(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[brashcandy]

[The discussion here will be on the Sansa chapter that was released today from the forthcoming The Winds of Winter, so please be aware that this thread will contain spoilers and participate or avoid accordingly.]

It's exciting to bring Pawn to Player back to continue the extensive discussion and critical analysis into Sansa's story which we've become known for. We went on hiatus a little over a year ago with the promise to return in the event of new material being released on Sansa, and that day is finally here :) Milady of York and I will continue in our co-hosting capacities, and we envision this thread as serving a hybrid reread/rethinking purpose until the novel is published in its entirety.

To begin with Ran's clarification on the controversial nature of this chapter which engendered so much controversy of its own, see this post by Lady Gwyn:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126934-twow-spoilers-alayne-i/?p=6871817

and here (scroll to the bottom for comments) http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/New_Winds_of_Winter_Excerpt

Turning to the chapter itself, it's very significant that it revolves around preparations for a tourney, which is an event that holds particular relevance for critical themes and motifs in Sansa's arc. Further, the chapter continues the exploration of Sansa's emerging sexuality, this time in a much more direct and forthright manner than we've seen before, channeled through her bastard persona Alayne. We see her relationships with LF and SR continue as much as before, the one with Randa Royce appears strengthened, and she meets the long awaited Harry the Heir.

Lots to discuss, theorise, and crackpot! Remember to keep the discussion civil and constructive.

[Milady of York]

For organisation, we’ve divided the chapter in the following four sections, so we can discuss part by part:

• Section I: From the opening line where Alayne is reading a story to Sweetrobin and they’re interrupted by Mya Stone, followed by their talk on Harry the Heir in which the little boy reveals some surprising awareness we’d not known of before, some inner thoughts on a tourney soon to happen at the Gates, and ending in Alayne leaving her charge to go search for Littlefinger.
  
• Section II: From Alayne not finding him in the solar and then going to the yard, where Myranda Royce is with Ser Ossifer and Ser Uther, from whom Alayne rescues her, only to encounter Ser Lynn Corbray, with whom they have a conversation, and then the women depart.
  
• Section III: From Alayne bumping into the Mad Mouse, who makes some cryptic remarks to her, to a race through the castle to greet the incoming Waynwood party, amongst which is Harrold Hardyng, who doesn’t behave as expected towards Alayne. Because of his words to her, she leaves him and the Lady Anya’s party to continue looking for her “father,” finding him thanks to Lothor.
  
• Section IV: From overhearing a conversation on hoarding food between Littlefinger and some of the Lords, to telling him how her meeting with Harry went, upon which he insists she has to charm the boy. And finishing in the feast at the Great Hall, where she has lots of fun and dances with many, including Harry, who she flirts with and teases on his bastards, ending up denying him her favour.
  

[BastardlyRock]

I can't add a substantive amount currently being mobile, but I did want to add what I found to be one of the smallest, albeit important lines near the end of Section IV:

What will you name the babe? she asked. Cinnamon if shes a girl? Cloves if hes a boy?

That almost made him stumble. My lady japes.

Oh, no. Petyr will howl when I tell him what I said.

Interesting to me that she now looks forward to sharing her jape with Petyr, knowing it will please him... It makes it more difficult for me to believe she may possibly be playing him (though admittedly there's still a strong case for it) but perhaps more that she's aligning herself firmly in his corner.

[Milady of York]

So we're back, and at the most unexpected of times!

This chapter release was a complete surprise, as I really didn't expect it to be released, though of late there'd been talk of an imminent release due to the HBO show. Whatever the reasons, I am very glad to have new material since . . . when was it, the Ice Age?

On a reread I'm likely to say more, but it's always fun to register first impressions in all their scattered glory. My first one was to scramble to read it, and then reread it, and then have a good laugh. Well played, Elio, well played! He did tell us Lemoncakes would have "some enjoyment" and so we did. This Lemoncake at least did. And then in December he told the Illustrating Westeros folks that there'd be "interesting things" going on the Vale, artwork-worthy, which got lost in the noise over a "controversial" chapter, and then he said it'd be a character development thing. What controversy? There's none that I can see.

