(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[brashcandy]

It's important to keep in mind the character's arc when analysing the Maiden/Mother archetypes, especially with Sansa, for whom these are not generic motifs but very specifically linked to certain defined storylines in her journey. So, for example, the only religious prayer we see her uttering in full as well as in her inner thoughts is to the Mother, which as both Brash and I posited, is the aspect relating to marriage and motherhood. Looking at the Prayer to the Seven that you cited, you'll find the verses to the Mother further down, which specifically state she "watches over every wife", and this prayer has been given to one man so far, and his surname isn't Hardyng.

<snip>

Yes, it cannot be stressed enough how we have to analyse these archetypes within the context of the character's experience. Right now, Littlefinger wants to corrupt Sansa - morally and sexually - using Harry as the instrument to achieve this domination over her. This isn't the first time we've seen the "maidenly" virtues of Sansa under threat, as she lived in KL with the terror of Joffrey taking advantage of her, and later on the fear of Tyrion claiming his "rights" as her husband. When you factor in the pointed parallels between Joffrey and Harry that Martin includes in this chapter, it makes Sansa's prayer to the maiden even more noteworthy.Her relationship with Harry isn't some natural crush that she gets to explore of her own free will; Littlefinger is orchestrating it and giving her particular instructions on how she must act and behave in order to succeed in her "seduction" of him. Sansa may not have repeated in her internal monologue her desire not to be married for her claim or anyone else's claim, but the deep-seated anxiety that causes her to flee both SR and Harry speaks for itself. In this context, I think the prayer to the maiden can represent a kind of subconscious expression of Sansa's will that isn't in line with what LF wants.

[LmL]

Your French is fine, LmL, and thanks for sharing your preliminary thoughts in the thread :)

I wanted to pull out these two sections as I found them particularly evocative for a study on Sansa and female power in general. With so many of the heirs and prominent male figures of the great houses dead, dying, missing or otherwise incapacitated, you're spot on that Martin seems to be setting up the scenario where we're going to see women holding important positions of power by the series end, and they will be key figures in rebuilding the society and its political framework, hopefully making it a much more equitable and charitable one than previously seen, essentially restoring that balance that you focus on in your mythological and astronomical studies. In my essay on mothering, I talked of how Sansa could play a vital role in the peacemaking and peacekeeping efforts necessary to heal from the wars (and the apocalyptic threat of the Others) that have caused so much destruction and suffering. This is where I see her affiliation to the mother archetype being most profound and productive. To your point on the rather stifling aspects of the Faith religion when it comes to female deities, I think it's necessary for one to find a way where all three can be embodied in a manner that promotes growth and critical awareness, and it really comes down to the individual's ability to negotiate with these aspects to furnish a more fulfilling sense of self. You have examples of mothers in the series like Cersei whose only goal appears to be to assume a lot of the unfair and unequal privileges of the patriarchy, whereas we see someone like Sansa striving against certain expectations and destabilising this hegemonic power from within.

That's a really good comparison there - Cersei is basically smashing her head against the wall of patriarchy, having always been strong willed and assertive, and having basically been raised as a princess. Her under of Melara at the early age of 10 shows that young Cersei felt entitled to do anything she wished. Sansa on the other hand has suffered unbelievable emotional and mental abuse along with quite believable physical abuse, long before she ever really learned to assert herself, before she ever learned there was a need to strive against the social order, and before she has had her bubble of Princess reality popped. These are very different paths. The idea of Sansa learning how to undermine the status quo from within is a much more subtle approach that Cersei's head on method, and it's certainly fits Sansa's personality. The destabilization occurrs when she allows men like Petyr to think about her as a pawn, when she is actually learning and planning to become a player, even if she doesn't fully realize it yet. The big defining moment for Sansa will come when she sees that she has a choice to overthrow Baelish and step out on her own, finally making a choice That SHE really wants instead of one that is forced upon her.

I have always like the idea of Sansa as Queen at the end; she's uniquely equipped with certain knowledge and skills that would make a great monarch. She's developing the political acumen of a Petyr Baelish, but she is charismatic and draws people to her in a way others do not - a critical attribute for a leader. She has tact and wit, diplomacy, and a sharp eye for detail. She knows the depths of cruelty in both men and women, she knows what a shitty King looks like, which really makes the Harry - Joffrey contrast interesting. Harry may not be just like Joffrey, but Sansa will know what to watch for either way. She will notice if he is better, or similar. She'll know how to handle him in either case. She does have themes of healing and comfort running through her story, so everything you're saying about her role as a mother and healer make sense to me.

Returning the female archetypes offer end by the faith, I just find it so glaring a contradiction between those three roles and the actual women that we have in the story. Puritanical social norms seek to repress entire portions of the human existence - they basically want to pretend premarital sex does not happen. We don't talk about it, no sex Ed, we don't do it, it doesn't happen. If it happens it's shameful and disgraceful and needs to be hidden. But people fuck - it's a pretty basic part of life. Puritanical religious conservatives love censoring things - their answer to anything they don't like is to cover it up. Drug use is treated the same way - instead of acknowledging the fact the people like to use recreational drugs and always have and dealing with that rationally, puritanical moralist want to simply throw everyone in jail. They don't want to differentiate between marijuanna and heroin - drugs are bad, just say no, that's all the information you need.

This is what the Faith has done with its definition of the female role in society. They want to pretend the untethered female does not exist. But the empowered females who are not attached to a man and are not defined by a man are all over the place. They exist, sorry High Septon!

