[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[Raksha 2014]

How exciting with a brand new chapter to analyze! Did anyone else notice the paralells between sweetrobin and the mad king, starting with not letting anybody cut their hair? Don't know if it has been brought up (this is a long thread), but I made a separate thread about it:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127114-[WOW-SPOILERS]-Paralells-between-Aerys-Targaryen-and-Robert-Arryn

The problem with this comparison is that Robert is a young child, his character still forming; also a child who has lost both his father and his over-protective mother. Aerys was a grown, mature man when his eccentricities became full-fledged paranoia and craziness. Most of little Robert's problems can be traced to two external sources - his epilepsy and his mother's influence. Lysa is gone. If the boy's illness could be better managed (albeit a big if) and his guardianship given to someone who actually does, unlike Littlefinger, have Robert Arryn's best interests at heart, he could grow up to be an intelligent and influential lord.

Aerys' emotional maladies might have been exacerbated by his captivity and torment in Duskendale; but some of it may have had genetic causes; given the generations of Targaryen inbreeding.

Robert Arryn's refusal to let his hair be cut comes from childish fears exacerbated by his mother's over-protectiveness and spoiling influence, not from a troubling disregard for personal hygiene (such as allowing his fingernails to grow over-long as did the middle-aged Aerys). If he didn't tend to have seizures when upset, no one would have let even a little lord get away with such foolishness for very long. Robert still has a chance, though not a strong chance, to grow up to be a sane man.

[pogo]

Merchants aren't nobly born, but they are clearly not peasants.

A number of nobility have married merchants or merchants daughters.

None would consider marrying a peasant.

The correct description for Harry the Horrible would be a cad

Ramsey is a monster, Harry is a cad

[Red Raven]

As for the opportunistic food hoarding, I'd expect nothing less of Littlefinger. It would be fun if Sansa used it, not to feed everyone and win good PR among the smallfolk, but for her to use it for negotiation to get something she wants. I like the spark of craftiness I'm seeing from her.

I also like that Robin isn't just a sickly rube, he knows what's going on. His suspicion is borne out of jealousy, but he's aware all the same. Makes him a more interesting character.

[Fire Eater]

Okay, HtH is a douche. Aside from the way he first treats Sansa despite having fathered two bastards himself, from what he says about his first baby mama Cissy, describing her as "fat as a cow" I think shows he is pretty shitty to the women he is involved with. I honestly think he will try to get between Alayne's legs.

It was amusing to see Lyn Corbray angry at the news he is going to be an uncle.

Lyonel sends his regrets. He remains at Heart’s Home with his peddler’s daughter, watching her belly swell as if he were the first man who ever got a wench pregnant.

For some reason, I find that to be sweet.

I like seeing Sansa development showing how much she has grown in terms of wit and manipulation. Robert Arryn seems to really care for her, and if anything happens to her, I can see him doing anything to protect her.

[Lee-Sensei]

Okay, HtH is a douche. Aside from the way he first treats Sansa despite having fathered two bastards himself, from what he says about his first baby mama Cissy, describing her as "fat as a cow" I think shows he is pretty shitty to the women he is involved with. I honestly think he will try to get between Alayne's legs.

It was amusing to see Lyn Corbray angry at the news he is going to be an uncle.

Lyonel sends his regrets. He remains at Heart’s Home with his peddler’s daughter, watching her belly swell as if he were the first man who ever got a wench pregnant.

For some reason, I find that to be sweet.

I like seeing Sansa development showing how much she has grown in terms of wit and manipulation. Robert Arryn seems to really care for her, and if anything happens to her, I can see him doing anything to protect her.

If Ned brought a bastard to Winterfell and arranged for him to marry Sansa in AGOT, how do you think she'd act?

[TheReal_Rebel]

moved

[Raksha 2014]

If Ned brought a bastard to Winterfell and arranged for him to marry Sansa in AGOT, how do you think she'd act?

That would depend to some extent on how Catelyn reacted. And if said bastard was endowed with some land and coin and good looks and manners, and Ned put his foot down and insisted on the marriage, Sansa would find the positive aspects of the match and put up with it, maybe even come to like it. It's not as if said bastard was a physically hideous dwarf whose nephew, sister and father had wiped out her family and held her captive...