Brash, me and Lyanna were ones that bet on a more confident and sexually mature Sansa as the subject of this supposed controversy, as I recall. Seems like we were spot on about this, at least! This Sansa is much more outspoken, bold, flirty, and even sassy. Quite a development, some parts were a surprise, but overall it was an enjoyable chapter that just makes me wish to see what is coming next.

More to come after I have another reread, but these things stood up to me that I would love to hear your thoughts on: The tourney and Sansa's involvement in making it be a reality; her closer relationship with Lothor Brune, which was also another of our most discussed theories, Sweetrobin and his unheard of awareness of what people expect of him, and Myranda's curious feelings over Harry as well as her insistence on Littlefinger's "finger".

[Aslerys]

Welcome back !! I've missed this threads! :D

I'm looking forward for some awsome analysis and discussions!

Overall, I liked Sansa's character development, she is more mature, confident and her "playing skills" are improving.

I'm only a little worried because this chapter seemed like "the calm before the storm" and because sometimes Sansa tries too hard to be Alayne if you know what I mean...

[brashcandy]

Thanks Aslerys, it's good to be back in this space :) It did seem like the calm before the storm, and storms have often come to Sansa's life in the form of tourneys and feasts. Since we can rule out the latter now, I guess it's the tourney that will contain the game-changing action. Sansa's character development is noteworthy - it continues on the blossoming womanhood/sexuality trajectory - but I will say it's hampered by unfortunate writing on Martin's part and some OOC moments that I'm still trying to digest.

Brash, me and Lyanna were ones that bet on a more confident and sexually mature Sansa as the subject of this supposed controversy, as I recall. Seems like we were spot on about this, at least! This Sansa is much more outspoken, bold, flirty, and even sassy. Quite a development, some parts were a surprise, but overall it was an enjoyable chapter that just makes me wish to see what is coming next.

More to come after I have another reread, but these things stood up to me that I would love to hear your thoughts on: The tourney and Sansa's involvement in making it be a reality; her closer relationship with Lothor Brune, which was also another of our most discussed theories, Sweetrobin and his unheard of awareness of what people expect of him, and Myranda's curious feelings over Harry as well as her insistence on Littlefinger's "finger".

Yeah, the controversy on "the controversy" was more controversial in the end. Nevertheless, I'm pleased this chapter has put an end to a lot of the reckless speculation that was circulating in the fandom. We saw a more gregarious and flirty Sansa at the end of her AFFC chapter when she teased the knights she met in LF's solar, but Martin has amplified it considerably in this chapter. She's in full "Alayne" mode for most of the time, and it's noteworthy that when she has those recollections of home and who she really is, there's no longer the chastisement happening in her inner thoughts. Does this mean she's finally comfortable being "Alayne all the time" or has she reconciled that Sansa is a vital part of her identity and these memories of home and family are no longer disruptive as such?

I was quite pleased to see the close familiarity between her and Lothor Brune, and he still looks to be poised as an ally. Randa is still on the fence, given that Sansa can detect a note of resentment when she complains about Harry, but their growing friendship can't be denied.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, I am glad I got a Sansa fix. It's about time. Anyway, overall I liked her new chapter. I really enjoyed seeing “Sansa Snark”. :laugh: I think it's great that she is able to trade barbs with people and be a little more direct with people. It's great to see her being a bit more assertive. Also, I'm glad she is showing signs of cunning, like for instance her suggestion about the Tourney and her contemplating Lyn Corbray's true loyalties.

Yeah, the controversy on "the controversy" was more controversial in the end. Nevertheless, I'm pleased this chapter has put an end to a lot of the reckless speculation that was circulating in the fandom. We saw a more gregarious and flirty Sansa at the end of her AFFC chapter when she teased the knights she met in LF's solar, but Martin has amplified it considerably in this chapter. She's in full "Alayne" mode for most of the time, and it's noteworthy that when she has those recollections of home and who she really is, there's no longer the chastisement happening in her inner thoughts. Does this mean she's finally comfortable being "Alayne all the time" or has she reconciled that Sansa is a vital part of her identity and these memories of home and family are no longer disruptive as such?