I think the heavy emphasis on bastards plays right in to this. What is the difference between a bastard and a truborn? Marriage, a social construct. That's it. Bastards are not only feared for reasons of succession, which is historically accurate, but they are looked at as having bad blood and a wicked nature. Wow! All that shame, just because a woman slept with someone who wasn't her husband. Contrast this mentality to that of the free folk - they rejoice at any birth. Tormund encourages Jon to get Ygritte pregnant - more lively children in the world, hooray! Dorne too does not care about sex outside of wedlock, and so they don't give a shit about bastards either.

I really think George intends us to notice this difference in the way the Faith defines woman's roles and what roles women are actually playing.

[Direwolf Resilience]

LmL joining the P-t-P thread. Wow, and I'd been thinking things couldn't get any more interesting... :bowdown:

[Lyanna Stark]

This is what the Faith has done with its definition of the female role in society. They want to pretend the untethered female does not exist. But the empowered females who are not attached to a man and are not defined by a man are all over the place. They exist, sorry High Septon!

I think the heavy emphasis on bastards plays right in to this. What is the difference between a bastard and a truborn? Marriage, a social construct. That's it. Bastards are not only feared for reasons of succession, which is historically accurate, but they are looked at as having bad blood and a wicked nature. Wow! All that shame, just because a woman slept with someone who wasn't her husband. Contrast this mentality to that of the free folk - they rejoice at any birth. Tormund encourages Jon to get Ygritte pregnant - more lively children in the world, hooray! Dorne too does not care about sex outside of wedlock, and so they don't give a shit about bastards either.

I really think George intends us to notice this difference in the way the Faith defines woman's roles and what roles women are actually playing.

Interesting post Lucifer Lightbringer. :)

While I agree that the Wildlings have some interesting customs, I would not say that they are completely behind the untethered female either, as you express it. The case in point here is the wife stealing, which means less martial women like Craster's wives may have a very rough deal, while the spearwives a better one. Tormund also instantly got the Danny Flint warning from Jon so they are not without their nasties either, nor do they have any sort of legal structure which can protect women who cannot protect themselves (i.e. the young ones, the old ones and the ones who are not spearwives). For that you need social constructs like laws, and in a feudal society, marriage.

I do agree with you that the marriage market in Westeros is needlessly restrictive however, and without balance. We see Walder Frey groping some 15 year old, a spate of forced marriages or attempts to (Sansa to Tyrion, Lady Hornwood, Alys Karstark, Asha with her "seal by proxy" marriage). Tywin forced Cersei to accept marriage to either Balon Greyjoy, Willas Tyrell or Oberyn Martell and although the Tyrell's rejected her, it was still very much something she didn't want to, but Tywin insisted. Lysa was pressed into marrying Jon Arryn since he was the only one who'd have her once she was "soiled".

Clearly this is not always the case though, as Anya Waynwood was decisive in how she did not wish to foist a bride upon Harry that he did not want, so somewhere there is recognition that marriage is more than just political maneuvering. We also hear of Maekar I's children marrying for love, among then Aegon V the unlikely. Not to mention that Aegon's own brother Aemon counsels Jon Snow on love vs honour in his little speech.

In any case, it seems that what is really offensive is the lack of balance and fairness. If women could inherit like in Dorne, the power structures would be different and a situation like where Cat tried to talk Robb into trading the Kingslayer for Arya and Sansa would be simpler: he would be traded since women could be heirs. The Targaryens have strict male primogeniture, but in comes Daenerys, and should she be able to change that it may mean huge things for the other female POVs in the series. It would make Sansa the rightful heir of Winterfell, for instance, as it would make Asha the rightful heir to the Iron Islands and Cersei to Casterly Rock, etc. It would mean that women would have more room to maneuver when it comes to negotiating a marriage that would be beneficial to them, too.

As with regards to the Faith specifically, note that the North follow the Old Gods, but still practice only male primogeniture, so I don't think the Faith can take the entirety of the blame for this state of affairs.

In any case, I do agree with your general idea that the role women are playing is constantly portrayed as being restrictive and something the women in the series are struggling with, and above all, something we readers also get a strong feeling of how unfair it is. We get to follow close up how unhappy it makes Asha, Sansa, Cersei and Daenerys to have to conform to society's expectations and how the lack of agency is affecting them negatively.

[Mithras]

Re: religions and matriarchy

The earliest image we have from the CotF is that "male and female hunted together" on equal grounds.

The remnants of a similar tradition are seen in the Kingdom of Sarnor and the Patrimony of Hyrkoon. Husband and wife ride their chariots to war together. Or in some cases, only those who can give life (i.e. women) are allowed to take life.

The Dothraki seem quite patriarchal save the presence of dosh khaleen, which looks like a remnant of their original culture.

Jogos Nhai seem like the true form of the Dothraki Culture. There are two leaders of each tribe; a moonsinger and a warchief. Generally, the warchief is male and the moonsinger is female. But the reverse is also possible. And most of the time, these two must be from different sexes. They govern their own spheres of power in harmony. What is more interesting is that the first "khal of the khals" (or jhattar in their tongue) for the Jhogos Nhai people was a woman, who united the entire Jhogos Nhai and led them to victory against the greatest threat they have ever faced.

And before all of them, there is this mysterious dynasty called the Fisher Queens (most likely superhumans), who seem like the source of civilization for all the races of men.

Moons and number 13 are always feminine. There are 13 menstrual cycles in a year and some people think that this is why the number 13 came to be taken as unlucky; i.e. by the change from the lunar calendar to solar calendar representing the patriarchy taking over the matriarchy.

