Question for all the Slaver's Bay storyline haters

[LordStoneheart]

It is false.

In the past they are trying to civilize the savages that roamed Essos, showing them the advantages of enlightned ghiscari rule.

Nowdays they are quiet in their four cities, enjoying the pleasures of civilized life.

No it's not. The slaves in slaver's bay are noted to be from all around the world.

[RainGhost]

The complicated names certainly don't help but they're only part of it. We only see from Dany's POV or from people on her side, whereas in Westeros we are shown pretty much every side and so we can see from all perspectives. The storyline in Meereen is very much Our Heroine Dany against Evil Slavers, which is just not as interesting as having a villian like Tywin Lannister, whose motivations we can understand. I'm not interested in any characters in Meereen other than Dany, Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei and the Dornishmen. Also, in general I'm not that interested in Meereen and am not that invested in Dany's character but that's just personal preference.

Having said that, I think the story arc itself is relevant to Dany's arc because she needs to learn to rule in a relatively safe environment so she can make mistakes and then get second chances, which she certainly wouldn't have got if she's gone straight to Westeros and faced some real villians. There are also some interesting things going on there. The main problem I have with it is that there's too much page time devoted to it, so it makes it repetitive and boring. I found Dany's ACoK's chapters boring but don't mind them so much because there aren't many of them. It would have been better, imo, if GRRM had just skipped to the interesting bits. Meereen is important for Dany's character development but character development can happen off-screen, even for POV characters.

[Lointain]

No it's not. The slaves in slaver's bay are noted to be from all around the world.

But they - the Ghiscari - are not attacking other countries or cities to get slave. They simply are the center for the slave trade in Essos, receiving them from private entrepeneurs, that risk life and limb going to wild and distant lands, or from the Dothraki, that like to roam around central Essos, killing, pillaging and enslaving.

The ghiscari cities, in the present, doesn't seem to be expansionist, sticking to their corner of the world.

[TheWeepingKnight]

I never viewed it as Daenerys fighting evil dark slavers, but he balancing what path she must choose and trying to force a false way upon herself along with representing the consequences of breaking a system that has been in place and stagnate for centuries, so it isn't all happy liberation. The vileness of the slavers from her perspective and the encroaching slaver army coming to besiege Meereen always played second, even third, fiddle to all these themes and the development of Daenerys as a person.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It would have been better, imo, if GRRM had just skipped to the interesting bits. Meereen is important for Dany's character development but character development can happen off-screen, even for POV characters.

I agree. For examble, Sansa has undergone tremendous character developement in AFFC with only three chapters. While, at the same time, presenting us with a far more interesting setting & supporting characters.

[Rob Snow]

The complicated names certainly don't help but they're only part of it. We only see from Dany's POV or from people on her side, whereas in Westeros we are shown pretty much every side and so we can see from all perspectives. The storyline in Meereen is very much Our Heroine Dany against Evil Slavers, which is just not as interesting as having a villian like Tywin Lannister, whose motivations we can understand. I'm not interested in any characters in Meereen other than Dany, Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei and the Dornishmen. Also, in general I'm not that interested in Meereen and am not that invested in Dany's character but that's just personal preference.

Having said that, I think the story arc itself is relevant to Dany's arc because she needs to learn to rule in a relatively safe environment so she can make mistakes and then get second chances, which she certainly wouldn't have got if she's gone straight to Westeros and faced some real villians. There are also some interesting things going on there. The main problem I have with it is that there's too much page time devoted to it, so it makes it repetitive and boring. I found Dany's ACoK's chapters boring but don't mind them so much because there aren't many of them. It would have been better, imo, if GRRM had just skipped to the interesting bits. Meereen is important for Dany's character development but character development can happen off-screen, even for POV characters.

I agree with you. Mereen is a needed storyline but not as much as it appears in Dance.

I am actually a lightweight fan of the Slaver's Bay storyline. The world building of ASOIaF has always been an aspect I have loved. SB and it's history, while a little convoluted, provides a great backdrop to examine a bunch of the cultures that have influenced Westeros over the ages.

The introduction of the different mercurial sellsword company leaders, as well as the slave armies of the Yunkai, Astapori, and Mereen also display exactly how difficult conquering Westeros will be.

I think that the frustration with the storyline, is that it highlights, with alarming clarity, all of Dany's shortcomings, which reminds readers just how far off Dany conquering Westeros truly is.

