem to be pretty positive. Maybe I should give it a shot?

[gribbles]

so it takes titus fucking pullo to get u to watch this show?

[Veltigar]

OP, just like with the previous thread, there should be a spoilerwarning in the title. We have newbies walking in and we do not wish to spoil the fun for them :)

Okay, in the past I never really had any interest in this show, in no small part because of the "Executive Producer Michael Bay" that was continually highlighted in the trailers for it. But now with the announcement that Ray Stevenson will be playing VictarionImeanBlackbeard on it I;m a bit more intrigued. And I'm actually kind of surprised to see that most reactions to it seem to be pretty positive. Maybe I should give it a shot?

Duh, you should have started already. Season one is a tad slow, but season two is amazing. I would advice you not to come back to this thread until you watched season two though, there are plenty of spoilers in here. And trust me, you don't want to get spoiled for this show.

[Veltigar]

These are all horrible reasons considering why civilization wants to reign in the pirates.

All this is happening because the pirates are savages that murdered the Governor of the colony and essentially went out of their way to crush the attempt to offer them a helping hand. Not to mention the constant raiding of the ships of innocent merchants.

Lol, the merchants are hardly innocent. You do realize that one of the main reasons for why piracy was so succesful was the absolute abysmal conditions on board of merchant ships. Not to mention people (like Billy) being forced into poorly paid and dangerous service by press gangs and the fact that those "innocent" merchant captains traded in goods produced on the backs of countless slaves. Here is a good article on just what kind of horrors merchants and men of affluence inflicted on the common people.

In short, civilization was hardly civilized. Pirates - oddly enough - were far more enlightened than so called "proper" society. I gave a few examples in my previous post like for instance the fact that pirates allowed something akin to same sex marriages, stood for a far more meritocratic system, gave far more agency to people of colour and women, payed pensions, had a form of democracy in place and what not.

In other words, all this is happening because the people in power were unbridled savages who wanted nothing more than the total subjugation of the 99% they govern. Some people did not stand for it and became pirates. Not all of those people were good men. And sadly for us, most of them weren't as visionary as Captain Vane or Captain Flint in this series. The world would have been different then.

Not to mention that they don't even own Nassau. There are people like the Pastor living on it as well. What better claim do they have? Because they murdered the Governor it's theirs?

The pastor and his kind control the interior of the island, while the pirates only control the port and the town. What right do the planters have to Nassau and its port? The fact that every single one of those planters owns and despicably exploits more slaves (black and white) than all of Nassau's pirates combined?

And there is 0 disdain of slavery, at least on this show. They need men, so they take some slaves. But Scott outright told the slaves that the pirates would just re-enslave and resell them anyway and the only reason this didn't happen is that he was an influential man himself. And still,most of the men were sent to do labour.

Again you're wrong. The pirates had far more respect for people of colour than for instance the English had. That's why black people were able to be full members of pirate crews, own property or be people of influence (e.g. Max, Mr. Scott himself or Moses). Good luck finding that in the "civilized" society of the time. Really, this should be obvious, because if pirates always sold the slaves they captured, there would be no black pirates. And that's just the people of colour. Historically speaking, pretty much every white person on the pirate vessels we see would have started out as some sort of slave as well.

Furthermore, Mr. Scott at the time was hardly enthusiastic about helping the pirates. It was in his interest to quell all hope. He eventually came around though and with good reason. None of the slaves on board Bryson's ship were forced back into slavery. Of course, the former slaves did need some way to earn an income (you know to feed and cloth themselves). Thus, most of the males became crewmembers in one of Eleanor's crews, which is a nice and profitable venture, where they could be familiarized with the use of European weaponry and learned to sail a ship. And at least two of the survivors were given positions of trust in Eleanor's enterprise.

In real life, pirates had a variety of responses to slavery. Sometimes they made the freed slaves members of their crews, sometimes they just set them free and sometimes they did indeed sell them on. There is plenty of historical precedent for black crewmembers on pirate ships. Here is an excellent blogpost on pirates and slavery in those times.