This naturally brings the tale of the Night’s King, who was the 13^th LC of the NW; who reigned for 13 years; who was seduced by “a woman with the skin as white as moon”. So, perhaps the history of the Night’s King was written by the victors representing the patriarchy and sun. So, perhaps AA won and the NK lost, hence we condemn the NK, not AA.

We have also made an interesting observation that present patriarchal Andals had two symbols at the beginning: the Seven-pointed Star and a double-bladed axe, which in Real World we call Labrys. This is a symbol of femininity and matriarchy and the fact that Andals dropped this symbol in favor of their seven-pointed stars representing their seven gods speaks volumes. The idea is that there was a second moon once, which adds up to 8 wanderers in the sky, meaning 8 gods. But this moon was struck by a comet sent by the sun and the collision destroyed the moon and cast it down to the earth. This casting down of the 8th god is the subject of one of the earliest stories of George. This scenario also looks quite similar to the Bloodstone Emperor who usurped the crown from the Amethyst Empress and cast her down, which is known as the Blood Betrayal.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Interesting round-up, Mithras! Thank you for posting it.

I note that while the First Men have male primogeniture, there seems to be a bit more wiggle room than the Andal-dominated areas: there is Bear Island, which is certainly First Men in origin, and where the Mormont women not only rule, they have children out of wedlock ("fathered by bears" I think is one of those face-saving myths!) and it is accepted. If Meera Reed is a typical Crannogwoman, they must be quite egalitarian, and she does mention that Crannogwomen hunt alongside the men. I surmise this is because the Children of the Forest culture remained strong there, as nobody wanted to bother with the Neck. Finally, we learned that women married in the Faith of the Seven swear to obey (Catelyn's first chapter in AGOT) but neither Northern vows (said silently before a heart tree) nor the R'hllor rite conducted by Melisandre for Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn, mentions obedience. It seems the First Men have male dominance but not as strong as the Andals; it seems that strong-willed women like Arya Stark, Alys Karstark, Wylla Manderly, Meera Reed, the Mormonts, and Black Aly Blackwood from the Old Gods-worshipping Blackwoods, and, yes, Sansa, have more room to thrive.

The Lyseni apparently have at least one goddess (the "love goddess" that Ellaria, probably half-Lyseni herself, worships); unfortunately their culture appears corrupted by slavery to the extent it's hard to tell how matriarchal it may have been. TWOIAF apparently mentioned a few female Braavosi key-holders at one point. I wonder if Braavosi women could own property in their own right? WRT Westeros, it appears that women can inherit and own property in their own right (see: Anya Waynwood, Arwyn Oakheart) but the problem is holding it and keeping the predatory men away. Sansa is recognized as heiress to Winterfell; her problem is keeping it. Her youth (she is underage so there is even more reason to marry her off to give Winterfell a "Protector") and lack of living family with power are why she has to face so many fortune-hunters. That was Donella Hornwood's problem - she didn't have anyone who could drive Ramsay Snow away. If only she had more than a few tired men-at-arms with her after the Winterfell feast... :crying:

[LmL]

Interesting post Lucifer Lightbringer. :)

While I agree that the Wildlings have some interesting customs, I would not say that they are completely behind the untethered female either, as you express it. The case in point here is the wife stealing, which means less martial women like Craster's wives may have a very rough deal, while the spearwives a better one. Tormund also instantly got the Danny Flint warning from Jon so they are not without their nasties either, nor do they have any sort of legal structure which can protect women who cannot protect themselves (i.e. the young ones, the old ones and the ones who are not spearwives). For that you need social constructs like laws, and in a feudal society, marriage.

I do agree with you that the marriage market in Westeros is needlessly restrictive however, and without balance. We see Walder Frey groping some 15 year old, a spate of forced marriages or attempts to (Sansa to Tyrion, Lady Hornwood, Alys Karstark, Asha with her "seal by proxy" marriage). Tywin forced Cersei to accept marriage to either Balon Greyjoy, Willas Tyrell or Oberyn Martell and although the Tyrell's rejected her, it was still very much something she didn't want to, but Tywin insisted. Lysa was pressed into marrying Jon Arryn since he was the only one who'd have her once she was "soiled".

Clearly this is not always the case though, as Anya Waynwood was decisive in how she did not wish to foist a bride upon Harry that he did not want, so somewhere there is recognition that marriage is more than just political maneuvering. We also hear of Maekar I's children marrying for love, among then Aegon V the unlikely. Not to mention that Aegon's own brother Aemon counsels Jon Snow on love vs honour in his little speech.

In any case, it seems that what is really offensive is the lack of balance and fairness. If women could inherit like in Dorne, the power structures would be different and a situation like where Cat tried to talk Robb into trading the Kingslayer for Arya and Sansa would be simpler: he would be traded since women could be heirs. The Targaryens have strict male primogeniture, but in comes Daenerys, and should she be able to change that it may mean huge things for the other female POVs in the series. It would make Sansa the rightful heir of Winterfell, for instance, as it would make Asha the rightful heir to the Iron Islands and Cersei to Casterly Rock, etc. It would mean that women would have more room to maneuver when it comes to negotiating a marriage that would be beneficial to them, too.

As with regards to the Faith specifically, note that the North follow the Old Gods, but still practice only male primogeniture, so I don't think the Faith can take the entirety of the blame for this state of affairs.

In any case, I do agree with your general idea that the role women are playing is constantly portrayed as being restrictive and something the women in the series are struggling with, and above all, something we readers also get a strong feeling of how unfair it is. We get to follow close up how unhappy it makes Asha, Sansa, Cersei and Daenerys to have to conform to society's expectations and how the lack of agency is affecting them negatively.