[TheReal_Rebel]

Not sure what was controversial about that chapter, but after thinking about it I feel certain that Sweetrobin is indeed LF's biological son.

Sweetrobin's description from the wiki: Robert is a sickly, whiny, and spoilt child of six. He is small and pale with brown hair and big eyes. His hair later grows very long.

Lysa's description from the wiki: Lysa is thick of body, pale and puffy of face. She has the blue eyes of the Tullys and a small, petulant mouth. She has long, thick, auburn hair.

LF's description from the wiki: A short man of slender build, with sharp features, Petyr has gray-green eyes, a small pointed beard on his chin, and threads of grey running throughout his dark hair.

HtH's description from the chapter: Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose.

Sansa playing with Sweetrobin's hair early in the chapter than the later description of HtH has convinced me LF is indeed Sweetrobin's father. I don't see how a man that looked like HtH and a woman that looked like Lysa produced a child that looked like Sweetrobin. I'm not really sure if it means anything though. Funny, I hadn't given this much thought before reading this chapter.

You make a decent case from the books alone.

But if you take into consideration real world biology where we now know that men over 40 are less likely to produce the healthiest children as this and other articles explain http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/children-with-older-dads-at-greater-mental-illness-risk/

The more likely explanation is that Jon was much older than Lysa, and simply produced a less physically robust son.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Great catch! Another Sansa bat reference.

The eight Winged Knights hit me as well. That's 8 winged knights plus THE Winged Knight, Ser Sweetrobin, which equals 9. Nine winged companions. Like the sigil of House Whent.

Nice catch!

Sansa is clearly beguiling HtH, and she's going to remember how dangerous Corbray is, the question is what she will do, other than warn HtH.

I can see jealous Young Robin doing something to assist in HtH's demise

[Fire Eater]

If Ned brought a bastard to Winterfell and arranged for him to marry Sansa in AGOT, how do you think she'd act?

Except Sansa never had any bastards while Harry does which makes the whole thing hypocritical.

[Pod The Impaler]

Yeah, I mentioned earlier, GRRM having his very first words be rude towards a fan favourite character is intended to create an immediate reaction. Generally speaking he does that for a reason. If the reason is 'Harry is Horrible' he usually goes about it differently, though there's no hard and fast rule.

Well, true, but while I think it shows Harry as being arrogant and shallow, I don't think Harry is up there in "monster" category, just from this. More like the highborn attitude towards others of lesser station - disdainful of their worth, dismissive of their feelings, disinterested in their troubles. What we hear Harry say is not any different than we've heard from at least a score of other nobles already. Harry just said it to Sansa, so yes, it highlights that the guy's perhaps a jerk.

Robert Baratheon was also cavalier about the women he bedded, making bastards then losing interest. (Does this mean Sansa will run parallel to Lyanna's dismay at her betrothed? Some think so.)

Loras Tyrell was comely, skilled at arms, popular ... and both arrogant and vain.

Sansa herself has been no less arrogant / rude at times, before her father's downfall.

Many people mention "Ned is not that honorable since he has a bastard" so you can clearly see how it is considered some kind of a taboo, although, as most people in Westeros tend to break taboos, it is being done anyway. ... Both Cersei and Catleyn would prefer Harry's actions over Neds', or Roberts' intentions of bringing his bastard to the capital.

Quite true. Eddard and Oberyn are exceptions to the rule - their bastards are treated as no less than their own blood.

On a very minor note, there's been some occasional discussion in the forums about whether Harry, if he inherited the Eyrie, would be required or expected to take the Arryn name, or if he would keep the Hardyng surname.

In this chapter, we find that he has quartered his shield and reduced the Hardyng family arms to a mere 1/4, with the Arryn falcon taking up half the space and the Waynwood wheel the other 1/4. I think we can conclude he is eager to take the Arryn surname.

Yup. It's a pretty bold announcement of ambition. If Robert Arryn were a grown-up lord with all his mental faculties, not a sickly child, I think more people in the Vale would take that to mean Harry's got some bad intentions.