The townspeople were obeying their rightful governor. That governor did absolutely nothing to them to warrant them wanting him gone or being responsible for his actions. He hung merchants who took pirate gold. Harsh, but not really crazy. When he had a chance to subvert the law and the testimony of his daughter he did the opposite. Flint hates him but he did nothing to the townspeople to make them complicit because they refused to remove him,

Are your seriously defending governor Ash now? The man sold out his best friends out of petty greed, by his treason he singlehandedly stomped out a circle of enlightenment in England and forced Alexander Hamilton (one of his best friends mind you) to commit suicide. And that's not even the full extent of his crimes. The destruction of the town is on him as much as it is on Vane and Flint.

The only reason why he didn't mess with his daughters diary was because the judge told him the jury would be rigged and it wouldn't matter anyway. That was plainly said on screen. Thus that's not exactly admirable behaviour. Quite the opposite.

As to the townspeople, in my first post I already commented on the fact that they were unfortunetaly caught in the crossfire. On the other hand, I'm sure the Africans in those cages weren't exactly willing to come to the New World. Nor were the pirates themselves. In a war casualties are inevitable and if I have to chose between pirate society and whatever it was that Charleston stood for, I'm glad that the victims fell in Charleston.

[Maester Hodor]

So does Flint suspect that Silver was behind the deception with the hoard of gold? He was quite ambiguous whether he was part of the plot or not.

I can't quite figure out what Flint knows and what he doesn't know.

[gribbles]

I'm confused about why people think shelling Charlestown was even remotely justified?

Because Lord Ash ratted on Hamilton and put an innocent man in the loony bin?

Keep in mind, that Ash didnt just betray his friends, in many ways he also betrayed Nassau, and to some extent he also betrayed Britain by his actions. If he had simply helped his friends and convinced Parliament to go along with Thomas' plan, they would still all be happily living in London and Nassau would've been brought back under British rule, with minimal loss of life. But no, because of his selfishness and greed, Nassau was condemned to a fate of lawlessness, Britain was prevented from restoring law and order over the island, and the greater West Indies were guaranteed to endure many more years of piracy. Oh, and Charles Town wouldnt have been sacked either.

So this was a very deep betrayal with very far-reaching consequences that caused immense suffering for many people (not just flint, miranda and thomas).

[Jack Bauer 24]

Nice Season 2 review here http://ign.com/articles/2015/04/05/black-sails-season-2-review

[Jaxom 1974]

So does Flint suspect that Silver was behind the deception with the hoard of gold? He was quite ambiguous whether he was part of the plot or not.

I can't quite figure out what Flint knows and what he doesn't know.

Personally, I expected Flint to tell Silver he knew. It might turn out that he did know, but they certainly have it enough space to breathe in case they need to reveal he did know.

[Wise Fool]

Holy shit, I didn't realize Ray Stevenson was Titus Pullo. No wonder everyone's excited about him coming on as Blackbeard!

[Veltigar]

So does Flint suspect that Silver was behind the deception with the hoard of gold? He was quite ambiguous whether he was part of the plot or not.

I can't quite figure out what Flint knows and what he doesn't know.

It's a difficult question, but I'm always brought back to Silver's tale and the fact that the start just wasn't very convincing. Why would the other guy confide in Silver at just that time... It seemed rather odd to me. It would have been far more believable if Silver had claimed that the other guy had told all he knew about the treasure plot because he tried to pursuade his captors to let him live, but they simply didn't believe him and shot him. The version Silver told wasn't that plausible and I'm sure that Captain Flint does suspect something.

[Castel]

Lol, the merchants are hardly innocent. You do realize that one of the main reasons for why piracy was so succesful was the absolute abysmal conditions on board of merchant ships. Not to mention people (like Billy) being forced into poorly paid and dangerous service by press gangs and the fact that those "innocent" merchant captains traded in goods produced on the backs of countless slaves. Here is a good article on just what kind of horrors merchants and men of affluence inflicted on the common people.