I should probably point out that the Wildlings are certainly not paragons of human rights, I was really just grabbing them as an example of the idea of bastardry and shame re: out of wedlock babies. They have a survival of the fittest / strongest thing going up there, so basically human rights are equal as long as you can hold your own - the strongest. Obviously kidnapping women is... er.... probably not going to appear on Hillary Clinton's agenda, shall we say? Of course the women view it as an acceptable custom, so it's something other than kidnapping as we understand it - it's the way men are supposed to prove their worth to a desired woman, being strong enough and clever enough to steal her away or whatever.

In any case just wanted to clarify that I am certainly not holding them up as the shining examples of equality and human rights, just that they don't seem to associate shame with non-marital sex in the way the Faith does.

I was going to say something about the First Men, but Mithras and KittensRule beet me to it (see what I did there) so I will simply agree that they are patriarchal but not as militantly so, and they don't really have the shame thing going quite as much - they seem to have inherited some from the Andals, but it's def not as thick with them.

Mithras touched on something the two of us have discussed at length, which is that successful societies in Essos tend to be far more gender equal. We see women in leadership positions in practically every city we come to. That's not to say these societies are perfect - far from it. Wealth inequality, racism, slavery, etc. But there simply does not seem to be the "slut-shame" and pathological need to control women from cradle to grave that we find in the Republican Par-- I mean Faith of the Seven. Heh heh.

I do tend to think that the male primogeniture of the iron throne is going to finally be broken here soon. As you say, this will open up opportunities for women rulers across the kingdom. I really think this is going to be a thing. Too much talent is going to waste, and Varys hates that. And I agree.

[brashcandy]

Returning the female archetypes offer end by the faith, I just find it so glaring a contradiction between those three roles and the actual women that we have in the story. Puritanical social norms seek to repress entire portions of the human existence - they basically want to pretend premarital sex does not happen. We don't talk about it, no sex Ed, we don't do it, it doesn't happen. If it happens it's shameful and disgraceful and needs to be hidden. But people fuck - it's a pretty basic part of life. Puritanical religious conservatives love censoring things - their answer to anything they don't like is to cover it up. Drug use is treated the same way - instead of acknowledging the fact the people like to use recreational drugs and always have and dealing with that rationally, puritanical moralist want to simply throw everyone in jail. They don't want to differentiate between marijuanna and heroin - drugs are bad, just say no, that's all the information you need.

For someone who has had experience with the failing of the Faith in attending to female sexuality, Sansa's story does attest to your points above. I'm specifically referring to her dismal wedding night with Tyrion, when she tried to apply what Septa Mordane told her about all men being beautiful, but realises there's nothing at all that can spark her desire, leading her to reject Tyrion's attempted reprieve outright. This is just one of the many indications we have that Sansa will not have quite a conventional sex life - strictly within the bounds of marriage - as might have been assumed when she was first introduced. She isn't willing to be the good girl and do her duty when it comes to sex and marriage as others would have it, and her prioritising of genuine emotional connections means this will likely be the deciding factor in relationships she pursues and in determining the intimacy she seeks with others. Sexual agency is a very important part of Sansa's transition from pawn to player, and this means finding ways to achieve pleasure and happiness outside of restrictive social norms.

[LmL]

If I was Harold Hardyng you wouldn't find me calling her a bastard, that's fo damn sho. Harry, the correct answer to "can I show you to your chambers?" is "Aye carumba!!"

[the Scorpion Knight]

Yes, that line raised my eyebrows up to my forehead, practically. So, if you've just been called out on being rude to a lady, and are trying to make amends with her, when she talks of the mother of your child, you just go and call her a fat cow with no shame nor a thought on how it may make you look like? To the girl you want to be forgiven by and charm, no less. This and his behaviour towards Alayne on meeting her give unfavourable impressions. I'd think that, whilst it's quite correct that he's behaving like a nobleman and with a nobleman's low opinion for bastards and smallfolk, it's also clear that this is an example of Harry's lack ot tact and basic diplomacy. Sansa herself hasn't been rude to people of inferior rank to their face necessarily, limiting it to thoughts only or to her small circle of friends. Hardyng, however, expressed it in a social circumstance and very deliberately so on top of all, so it was meant to cause her discomfort. That doesn't speak highly of him, because he's taking his unhappiness out on the girl who, for all he knows, might be as unwilling as himself in this marriage. A high lord has to have a measure of diplomacy and tact, more so if he means to inherit a rich territory whose lords are currently divided.

on a reread the the scene someone else came to my mind: Aegons and Frankly Flowers interaction which which in a ) is the polar opposite b) seems to result in geniune camerade and friendship

and on a reading of a description of the young jon arryn someone else sprang to my mind: the description doesn't fit harry the heir but Timmet son of Timmet (sans the scaring of course)

What struck me about the food was that this is a repetition (perhaps with some variation) of a key theme in Daenerys and Jon chapters. Providing food is a basic requirement of a leader, providing food is also linked to ideas around nurturing and judgement (who is going to get to eat), food issues are linked to the defeats of Jon and Daenerys - will the Sansa story line conform to that pattern or break it?

Note here that Littlefinger's policy is not to buy service, loyalty or love by giving away food but to use it as a means of amassing money! There's a lovely scene in the Charton Heston film of El Cid in which he captures Valencia (iirc) by using catapults to lob loaves of bread into a starving city - result everybody loves him. LIttlefinger is planning on taking the opposite course of action.