Yeah, I am not seeing the “controversy”. It's more like the “nontroversy”. Sansa is clearly growing up and becoming an intelligent young lady. I think some people just cant leave GOT behind. Perhaps, it's controversial with some of the fandom that Sansa isn't the girl she was in GOT. That's all I can figure,

I was quite pleased to see the close familiarity between her and Lothor Brune, and he still looks to be poised as an ally. Randa is still on the fence, given that Sansa can detect a note of resentment when she complains about Harry, but their growing friendship can't be denied.

Yeah, it's seems like perhaps she is winning Lothor's loyalty, doesn't it? Kinda of pulling Lothor away from his master a little bit? Seems to me, she has kind of done that before. Hmm. Maybe Lothor will help her later.

[yolkboy]

Great to see PtP up and running once again, and agreed that the notion of this chapter being controversial was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look forward to some analysis, and I have to say my first thought: Sweetrobin is a copycat for liking lemoncakes.

[brashcandy]

Well, I am glad I got a Sansa fix. It's about time. Anyway, overall I liked her new chapter. I really enjoyed seeing “Sansa Snark”. :laugh: I think it's great that she is able to trade barbs with people and be a little more direct with people. It's great to see her being a bit more assertive. Also, I'm glad she is showing signs of cunning, like for instance her suggestion about the Tourney and her contemplating Lyn Corbray's true loyalties.

Yeah, finally we got a chapter!! I was expecting a more sober one to start, but this shows Martin is wasting no time in taking Sansa into the next stage of her arc which is indicated by more authoritative actions, and an assertive demeanour, as you note. The lively environment of the Gates seems to have helped to embolden her, along with having Randa Royce as a close companion. As the bastard Alayne, being shy and retiring isn't really an option is it, especially now that Littlefinger has tasked her with charming Harry the Heir. And coming up with the idea on the tourney based on SR's love of the Winged Knight stories is another example of how Sansa's mothering of the boy facilitates a more realistic and healthy expression of his interests.

Yeah, it's seems like perhaps she is winning Lothor's loyalty, doesn't it? Kinda of pulling Lothor away from his master a little bit? Seems to me, she has kind of done that before. Hmm. Maybe Lothor will help her later.

Yeah, and Lothor has been characterised as a surrogate-Hound from the Fingers chapter in Storm, so I think the parallel is definitely there for us to ponder.

Great to see PtP up and running once again, and agreed that the notion of this chapter being controversial was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look forward to some analysis, and I have to say my first thought: Sweetrobin is a copycat for liking lemoncakes.

:D

Thanks, yolk!

[Milady of York]

Thank you, Aslerys, and great to see you here too, OGE!

I was quite pleased to see the close familiarity between her and Lothor Brune, and he still looks to be poised as an ally. Randa is still on the fence, given that Sansa can detect a note of resentment when she complains about Harry, but their growing friendship can't be denied.

I thought you'd mention a certain detail on seeing the list of men Sansa danced with in this chapter. Who'd have thought the Elder Brother could dance?

Seriously, on the whole, I find that the thing to criticise more from this chapter is the writing. It was sloppy, in general unpolished, and in parts it was crass, making me wonder what had happened to Martin's prose. I can understand it's not been edited, so there's a possible cause. In any case, it will definitely need an overhaul in the writing to flow better, and chunks of text would be better rewritten or edited out.

Yeah, I am not seeing the “controversy”. It's more like the “nontroversy”. Sansa is clearly growing up and becoming an intelligent young lady. I think some people just cant leave GOT behind. Perhaps, it's controversial with some of the fandom that Sansa isn't girl she was in GOT. That's all I can figure,

Nontroversy! That sounds like the adequate term for this.

This also should serve as a lesson not to overhype too much. So many seemed to go into automatic thinking mode with regard to what Sansa might do in TWOW, and a good deal of the popular theories were gloomy. In the end, we got flirting and a giant lemoncake.