[Cat of the Rivers]

It's more of the world building that kills it for me. Look at all the places Dany's went and their culture. It's filled up to the brim with puppy brain eating, ridiculous clothing, stupid people with laughable names that I cannot pronounce without trying a few times and squinting at the page (Mereen people use 'z's like Westerosi use 'y's), who make Ned seem like the perfect Machiavellian prince and characters so evil to the point where Joffrey looks like Shireen Baratheon. But like I've demonstrated in my post I have a tendency to compare it to Westeros.

[PurpleLynch]

I actually like Dany's storyline,even in Mereen. It shows how difficult(maybe impossible) is changing a different culture. I could be crazy,but I wasn't bored by any chapter of Asoiaf. I find beauty in all chapter and to me it's refreshing seeing a different culture from the Westeros's one.

I'm just eager to see Dany coming with Drogon to kick the ish out of these damned slavers.

[Archmaester]

On my first read through I found parts of Dany's ADWD arc a little slow, and I still think that some of her material could be cut, but it is undoubtedly one of those arcs that improves significantly on rereads. I think that much of the negativity stems from the fact that there is so much build up to a huge battle that never occurs, and once TWOW is out and the books are able to be read back to back the slavers bay story will feel much more complete and satisfying.

As for the argument that the characters in slavers bay are rather one dimensional and uninteresting, particularly the villains, I largely agree with this point. However I do feel that at least one character - the Shavepate - can stand up to his Westeri counterparts. If you subscribe to the theories from the Meereenese Blot then the Shavepate becomes much more interesting. Likewise if you have read the analysis of BryndenBFish then it appears that the Shavepate may play a significant and traitorous role in the battle of fire that will add further intrigue to his character and will at least provide us with a smart Essosi villain.

Edit: repeated word

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

It's not that bad. Dany is an end-game piece, so she has to be parked outside of Westeros until the time is right. It's getting interesting now that all hell is breaking loose. Can't wait to read more about Victarion and Barristan kicking Yunkai ass.

[Anythingatall]

The expanded story would have made a nice companion piece. It just feels so disjointed and unnecessary in the main book.

I think the show has handled it well thus far, cutting it down while keeping the main themes (leadership, betrayal etc). Plus as others have said we have Sansa's complicated story line played out in less chapters with tonnes of development. So it is doable.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

I honestly found it boring and quentyn story in there never helped either since it was much like brienne's through the realm after the war.

Still i shall appreciate the future story lines it set up so i can't complain too much. When i have barry leading an army to look forward to along with tyrion plotting dragons free and the ironborn and a devious maester to arrive soon.

[RainGhost]

I agree. For examble, Sansa has undergone tremendous character developement in AFFC with only three chapters. While, at the same time, presenting us with a far more interesting setting & supporting characters.

An excellent example. Does she really only have 3 chapters? We get all the information we need in those chapters without any of it being boring or repetitive and as you say with more interesting characters.

The expanded story would have made a nice companion piece. It just feels so disjointed and unnecessary in the main book.

That might have been a good idea, something extra released after the series is over for the die hard fans that doesn't interrupt the main book (although I guess we can just skip to the good bits on re-reads).

[Nictarion]

Reading this thread made me laugh quite a bit. My good buddy (a non forum goer) makes many of these complaints about Dany in ADWD and the AFFC / ADWD split in general... and the sever lack of editing.. I see these problems too, but usually end up in the position of defending George to some extent. Anyway, I'll have to show him this thread, he's gonna say "SEE! I told you he needs a stronger editor, I'm not the only one who thinks that!" He complains about the alliteration overuse too... Don't get me wrong, he loves the books and has read and reread them, as have I and probably everyone else here... But it's still valid to call a spade a spade, it's all in love. Anyway just wanted to say I got a kick out of this. :)

The most exciting things that happen with Dany are the Quaithe visions. That said, all the tension built up over the ADWD Dany chapters really explodes with the Drogon scene in the fighting pits. Sometimes y do have to build tension like that for the payoff to work. But I think we all agree ADWD would be a much better book if enough of the fat had been trimmed to make room for one or both of the big battles that were supposed to end the book. That's the main problem with ADWD imo.

One of the best payoffs in the story so far imo. Daznaks Pit, and her following chapter in the Dothraki Sea are some of the best chapters. Totally worth the slow burn to get up to them.

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's keep it civil in here, OK? Everyone has the right to their opinions. Don't castigate or harass someone because you don't agree with them. Thank you. [/mod]

[Led]

It's stupid because why would they even make the deal to begin with. Why not simply use the Unsullied army to take all 3 dragons from Dany.

Because they are businessmen, and it's really bad for business to rob your prospective customers, if word gets out?