Except Sansa never had any bastards while Harry does which makes the whole thing hypocritical.

Well, being a hypocrite might be one more thing that Harry is. Again, he would not be the only nobleman in Westeros who is one.

[Raksha 2014]

Except Sansa never had any bastards while Harry does which makes the whole thing hypocritical.

Also, Sansa was 11 years old in AGOT, and Harry is what, 16 or 17 - one can expect a sheltered 11-year-old to be more petulant and rude about the prospect of being married to a bastard than a young man of legal age in Westeros. And in the teenage years, there's a tremendous maturity gap between 11 and 16.

[Mithras]

I am happy to be proven right about the tapestries as I discussed starting from here. In short, LF used those tapestries to show that he has the full support of the IT at his back. Recall that the Lannister-Tyrell alliance seemed the undisputed winners of the Wot5K and the Lords Declarant could not defy the IT back then. This idea is further supported with Nestor telling everyone that those tapestries belonged to Bobby.

I am also happy to see that my theories about LF’s endgame are proving to be right. Here I discussed that LF actually wants to kill both SR and Harry so that there would be no immediate heirs to the Vale and the strong IT will decide who will inherit the seat of Arryn. Of course LF is the only Lord the IT will likely to award. (but of course recent developments will prevent these schemes coming to fruition.)

The first confirmation of this theory came with the revelation of George’s early draft.

Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

LF definitely sprouted from this early, evil Jaime Lannister. LF achieved the most important tasks in the downfall of the Starks. Moreover, LF implicated Tyrion for Joffrey’s murder. LF is currently killing his way to some seat or even a throne.

Now with this chapter, I have absolutely no doubt that LF will make some arrangements to have Harry slain in that melee, though I am not sure who will be the culprit. Lyn Corbray seems like the strongest candidate to slay Harry, though Lothor or Shadrich or another person might surprise us all. That fight of Lyn and the oaf reminded me of the death of Baelor Breakspear along with “Cersei’s” plan to have Bobby participate in a melee which he was not supposed to survive. I put quotation marks to Cersei because I think that was actually LF’s plan. This must be a similar case to “Joffrey’s” decision to execute Ned or “Mace’s” decision to wed Marg to Joffrey and let Loras to join the KG.

The list of the participants at LF's desk might give a clue of a manipulation of the matches, which we we know to exist since the Hedge Knight and the Mystery Knight.

In addition to these connections, Randa japed about whether Lyn could kill her suitors in the tourney if he is paid enough.

“… but some demon of mischief [i.e. LF] was in her that morning, so she gave Ser Lyn a thrust of her own.”

This person called Alayne is a construct of LF. She talks, acts and thinks exactly like LF wants her to do. Just like Arya was hearing Syrio’s teachings like his ghost speaking to her (look with your eyes, still as a stone etc.) long after he died, here we see that Sansa is being possessed by LF in a similar fashion and she also hears his orders at her heart (Charm him. Entrance him. Bewitch him). I don’t take this as a character development or improvement. If I was a Sansa fan, I would not be happy with her transforming into LF with teats (which by the way she is far from being). She cannot see LF’s real machinations.

We see once again how easily Alayne repeated the lies about Marillion murdering Lysa. This time she did not even think that she was lying. She spoke like a robot. And her jape about Cinnamon and Cloves was a very bad one. Petyr will no doubt howl to that jape as Alayne thinks but not because it is a good jape. The real reason is that LF has a boner for Sansa and this time he showed it to everyone by “a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance”. The unavoidable finale is getting closer as I discussed here.

This brings me to the Mad Mouse. I think Shadrich was a promising mice of Varys back in the day and now he became one of his top class agents. The talk about “winged mices” along with the opening of LF’s window with his papers all over the floor makes me think that Shadrich climbed to LF’s window and spied on his papers. Those papers are probably very important because Oswell came from Gulltown the night before and he probably brought important letters/documents with him. Recall that Alayne was expecting that LF and Oswell would still be at his solar. Moreover, since Sansa closed the window and cleaned the mess, LF will not suspect that his secrets were stolen.