Yeah, it's seems like perhaps she is winning Lothor's loyalty, doesn't it? Kinda of pulling Lothor away from his master a little bit? Seems to me, she has kind of done that before. Hmm. Maybe Lothor will help her later.

Definitely, she's winning him over. She feels confident enough round him as to give him a hug, which was surprising because she's not embraced a servant affectionately before, and also shows how far she's come in forming alliances with people that could help her. And I loved how Lothor was the first one to cheer her up after that insult when he came up with the perfect nickname for him: Harry the Arse.

[DogLover]

Wonderful to see PtP open again! I don't have anything new to add right now (my opinion and thoughts pretty much align with everyone else's), as I've only been able to read the chapter once, and in a rush. I was completely taken by surprise and as soon as I saw it, I locked myself in an empty conference room at work and read it as quickly as I could. Just as everyone mentioned, I didn't find this chapter in the least bit controversial. Until I read Lady Gwyn's post in WoW, I just assumed this wasn't even the chapter Elio was referring to.

I agree with Milday that the writing was disappointing--it didn't even seem like something written by GRRM. That aside, I'm very pleased with the development of Sansa's arc. And it turns out Harry the Heir is the jerk I expected him to be. I don't see Sansa falling for this one--not in the least bit. I do admit, I was disappointed that Sandor wasn't mentioned, but not surprised, nor do I find it discouraging.

[Ser Creighton]

Wonderful to see PtP open again! I don't have anything new to add right now (my opinion and thoughts pretty much align with everyone else's), as I've only been able to read the chapter once, and in a rush. I was completely taken by surprise and as soon as I saw it, I locked myself in an empty conference room at work and read it as quickly as I could. Just as everyone mentioned, I didn't find this chapter in the least bit controversial. Until I read Lady Gwyn's post in WoW, I just assumed this wasn't even the chapter Elio was referring to.

I agree with Milday that the writing was disappointing--it didn't even seem like something written by GRRM. That aside, I'm very pleased with the development of Sansa's arc. And it turns out Harry the Heir is the jerk I expected him to be. I don't see Sansa falling for this one--not in the leasat bit. I do admit, I was disappointed that Sandor wasn't mentioned, but not surprised, nor do I find it discouraging.

It was the chapter, and Elio explained the controversy, though it was not a big deal and he never said it was but rather the opposite, it was some bad reporting from other sources that made it seem like a major controversy.

Personally aside from it being a raw chapter and not having been fully edited, I thought it was excellent. Sansa' personal progression made sense to me given her enviorment, natural personality, new found security, and exposure and comfort with LF. She seems to have picked up on some his confidence, and a bit of his bite. But as her mentor and protector as she sees him to be, it makes sense. She has been at the Gates for at least a month or two maybe more and is no longer under the opression and fear she was exposed too in the first 4 books. I like that Martin basically made it a reintorduction to her with a bit of a time skip, it's been 10 years for readers and probably a couple months or more for Sansa. She showed signs of security and comfort and maintained some her natural character that readers have been exposed to for some time. Felt some subtle tones of perhaps a mystery but that makes sense when around LF as secrets will always follow him, saw her teenage side, as well as her still learning and adapting, found it intresting that she would catch herself from time to time and others times when she probably should have cchecked herself a bit, she showed a little over confidence, but in some ways that added to her charm and shows she is still a student but a student with some depth. Imagine a teenager with a bit of mouth on them. I thought her last line to Harry was a bit of a jump, for someone with basically no experience in the matter, but not the first time a teenager has talked a bit of a big game with nothing to really back it up.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Great to see PtP here again, and to have some new Sansa material to discuss :)

This was obviously a development chapter, but upon re-read there are (as ever) many small details worthy of note. Sweetrobin seems a bit more aware as Milady noted, and Alayne seems to not accept it as a given that he's going to die, something I found interesting in light of Petyr's sentiments in the final Alayne chapter in Feast. Myranda remains an enigma-- from her interest in Harry to her bizarre comments about Lyn Corbray, I remain convinced she's one to keep our eyes upon. And asking Alayne about her father's (ahem) "little finger" for the second time just screams "I know he's not your father!"