I liked the winged helmets - surely they will be loyal to Sansa. Littlefinger isn't paying attention to details as we see in this chapter and Sweetrobin might provoke pity but can hardly inspire loyalty.

I love GRRM's solution to the tapestry mystery, so much speculation brought to nout :crying: :laugh:

I imagine this chapter will be revised - the two uses of "fled" really stood out to me

Lf seems to be to know as much about ruling as cersei.(I wonder if he will have an end as marcus licinius crassus) which is a stark contrast to illyrio mopatis.

Hey brashcandy, some great posts on this thread, enjoying your website also.

On LF's Vale predicament, I agree his downfall comes sooner rather than later, but I did some homework on his Vale situation at the moment, and was surprised by the amount I found. Not swords to surround him as such, but some interesting Vale support I had not noticed. Forgive me if all of these are known. Here's some names and some brief reasoning. To start with, the confirmed hired help...........

Lothor Brune -- Known LF man -- Is watching Old Oswell for LF.

Oswell Kettleblack - In LF service for some time - Recently bought messages for LF from Gulltown - Is watching Lothor Brune for LF.

Lyn Corbray -- Petyr confirms he is in his service to Sansa '' His price is gold and boys '' [ Alayne II, AFFC ]

Now onto some, either supposed friends, or people seemingly in LF's debt/gift zone. [ We'll Talk Anya Waynwood later.]

Lyonel Corbray -- LF arranged his marriage, he received a large dowry and prospects of an Heir. He doesn't back the Lords Declarant in their bid to remove Petyr as Lord Protector of the Vale, he supports LF. [ Sansa I, AFFC ] Not at the Tourney, but support nonetheless.

Nestor Royce -- [ ? ] LF granted him the Gates of the Moon after TWot5K. Therefore forming House Royce of the Gates of the Moon. [ Sansa I, AFFC ] There are also the tapestries, as we now know. He seems to be working hard on Nestor, certainly no love from Bronze Yohn.

Gerold Grafton -- LF considers Lord Grafton to be one of his lordly friends, and asks to take a son of his to squire at the Eyrie. Gerold obliges and sends his son Gyles Grafton with LF. House Grafton run Gulltown. Gerold also, surprisingly, attends Lyonel Corbray's wedding.

The wedding

Talk of Lyonel's wedding leads me to Anya and others. The wedding passed me by at first, but looking again, I spotted something I missed, I think. First time round, the 'Harry' marriage pact was seemingly arranged at the wedding, LF seemed smug [ also hired Shadrich + co on way home perhaps ?] and I left it there. But.......

It was noted that the Lords Declarant shunned this wedding, yet three of them, surprisingly attended at the last minute. As Randa delights in telling Sansa, those three were, Lady Anya Waynwood, Lord Benedar Belmore and Ser Symond Templeton, the Knight of Ninestars. On LF's return, he had of course set up the 'Harry' marriage pact with Anya, but what about others present ? [ Alayne III, AFFC ]

It was said in that chapter that he now has the support of Lord Belmore, but what about Templeton ? I think whoever was at that wedding is now under the spell of LF, after much discussion and scheming. So who notable was there ? There was the three Lords Declarant, but also three other 'surprising attendees'. I will list them for simplicity........... Lords Declarant on the left -- Other Noble Houses on the right.

- Lord Benedar Belmore - Lord Grafton

- Lady Waynwood - Lord Lynderly

- Ser Symond Templeton - Lord Waxley

We know from above that Lord Grafton is friendly with LF, and he has a son for squire. Also that Lord Belmore now [ apparently ] supports LF. Add the fact Lady Waynwood is in LF's debt. But also notable, Lord Lynderly has handed over a son as a ward at the Eyrie, Terrance Lynderly. [ Alayne II, AFFC ] That leaves Houses Templeton and Waxley. With what info is there, and if we assume that those present were parlaying/scheming/making friends with LF :dunno: I don't think it too much of a stretch to say that LF used this time to gain favour with all these Noble Houses present.

If so, he may have more support than I thought. :crying: And in typical LF style, he has info, of a sort, on one of the other Lords Declarant not at the wedding, Lord Gilwood Hunter. Gilwood's father Eon died suspiciously, and Gilwood's two younger brothers have blamed him. But Petyr talks with Sansa on this matter, and declares he knows it was the youngest brother, Harlan, that killed their father. [ Alayne II, AFFC ] So some personal info on the Hunter's, and perhaps another way to manipulate a Vale House, or tear it apart at least.

As Lords Declarant go that leaves Yohn Royce [ who LF predicted would be hard to convince ] and Lord Horton Redfort, whos families have recently married in Mychel and Ysilla. It seems 4 of the 6 Lords Declarant are right where LF wants them. With Grafton + Lynderly squires, and potentially House Templeton + Waxley.

Another avenue of LF opportunity could perhaps be Lord Triston Sunderland of the Sisters. Godric Borrell speaks to Davos on Sweetsister and mentions that Lord Sunderland is desperate for cash as his seven sons are all set on becoming Knights. [ Davos I, ADWD ] There are Sunderlands present at the Tourney, could a LF bribe buy his trust ? Perhaps, if he knows the rumour.

So basically, I think Lyonel's wedding gave us a few pointers as to LF's potential Vale network, and some homework has cleared a few things up for me. He has, or potentially has............... Houses Corbay - Kettleblack - Grafton - Lynderly - Belmore - Waynwood - Templeton - Waxley - Lothor Brune [ maybe Nestor Royce ] on side. And in a couple of cases he has the assurance of either squire's/wards or the families debt being covered by Petyr.