A modern day analogy would be selling someone a gun in exchange for a gemstone in the middle of the forest, you have no way of defending yourself from the person whom you just gave a gun, or anyone else who happens by, plus you don't know shit about gemstones, so you don't know it's even a good trade.

Except that's not the same thing at all... Unsullied have been produced for quite some time, most likely with a lot of repeat customers.

Selling a gemstone for a gun would be a one time thing, not one where you would expect to repeat the trade later on.

[Anythingatall]

Because they are businessmen, and it's really bad for business to rob your prospective customers, if word gets out?

I thought that but then dragons are special. It would be worth wrecking your reputation to own the only three dragons in the world.

[Mythrel]

I see both sides - I enjoyed ADWD very much, including the Dany chapters, because I like political intrigue and don't need blood and guts flying all the time. But I also see the validity in criticism of ADWD and Days chanters there. I think it's meant to be frustrating at times - George is capturing the hot, stifling, confusing and annoyingly stubborn climate of Mereen and its people. So he's suceeded!

Exactly, I feel like people are hating on the emotional aspect that Martin does such a great job of getting across. It's not like he's not aware dany has the same chapter over and over again. Dany is frustated with the running on a treadmill of the rule in the east. Everyone one is a broken record of what they want and how they want it. we feel how dany feels while reading. It makes Dany wonder about her abilities to rule. It definitely makes me realize how much I want some fire and blood, and all this sitting around is just gonna make it better!

[Aderyn]

Exactly, I feel like people are hating on the emotional aspect that Martin does such a great job of getting across. It's not like he's not aware dany has the same chapter over and over again. Dany is frustated with the running on a treadmill of the rule in the east. Everyone one is a broken record of what they want and how they want it. we feel how dany feels while reading. It makes Dany wonder about her abilities to rule. It definitely makes me realize how much I want some fire and blood, and all this sitting around is just gonna make it better!

Well said. GRRM clearly wanted us to feel just how frustrated Dany felt with her situation in Meereen. He lets the frustration build up until finally it reaches the ultimate peak, Dany exclaims "I'm so DONE" and hops onto Drogon's back, ready to get back to the fire and blood path that she's been drifting away from for so long. It's all about Dany finally coming to terms with who she is and what she was made to achieve in this world. She's not a peacemaker, she's a conqueror.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Personally, I think there's a lot of undeserved hate towards these chapters. Yes, they are a bit jarring, but in my opinion, that's because of the clash between the expectation (Dany the hero) and the reality (Dany going towards the deep end of the alignment pool).

GRRM shifts the gears. In the first three books, Dany was the hero with the odd, excusable lapse she'd grow out off. But now her faults are catching up and those "lapses" turn out to be Dany's basic MO.

A modern day analogy would be selling someone a gun in exchange for a gemstone in the middle of the forest, you have no way of defending yourself from the person whom you just gave a gun, or anyone else who happens by, plus you don't know shit about gemstones, so you don't know it's even a good trade.

Make that a desert and you have just described the reality of modern arms trade. The illegal kind. Blood diamonds are called that for a reason. But those trades almost never turn sour. Even the most irrational dictator knows that he needs to keep his reputation intact, because he will need a second (and third, and fourth) shipment.

Problem is they aren't just taking care of themselves, they are brutally subjugating the people of every other culture on the continent.

I can't see GRRM leaving us with "whelp i guess this brutal slave-holding empire will go back to its old ways, that was a diversion!"

Rather, if he wants dark Dany he'll have her solve the problem by burning everything to the ground and let those who want to follow her to Westeros. If he wants light Dany he will have her put an end to slavery and the former slaves will rule themselves (as unlikely as that sounds, this is a fantasy series and if GRRM wants it to happen, it will).

Actually, those are not the Meereenese. Those are the Dothraki. The cuddly murpillapers Dany worships.

As for the argument that the characters in slavers bay are rather one dimensional and uninteresting, particularly the villains, I largely agree with this point. However I do feel that at least one character - the Shavepate - can stand up to his Westeri counterparts. If you subscribe to the theories from the Meereenese Blot then the Shavepate becomes much more interesting. Likewise if you have read the analysis of BryndenBFish then it appears that the Shavepate may play a significant and traitorous role in the battle of fire that will add further intrigue to his character and will at least provide us with a smart Essosi villain.

Same with the Green Grace. Or the Yellow Whale. Even the Girl General has her points. GRRM can write interesting supporting characters for Meereen.

What's important here: They get their points of interest in Barristan's, Quentyn's and Tyrion's chapters. That should tell us something about Dany's shortcomings as a PoV.