We saw a more gregarious and flirty Sansa at the end of her AFFC chapter when she teased the knights she met in LF's solar, but Martin has amplified it considerably in this chapter. She's in full "Alayne" mode for most of the time, and it's noteworthy that when she has those recollections of home and who she really is, there's no longer the chastisement happening in her inner thoughts. Does this mean she's finally comfortable being "Alayne all the time" or has she reconciled that Sansa is a vital part of her identity and these memories of home and family are no longer disruptive as such?

I was quite pleased to see the close familiarity between her and Lothor Brune, and he still looks to be poised as an ally. Randa is still on the fence, given that Sansa can detect a note of resentment when she complains about Harry, but their growing friendship can't be denied.

I read it as acceptance of Sansa as part of her identity. Sustained thoughts about her family members and her home with no internal guilt or reprimands. Her disconnect seems over, and she's comfortable playing her role, even coolly acknowledging when she must be careful talking with the young lad from Gulltown.

The Lothor Brune scene, though brief, was gratifying, as is the apparent friendship with Myranda. Sansa has always yearned for female companionship and it's very sweet to see her enjoying it again at last.

A number of other small observations about Harry, the Waynwoods, the Mad Mouse, and Ser Lyn I'll keep for later.

I'll just end by saying... that lemon cake! Oh myyyy ;)

[LongRider]

That chapter made me feel very uncomfortable. The Alyane/LF storyline seems to me to so fraught with danger and well, I'm biased; I hate LF!! :devil: Surprised when SR told her that HtH wants to kill him, he's almost right, it's LF.

Really looking forward to the tourney, who knows what surprises GRRM has in store for us there, can't wait!

[brashcandy]

I thought you'd mention a certain detail on seeing the list of men Sansa danced with in this chapter. Who'd have thought the Elder Brother could dance?

He is a man of many talents, clearly ;) Seriously, I'm glad to see this chapter showed the other two hedge-knights still around. Shadrich again emerges as the distinct threat among the three, but if we're right about Morgarth, he could upset those plans. It's really fascinating all the different players and interests converging at this tourney.

I agree with Milday that the writing was disappointing--it didn't even seem like something written by GRRM. That aside, I'm very pleased with the development of Sansa's arc. And it turns out Harry the Heir is the jerk I expected him to be. I don't see Sansa falling for this one--not in the leasat bit. I do admit, I was disappointed that Sandor wasn't mentioned, but not surprised, nor do I find it discouraging.

Yeah, it's interesting to me that Ran would centre the controversy on Sansa's sexuality not being focused on Sandor in this chapter, when the "natural" manifestations of her sexuality - not the one being orchestrated and managed by LF - have primarily revolved around her attraction to the Hound. In light of that, I think the fact that he's not mentioned is quite appropriate, whilst Martin retains suggestive teases in her last line to Harry, and this chapter being one that is clearly setting the stage for a major turn in events.

Great to see PtP here again, and to have some new Sansa material to discuss :)

This was obviously a development chapter, but upon re-read there are (as ever) many small details worthy of note. Sweetrobin seems a bit more aware as Milady noted, and Alayne seems to not accept it as a given that he's going to die, something I found interesting in light of Petyr's sentiments in the final Alayne chapter in Feast. Myranda remains an enigma-- from her interest in Harry to her bizarre comments about Lyn Corbray, I remain convinced she's one to keep our eyes upon. And asking Alayne about her father's (ahem) "little finger" for the second time just screams "I know he's not your father!"

Yeah, that's significant, or at least she doesn't seem to have realised any nefarious plans might be afoot. SR is really back in classic SR mode after that courageous crossing leaving the Eyrie but he's got a lot of spunk in him left :)

[DogLover]

It was the chapter, and Elio explained the controversy, though it was not a big deal and he never said it was but rather the opposite, it was some bad reporting from other sources that made it seem like a major controversy.