I think there's been posts about possible 'Winged Knights' being almost hostages, I'll be keen to see what House names are granted wings to perhaps enhance this situation. The caveat to all this is of course that anyone could betray LF at any time, a dangerous game, but not one without a support network apparently being already potentially quite strong.

I agree with the notion of having no army, dangerous, and the idea that LF's downfall happens at the place Ned was fostered is sweet. But I can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that LF has more plans and schemes up his sleeve. Hope this was helpful to some, great thread, keep it up. :)

not to mention the mountain clans which might align against LF

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I love the idea that LF's downfall occurs in the place where Ned was brought up. :thumbsup: And Sansa is her father's daughter. I think it was telling that her first words to LF were, "I'm Sansa Stark." Especially considering he had just complimented her on sharing her mother's looks.

Despite trying her best to be Alayne, I noted that Sansa kept so many of her own memories here: she recalled Jeyne and her running through Winterfell, thought of Arya and Robb, even remembering that Ned was her father before forcing herself to be "Petyr's daughter Alayne" again. People who were killed or deeply wronged by LF are still fresh in Sansa's mind and LF had better watch it.

And speaking of Sansa's first meeting with LF - she noted that his eyes did not smile when his mouth did....and when they were talking in the cellars, LF told Sansa that he was sure she could charm Harry, but she noted again, that his eyes did not smile when his mouth did. Others have noted in this thread that LF's game seems to be slipping a bit - he's having trouble keeping all his plates spinning. I suspect we're going to see him lose control more and more. But the not-smiling-eyes thing makes me worried that LF will try to harm Sansa somehow.

Right now LF is reminding me of the myth of Icarus who thought he could fly too close to the sun, and whoops!

[Milady of York]

Lucifer means Lightbringer, on 26 Apr 2015 - 3:11 PM, said:

Returning the female archetypes offer end by the faith, I just find it so glaring a contradiction between those three roles and the actual women that we have in the story. Puritanical social norms seek to repress entire portions of the human existence - they basically want to pretend premarital sex does not happen. We don't talk about it, no sex Ed, we don't do it, it doesn't happen. If it happens it's shameful and disgraceful and needs to be hidden. But people fuck - it's a pretty basic part of life. Puritanical religious conservatives love censoring things - their answer to anything they don't like is to cover it up. Drug use is treated the same way - instead of acknowledging the fact the people like to use recreational drugs and always have and dealing with that rationally, puritanical moralist want to simply throw everyone in jail. They don't want to differentiate between marijuanna and heroin - drugs are bad, just say no, that's all the information you need.

This is what the Faith has done with its definition of the female role in society. They want to pretend the untethered female does not exist. But the empowered females who are not attached to a man and are not defined by a man are all over the place. They exist, sorry High Septon!

Welcome to our little thread, Lucifer! I see that Brash had a good reason for inviting you to come, and am glad to have you with us.

What you say about the Faith constricting the role of women according to three archetypes would be quite true for men as well: Father, Smith and Warrior are the three socially sanctioned roles for men in Westeros, and you're either a leader, a craftsman or a fighter, which doesn't allow much room for those men who cannot or don't want to be any of these three, men like Samwell Tarly for example. Much like women, those men who didn't possess the requirements to become any of these would only have the Citadel or the Faith as an option, none of which is exactly highly thought of by their society much as they recognise the usefulness of scholars and healers. Just as men whose assets are their brains might be forced into "feminine" roles like healing or scholarly work, women whose assets aren't typical of the common roles and cannot fit are likewise forced into seeking masculine roles like Brienne. Therefore, I'd say that the repressive role you see in the Faith's archetypes are applicable overall, to both sexes, although women are the ones to feel the repression the heaviest by virtue of greater societal economic and political limitations; if a man has no better choice than going into the Faith or the Citadel, he can always rise to High Septon or Grand Maester, but a woman joining the septas or Silent Sisters . . . where have we seen a High Septa or a Grand Mistress? Is there even a feminine equivalent to the maesters? We haven't even seen a Queen of Westeros, for that matter, and last time someone tried, it ended in a bloodbath.

[Colonel Green]

where have we seen a High Septa or a Grand Mistress? Is there even a feminine equivalent to the maesters?

There's no equivalent to the maesters for women (otherwise Sarella Sand could have just gone there, assuming she's at the Citadel to learn rather than just for kicks).

As far as the Faith goes, much like the Catholic Church the office of High Septon is restricted to men; though unlike the Catholic Church, female members of the ministry can be members of the Most Devout, which is basically their equivalent of the College of Cardinals. The Faith's infrastructure is one of the more, let's say, under-thought elements in GRRM's worldbuilding; although we know that the Faith has its equivalents to monasteries and nunneries, there really doesn't appear to be any equivalent to Europe's extremely powerful monastic landholders in Westeros, which in the real world could make abbesses extremely important figures (there also don't appear to be any equivalents to bishops, etc.).

[Milady of York]

There's no equivalent to the maesters for women (otherwise Sarella Sand could have just gone there, assuming she's at the Citadel to learn rather than just for kicks).

As far as the Faith goes, much like the Catholic Church the office of High Septon is restricted to men; though unlike the Catholic Church, female members of the ministry can be members of the Most Devout, which is basically their equivalent of the College of Cardinals. The Faith's infrastructure is one of the more, let's say, under-thought elements in GRRM's worldbuilding; although we know that the Faith has its equivalents to monasteries and nunneries, there really doesn't appear to be any equivalent to Europe's extremely powerful monastic landholders in Westeros, which in the real world could make abbesses extremely important figures (there also don't appear to be any equivalents to bishops, etc.).