During the feast, “the fire shining in Sansa’s hair” made her hair look reddish and that will remove any doubt of Shadrich if he still has. He probably had a good look at Sansa at the court while he was bending knee to Joffrey after the Battle of Blackwater. In addition, Alayne danced a lot, contrary to what she was thinking back in the Eyrie (Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . .)

In short, Shadrich definitely knows who Alayne really is and he knows a good deal of LF’s plans.

Randa again asked the size of Littlefinger’s “little finger”. We should ask why she keeps doing that. Randa should have guessed the real identity of Alayne thanks to her slips in AFfC. But there are things she cannot still understand. What is the true nature of the relationship between LF and Sansa? Are they a couple similar to Bonnie and Clyde?

Therefore, Randa is looking for a slip of Sansa about the size of Littlefinger’s little finger. If one day Alayne replies like “Size does not matter ;)”, Randa will be sure that Sansa and LF are lovers and partners in crime.

Sweetrobin will definitely survive and become one of the strongest Lords in the Realm.

In conclusion, everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Here is a bonus crackpot:

“Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long coal-black hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of gold and black with a crowned stag emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Mya . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Westeros. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

With only a few changes, this looks intriguing, don’t you think? And this would not be the first time Sansa was fooled this way. She thought she was going to marry Willas but she got Tyrion. The bastard daughter of a king is a valuable piece, especially at such times.

[Mithras]

Oh I forgot to talk about the food. LF means to make an artificial food crisis, at least in the Vale. This is far from being only for financial gain. Recall that the Tyrells did the same. They created food shortage in the capitol but once they opened the Rose Road again the food flocked to the capitol, the people loved them for feeding them. The fools did not even remember that it was the Tyrells who forced them to starvation in the first place.

Illyrio is a merchant like LF and he also means to make a food shortage.

“There is no peace in Westeros, no justice, no faith … and soon enough, no food. When men are starving and sick of fear, they look for a savior.”

I think we might see Varys and his agents sabotaging granaries to force people to rise against their Lords and join fAegon, the bringer of food.

[HexMachina]

Two words spring to mind.

Confirmation. Bias.

[Lee-Sensei]

Also, Sansa was 11 years old in AGOT, and Harry is what, 16 or 17 - one can expect a sheltered 11-year-old to be more petulant and rude about the prospect of being married to a bastard than a young man of legal age in Westeros. And in the teenage years, there's a tremendous maturity gap between 11 and 16.

Almost any highborn noble would be angry about being marriedoff to a bastard. Heck. Even Edmure had a tantrum when Walder Frey sent his bastard to treat with them and he's oneof the nicest nobles in the series.

[Raksha 2014]

Almost any highborn noble would be angry about being marriedoff to a bastard. Heck. Even Edmure had a tantrum when Walder Frey sent his bastard to treat with them and he's oneof the nicest nobles in the series.

But not all highborn nobles would throw that anger back in the bastard's face with an insult when they first meet, particularly if said bastard is a 14 or 15 year old girl. Harry behaved poorly to Alayne; not like a monster, but like a rude, spoiled young man. The proper behavior would have been, given Harry's understandable reluctance to ally with Littlefinger via a marriage to his bastard daughter, for Harry to have been at the very least coolly polite to the girl, or even pleasant but impersonal.

[Lee-Sensei]

But not all highborn nobles would throw that anger back in the bastard's face with an insult when they first meet, particularly if said bastard is a 14 or 15 year old girl. Harry behaved poorly to Alayne; not like a monster, but like a rude, spoiled young man. The proper behavior would have been, given Harry's understandable reluctance to ally with Littlefinger via a marriage to his bastard daughter, for Harry to have been at the very least coolly polite to the girl, or even pleasant but impersonal.

Not necessarily. Besides, Yohn Royce has warned him about LF. So it makes sense that he'd brush her off the way he did.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Is it just me or is George getting lazier with names? There wasn't anything original here, and heals of repeated names. Is that signyfying the eliteness and tightness of the Vale? But so many Jon's and Bens and similar.

The new houses though... Lipps is worst name.

[Mithras]

Two words spring to mind.

Confirmation. Bias.

You should visit this thread to see what confirmation bias really is.