In short, civilization was hardly civilized. Pirates - oddly enough - were far more enlightened than so called "proper" society. I gave a few examples in my previous post like for instance the fact that pirates allowed something akin to same sex marriages, stood for a far more meritocratic system, gave far more agency to people of colour and women, payed pensions, had a form of democracy in place and what not.

In other words, all this is happening because the people in power were unbridled savages who wanted nothing more than the total subjugation of the 99% they govern. Some people did not stand for it and became pirates. Not all of those people were good men. And sadly for us, most of them weren't as visionary as Captain Vane or Captain Flint in this series. The world would have been different then.

Point on the merchants and impressment.

The pastor and his kind control the interior of the island, while the pirates only control the port and the town. What right do the planters have to Nassau and its port? The fact that every single one of those planters owns and despicably exploits more slaves (black and white) than all of Nassau's pirates combined?

What right do you have to the port of your city? Have I misunderstood the situation? The British Government set up (or took from another colonial power) the land, kept a governor there and the pirates became over-strong and killed him. I have to defend the idea that it wasn't their place to kill the governor,whether or not he was a corrupt prick?

And, even if I was under the obligation to defend that, I must also defend the idea that it wasn't their own reaction to the governor that helped doom them? Sure, there was some crazy homophobic shit happening to help things along the way specifically for Flint but they clearly didn't help themselves.

Did the pirates discover, settle the land then have the British knock on their door demanding fealty? Because that would make a good argument. From my understanding rich pirates co-opted the governor.

Again you're wrong. The pirates had far more respect for people of colour than for instance the English had. That's why black people were able to be full members of pirate crews, own property or be people of influence (e.g. Max, Mr. Scott himself or Moses). Good luck finding that in the "civilized" society of the time. Really, this should be obvious, because if pirates always sold the slaves they captured, there would be no black pirates. And that's just the people of colour. Historically speaking, pretty much every white person on the pirate vessels we see would have started out as some sort of slave as well.

Furthermore, Mr. Scott at the time was hardly enthusiastic about helping the pirates. It was in his interest to quell all hope. He eventually came around though and with good reason. None of the slaves on board Bryson's ship were forced back into slavery. Of course, the former slaves did need some way to earn an income (you know to feed and cloth themselves). Thus, most of the males became crewmembers in one of Eleanor's crews, which is a nice and profitable venture, where they could be familiarized with the use of European weaponry and learned to sail a ship. And at least two of the survivors were given positions of trust in Eleanor's enterprise.

In real life, pirates had a variety of responses to slavery. Sometimes they made the freed slaves members of their crews, sometimes they just set them free and sometimes they did indeed sell them on. There is plenty of historical precedent for black crewmembers on pirate ships. Here is an excellent blogpost on pirates and slavery in those times.

Thanks for the article.

The pirates needed manpower. So they took men, depending on the captain and the need. The rest they enslaved didn't they? They, in general, would be better than the Brits in that there isn't a central system that funnels everyone into slavery but I don't think they had some ideological point against it. (Which is why slaves could be booty)

Is this better for the slaves? Sure.

But it touches on the issue with Mr. Scott: none of them were driven into slavery after he made his plea to Eleanor using his own position. Would they have been driven into slavery? I dunno. The deal was they'd be free if they helped overcome the crew (again, a better deal than most). But they certainly wouldn't have been freed out of some ideological reason.'

Which makes me wonder: are we supposed to believe that Eleanor doesn't sell slaves or is it just not shown?

Are your seriously defending governor Ash now? The man sold out his best friends out of petty greed, by his treason he singlehandedly stomped out a circle of enlightenment in England and forced Alexander Hamilton (one of his best friends mind you) to commit suicide. And that's not even the full extent of his crimes. The destruction of the town is on him as much as it is on Vane and Flint.

I don't need to defend Ash as a human being to find the slaughter of his entire town kind of silly.