The questions posed were rhetorical, to emphasise on how even within the restrictions of the Faith and the Citadel, men that don't fit in the prescribed societal roles can still rise high in the ranks, a possibility denied to women. As one example, crippled Bran could no longer follow the Warrior's path he wished, but as a maester or septon he could be Grand Maester or High Septon, as Ned thought. But if, say, one of his sisters were to join the Faith, the choices they'd have are so limited that the best job would probably be to become septa to a high lord's children, like Mordane was.

What you say about the Faith's structure is very true, but where I'd differ is in the underthought nature of their depiction in the books, because Martin is a Catholic educated in a Catholic school, and is a history fan with a good grasp on how the medieval institutions worked, so he does possess the knowledge to have made the world-building much more detailed and richer in this aspect. I'd be more inclined to believe he chose to simplify the Faith instead of going for the complicated and over-ceremonial reality of the Church during that period, with its ranks, bishoprics, archbishoprics, abbeys, military orders, monastic orders, saints, etc. He did the same for the feudal system and the nobility, which are much more simplified in the books than they actually were, as he's omitted such details like the middling ranks and titles, which he did for the sake of the plot. Plot is the real reason behind the lack of certain real world elements in the Faith, and considering that we don't have a POV into them nor much information into the inner workings of the Faith--we don't even have an explanation for what a Council of theirs is, for one--Martin is at liberty to show only some glimpses as the plot requires.

[Colonel Green]

GRRM is, as he says so regularly, a gardener rather than an architect, and I think that shows in the handling of the religions. If you look at Westeros in the first three books, there's very little discussion of religion in general. It only really comes into play in a big way in the fourth and fifth books. And, bluntly, so much of what we see of the Faith doesn't make much sense given the history of the Seven Kingdoms (this is especially true regarding Dorne, which post-Aegon I and pre-Daeron II was presumably dealing with the fact that the Pope of its religion had proclaimed somebody else to be the rightful ruler of Dorne, but this doesn't seem to have affected things there at all; but, indeed, all of the formerly independent kingdoms should have their own regional administrative/spiritual loci, akin to the Archbishopric of Canterbury).

[LmL]

Welcome to our little thread, Lucifer! I see that Brash had a good reason for inviting you to come, and am glad to have you with us.

What you say about the Faith constricting the role of women according to three archetypes would be quite true for men as well: Father, Smith and Warrior are the three socially sanctioned roles for men in Westeros, and you're either a leader, a craftsman or a fighter, which doesn't allow much room for those men who cannot or don't want to be any of these three, men like Samwell Tarly for example. Much like women, those men who didn't possess the requirements to become any of these would only have the Citadel or the Faith as an option, none of which is exactly highly thought of by their society much as they recognise the usefulness of scholars and healers. Just as men whose assets are their brains might be forced into "feminine" roles like healing or scholarly work, women whose assets aren't typical of the common roles and cannot fit are likewise forced into seeking masculine roles like Brienne. Therefore, I'd say that the repressive role you see in the Faith's archetypes are applicable overall, to both sexes, although women are the ones to feel the repression the heaviest by virtue of greater societal economic and political limitations; if a man has no better choice than going into the Faith or the Citadel, he can always rise to High Septon or Grand Maester, but a woman joining the septas or Silent Sisters . . . where have we seen a High Septa or a Grand Mistress? Is there even a feminine equivalent to the maesters? We haven't even seen a Queen of Westeros, for that matter, and last time someone tried, it ended in a bloodbath.

Fantastic observation, and of course patriarchy does the same thing to men in real life. Leader, craftsman, fighter. Be a man! Ha ha. It's totally true though, your comments were right on the money. Sam is a great example of a victim of this system, who else qualifies? Master Aemon perhaps? What about Daeron the Good? He was everything you want in a king, yet political opponents seized upon his lack of manliness and Daemon's hyper masculinity to foment rebellion. I don't have a lot to add except to say thanks for rounding out my observations on the Faith with the other side of the coin there. I often make this point in political discussions, that hyper masculinity and patriarchy isn't actually doing men any favors.

Anyway, great discussion, this is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for on the internets. I've been meaning to check out PtP since I heard the Sansa episode of Radio Westeros, so I'm really glad Brash called my attention to it. Great stuff! And look, adults acting like adults with each other. On the Internet!

[Avlonnic]

@ Milady of York and @ Lucifer means Lightbringer: Great observations regarding the defined roles of men and women in these stories. We certainly see occasional exceptions either at an individual level, a historical culture (World Book), or in pocket cultures like southern Dorne or parts of the North. Some of the major POVs feature outliers and rebels against traditional roles: Dany, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Asha, Alleras, etc. Yet it is clear that a wide margin of the population follow the defined roles. I think that is why it was so startling to learn that the High Septon, a paragon of conservative thought, sanctioned the participation of women in the militant group, the Poor Brothers. We even see an armed women among those guarding the sept at Darry when Jaime tries to speak with Lancel. Very unexpected.

[Mad Madam Mim]

I love the idea that LF's downfall occurs in the place where Ned was brought up. :thumbsup: And Sansa is her father's daughter. I think it was telling that her first words to LF were, "I'm Sansa Stark." Especially considering he had just complimented her on sharing her mother's looks.

Despite trying her best to be Alayne, I noted that Sansa kept so many of her own memories here: she recalled Jeyne and her running through Winterfell, thought of Arya and Robb, even remembering that Ned was her father before forcing herself to be "Petyr's daughter Alayne" again. People who were killed or deeply wronged by LF are still fresh in Sansa's mind and LF had better watch it.