Yes, I know. As I said, I initially assumed it was a different chapter until I read Lady Gwyn's post in WoW which stated that this is indeed the very chapter.

[Colonel Green]

Sweetrobin and his unheard of awareness of what people expect of him

Between this chapter and "Mercy", I think it's become clear that GRRM is going to be writing around the younger kids' ages as much as possible, as if the five-year-gap he had been counting on had actually happened. The transition was particularly jarring with Robert, who is suddenly talking about marrying Alayne, or, failing that, that she should be his mistress, whereas in AFFC Alayne II he was somewhat possessive, but he talked about her as his friend. He's also gained enormous awareness that people are expecting him to die, which he never demonstrated before.

Arya was actively using sex as a weapon in "Mercy", and while the change with Sansa here is obviously nowhere near as dramatic, both because she had been shown engaging in flirtation before and because she, y'know, doesn't lead a guy on in order to slice him open, it's still there compared to be where we left her at the end of AFFC.

Expect the next Bran chapter to involve him shaving and revealing that his balls have dropped.

[Milady of York]

Between this chapter and "Mercy", I think it's become clear that GRRM is going to be writing around the younger kids' ages as much as possible, as if the five-year-gap he had been counting on had actually happened. The transition was particularly jarring with Robert, who is suddenly talking about marrying Alayne, or, failing that, that she should be his mistress, whereas in AFFC Alayne II he was somewhat possessive, but he talked about her as his friend. He's also gained enormous awareness that people are expecting him to die, which he never demonstrated before.

Arya was actively using sex as a weapon in "Mercy", and while the change with Sansa here is obviously nowhere near as dramatic, both because she had been shown engaging in flirtation before and because she, y'know, doesn't lead a guy on in order to slice him open, it's still there compared to be where we left her at the end of AFFC.

Expect the next Bran chapter to involve him shaving and revealing that his balls have dropped.

. . . and declaring he wants to marry Meera, I bet.

Seriously now, I agree with you that Robert's sudden display of awareness that people want him dead is surprising, and seemingly out of nowhere. And in trying to puzzle out how this might have happened, it occurred to me that perhaps Lysa told him. He's always been sickly, and it doesn't appear to have been a secret in the Vale that he was too frail to live for long, and Harry seems to have been known as the Heir for long before, so when Lysa fled to the Eyrie and was surrounded there by suitors by the dozen, it's possible that it was then that she indoctrinated her son about the bad men who wanted to rob him of his castle, take him away from her elsewhere, etc. But then, there's been a while since Sansa's last chapter in AFFC until this one, so Sweetrobin could've either heard it from herself, as Sansa at one point when Myranda complains about her stealing Harry says that she's talked about "a hundred times" about that, so in one of those occasions he might have heard and made enquiries, finding out who Harry is, and in his mix of possessiveness and jealousy, concluded he'd steal Alayne from him, the only way he can prevent it would be marrying her.

That, of course, is a rationalisation of how he came to be so aware. Your point on Martin working round the children's ages sounds possible in my opinion, too.

[Colonel Green]

I thought the same thing regarding Lysa's possible influence. Drilling it into his head that his cousin is grasping and wants to see him dead is the sort of thing she'd do -- she's been paranoid about people on far less reasonable grounds (Harry seems like a bit of a cad, which isn't enough to conclude he's the sort who'll wish a child dead, but it would be impossible for him not to be aware that he is presently a minor member of third-tier noble house and that if Robert were to die he would instantly become one of the richest and most powerful men on the continent).

[brashcandy]

I think Robin being more vocal in wanting to marry Alayne is actually a believable development if we recall this is the same sickly boy who wanted to convince her to stay with him in the Eyrie and "kiss and play games." He's been possessive of the friendship because he has a crush, and she's become the closest thing to a maternal figure in his life after Lysa's death. What I found a little bit off was Mya acting so bewildered around him. She's come across as much more composed and stern before, although I suppose Martin wants us to believe she's preoccupied with the presence of Mychel Redfort. And if Mychel were to win wings, as Sansa says he's favoured to do, Mya would have to see a lot more of him than usual.