The far stronger argument here is that the pirates essentially consider themselves at war and, as a result...shit happens. You really, really don't want to use the deaths of a few people like Flint's lover(s) to make your case.

The idea that, upon the death of a loved one, you are justified in taking absolutely disproportionate revenge on a bunch of people whose crime is living and working in the place where your enemy works is just absurd. In fact, it's tacitly acknowledging a slant in your worldview wrt to the savagery of the people you consider to hold the moral high ground there. It's not their fault because they're savages! It's the fault of the person that provoked them!

The only reason why he didn't mess with his daughters diary was because the judge told him the jury would be rigged and it wouldn't matter anyway. That was plainly said on screen. Thus that's not exactly admirable behaviour. Quite the opposite.

Dude...he's a pirate. That's completely indisputable. The jury doesn't need to be rigged. The judge told him that Flint was fucked even if the Virgin Mary came down to plead for mercy, and he was.

Whether or not he holds the moral high ground...he's guilty.

As to the townspeople, in my first post I already commented on the fact that they were unfortunetaly caught in the crossfire. On the other hand, I'm sure the Africans in those cages weren't exactly willing to come to the New World. Nor were the pirates themselves. In a war casualties are inevitable and if I have to chose between pirate society and whatever it was that Charleston stood for, I'm glad that the victims fell in Charleston.

The problem with defending the pirates here is that they're parasites. Parasites find it difficult to distance themselves for the sins of their hosts.

As we've both agreed pirates themselves could be slavers. On top of that their entire way of life was preying on the system that used slaves and committed other atrocities not out of some greater drive (perhaps with the exception of Flint) but greed and the desire for agency. They are part of this system, they're just an extra, dirty layer imposed on it.

You can see this in how they treat this conflict. There is really no ideological push here. They want what they want and the idea that they'd have to submit to British rule and help those slavers on farms or wherever is not really distressing to them for the same reason you are distressed by Charleston. People like Eleanor and Vane are at best worried about their power and agency disappearing if the British come over. They're not worried about slaves or the people they'll kill or the fact that they're essentially just imposing a hazard and selling the same goods from the people you would consider evil.

It's actually good,to have this. Spartacus had the same thing in its first season; slavery sucks...for me. Keeps the characters nice and gray.

It's a difficult question, but I'm always brought back to Silver's tale and the fact that the start just wasn't very convincing. Why would the other guy confide in Silver at just that time... It seemed rather odd to me. It would have been far more believable if Silver had claimed that the other guy had told all he knew about the treasure plot because he tried to pursuade his captors to let him live, but they simply didn't believe him and shot him. The version Silver told wasn't that plausible and I'm sure that Captain Flint does suspect something.

I have to agree. The only possible explanation I can think of is that John Silver didn't know if all of the men who interrogated them both were dead. I can't recall if they were but he was too busy in shock right then. If he was wrong he'd be fucked.

[ebevan91]

I just started watching this show. I'm 3 episodes in and I'm liking it so far.

[Castel]

I just started watching this show. I'm 3 episodes in and I'm liking it so far.

Run now! Here be spoilers!

Binge-watch it then come back. :P

[ebevan91]

Run now! Here be spoilers!

Binge-watch it then come back. :P

I'll have to binge-watch quickly because Comcast is offering all of the premium channel programs for free on On Demand this week. This isn't the only show I was planning on watching, either.

[-Ghost-]

I'll have to binge-watch quickly because Comcast is offering all of the premium channel programs for free on On Demand this week. This isn't the only show I was planning on watching, either.

Just DVR all the episodes, if you have one.

[Howdyphillip]

Just DVR all the episodes, if you have one.

You can not DVR On Demand. You can only record broadcasts

[-Ghost-]

You can not DVR On Demand. You can only record broadcasts

I can on Directv. It downloads it and save it onto the box.

[ebevan91]

I can on Directv. It downloads it and save it onto the box.

I have shitty Comcast so I can't do that. Oh well.

[Jack Bauer 24]

I'm missing this show already.