And speaking of Sansa's first meeting with LF - she noted that his eyes did not smile when his mouth did....and when they were talking in the cellars, LF told Sansa that he was sure she could charm Harry, but she noted again, that his eyes did not smile when his mouth did. Others have noted in this thread that LF's game seems to be slipping a bit - he's having trouble keeping all his plates spinning. I suspect we're going to see him lose control more and more. But the not-smiling-eyes thing makes me worried that LF will try to harm Sansa somehow.

Right now LF is reminding me of the myth of Icarus who thought he could fly too close to the sun, and whoops!

I very much hope her last words to Littlefinger just before his downfall are also "I'm Sansa Stark." It would be a powerful statement of identity and personal power.

On my first read of the new chapter, I was pleased that Sansa was showing growing confidence and social savvy, however whilst she still does show her intelligence, perceptiveness and charm, on a more in-depth read I was struck by the lack of internal monologue she shows as Alayne, and the few glimpses of her thoughts that we did get where very much echoes of the Sansa of old and whilst some of these memories are happy, such as running through Winterfell with Jayne, we also see how fragile Sansa still is following her experiences in King’s Landing.

Please, he doesn’t need to love me, just make him like me, just a little, that would be enough for now

Her self-esteem with men and relationships has taken a massive knock, she only asks for Harry to just like her, just a little bit. Whilst is could be indicative of a maturing and realistic Sansa, it is actually quite a sad statement about Sansa's diminished expectations in light of the horrors she has endured. She makes a direct comparison between Harry and Joffrey in terms of appearance, but her pleas for Harry to just like her also echo her earlier pleas with Joffrey...

Laugh, Joffrey, she prayed as the juice ran down her face and the front of her blue silk gown. Laugh and be satisfied.

This shows us that Sansa is on her guard with Harry, she learnt from her experiences and she will not make the same mistake again. Sansa also uses her default ‘courtesy is a ladies armour’ weapon against Harry which is the same weapon she used against Joffrey. Interestingly, it doesn’t actually work on Harry and she is in fact rebuffed rather cruelly. She needs a new weapon, and quick.

Littlefinger offers Sansa that new weapon and the next time Sansa is confronted with Harry, it is very much as ‘Alayne’ and there seems to be a switch in her internal monologue; she does not tell us about her feelings in that moment, she does not expand on current events by linking them to any memories, instead she repeats Littlefinger’s flirting advice as a mantra during her dance with Harry “Charm him, entrance him, bewitch him”. The emphasis is always on Harry needing to like her, she is emotionally separate from her actions as Alayne.

Whilst this seems an effective coping mechanism for Sansa in a situation where she is unsure of herself, it should also be heeded as a warning about her potential over-reliance on Littlefinger for her new found ‘confidence’.

[LmL]

^^^ Great observations about the details of her inner monologue. I think George has put a lot of thought into the inner monologue of people in disguise, as he's using the alternate identity theme really heavily with Arya and Sansa. I think you're right on the money as far as picking out clues to her mindset, as sometimes she thinks Sansa thoughts and shows her vulnerability and scar tissue, while as Alayne she's projecting something more like a front. It's really fascinating use of the unreliable / limited narrator technique.

Initially in ASOIAF, we are presented with the dichotomy of politically savvy people with no morals whatsoever - Littlefinger, Cersei, etc - contrasted with Ned, who is totally honorable but foolish politically. What we need are a third type, people smart enough to play politics but who still retain a connection to morality. Sansa is being set up to do just that. Tyrion leaps to mind. Jon needs to become this. Dany also needs to become this. Varys may be a very machiavellian version of this.

[LongRider]

I very much hope her last words to Littlefinger just before his downfall are also "I'm Sansa Stark." It would be a powerful statement of identity and personal power.

~~~~snip~~~~

Littlefinger offers Sansa that new weapon and the next time Sansa is confronted with Harry, it is very much as ‘Alayne’ and there seems to be a switch in her internal monologue; she does not tell us about her feelings in that moment, she does not expand on current events by linking them to any memories, instead she repeats Littlefinger’s flirting advice as a mantra during her dance with Harry “Charm him, entrance him, bewitch him”. The emphasis is always on Harry needing to like her, she is emotionally separate from her actions as Alayne.

Whilst this seems an effective coping mechanism for Sansa in a situation where she is unsure of herself, it should also be heeded as a warning about her potential over-reliance on Littlefinger for her new found ‘confidence’.

^^^ Great observations about the details of her inner monologue. I think George has put a lot of thought into the inner monologue of people in disguise, as he's using the alternate identity theme really heavily with Arya and Sansa. I think you're right on the money as far as picking out clues to her mindset, as sometimes she thinks Sansa thoughts and shows her vulnerability and scar tissue, while as Alayne she's projecting something more like a front. It's really fascinating use of the unreliable / limited narrator technique.

Initially in ASOIAF, we are presented with the dichotomy of politically savvy people with no morals whatsoever - Littlefinger, Cersei, etc - contrasted with Ned, who is totally honorable but foolish politically. What we need are a third type, people smart enough to play politics but who still retain a connection to morality. Sansa is being set up to do just that. Tyrion leaps to mind. Jon needs to become this. Dany also needs to become this. Varys may be a very machiavellian version of this.

Great insights! I hadn't thought of the Sansa/Alayne thoughts in this way and you both are spot on. LF training is about being shallow and manipulation, Alayne might do that, but Sansa doesn't play that way, as her thoughts show. LF also told her to take Harry outside during the dance, which she didn't do. So I would think this shows that Sansa is not completely under LF's thumb.