[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[Ghosts Lunch]

He never mentioned Obara's mom. That was Obara herself that showed no remorse.

Why should he have shown her particular affection? She was a whore he'd paid to lose his virginity.

And on that note, he had every right to take HIS child out of the whorehouse, where in time she'd have taken up that trade, and take her to Sunspear where she could be raised practically as a princess.

Yeah Oberyn found out he had a Bastard and took responsibility, in that case he threw down a Spear and gave Obara the choice

It's a mix of Oberyn coming back + Obara making her choice that drove Obara Mom to tears etc even then as mentioned we are hearing it from Obara POV so is obviously quite subjective

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Anyone speculated who the Winged Knights will be? (Didn't read V1, too long).

I'm putting money on of course Harrold, for proximity to LF, and also Mychel Redfort, thus robbing Yohn Royce of a son in law, and Ysilla Royce of a child, plus corraling the Redforts.

One of the Sunderlands? I wouldn't trust them (the Davos on Sweetsister chapter felt like a waste of time for me, but clearly we shouldn't trust Sistermen, and especially not poor sistermen (one who also betrayed Mormont)).

Roland Waynwood, Edmund Breakstone, Lymond Lynderly? Noticeably many of these knights here do not belong to Lords Declarent, so that limits LF's influence, but since he has diminished them quite well, Mychel Redfort and Harrold Hardyng puts Yohn in a spot of bother.

I also expect Lyn Corbray, as either a LF hater, or a LF hater in disguise.

And Howland Reed as the Mad Mouse? Really? Maybe if he wore a wolf surcoat (HOWLand)...

UTHER SHETT X DICKON MANWOODY OTP

[Ghosts Lunch]

So what? Will he change his heart's desire?

Besides, the Vale is clearly behind the recent developments. Cersei was imprisoned not long after they descended from Eyrie but even after a month passed they sent ravens for the Tourney, no one seems to know the imprisonment of Cersei or the Walk. Perhaps Oswell brought the news all together including Kevan's assassination.

Gulltown is not the only port in the Vale. It is plainly stated in this chapter that Yohn has his own ports and he can sell his food there no thanks to LF. What LF is doing is to drive the merchants to Yohn's ports and trick him to sell his food with inflated prices. We have seen two examples (Tyrells, Illyrio) that playing with the food supply is done for Game of Thrones, not for financial gain.

Exactly, look at Revolution slogans, always start with Bread which any simple person understands and then some concept only the Middle Class upwards care about, indeed often revolutionaries utillise popular discontent to their own ends

Only have to look at the riot with Joffrey, some have pointed out it may have been manipulated which is perhaps true, but there's a reason the provocations caught fire, went critical and ended in a full blown riot with High Septons etc getting lynched as opposed to petering out

It's when people are starving that there is real momentum for fundamental change, the people don't care who is cloaked in power or the intracacies of lineage when they are starving (or under severe financial hardship) which is something Ser Jorah points out very early on, smallfolk don't care so much at the end of the day they just want rain and good harvests and a full belly.

There are some exceptions obviously, Starks have a history of the Winter City for people to occupy in Winterfell and Edmure may have been a little bit of a bungling fool in some respects (I think Mill criticism is excessive and even a little unfair though) compared to Blackfish for example but it was his housing of the smallfolk that may just save House Tully and allow them back into power later on so I'm looking forward to the prologue. The show touched on this with the farmer the Hound robs but in the short term this may be helpful to Sansa and Littlefinger, smallfolk will not like LF at Harrenhall but they'll be receptive to Sansa.

On the other side we have the people who were locked out of the Fort at Saltpans, and their criticism being aimed not so much at the attackers but at the people in the Fort...

Littlefinger is selling it as a financial gain but really the pressure is about Game of Thrones, or rather being able to commit these resources to any new IT claimant taking power in KL to protect his position at LP in the interim so it is defensive as much as offensive (Burgeoise/merchant revolutionary)

I think the High Sparrow is his own creature though, religious revolutionaries imposing a highly repressive dogmatic code make sense in such an enviroment. Indeed the rumoured confrontation conversation between LF and Lancel in the show may be aimed at dispelling these theories that HS = LF pawn or being directed from the Vale a bit like Talisa being stabbed in the belly to disprove Jeyne Westerling pregnancy theories

[Ghosts Lunch]

As for Lyn Corbray, I expect he really does hate LF now that he has been presumably dispossed of his perceived heritage, the match of old man Corbray to a merchants daughter increases the suspicion in my mind his endgame revolves around Burgeoise revolution

Not to mention the irony of the Braavosi being against traditional slavery and descended from slaves only to be going about effectively binding people to debt servitude upon pain of death or being unseated from power in favour of another candidate

^^^^ This is good though as it is an example of the books very cleverly exploring the realities of power, it is only ever transferred or flipped from one class to another as BB versus SoH in Mereen and BK in Astapor show

[HexMachina]

They probably do, but it was probably easier just to dig it up from his own computer rather than asking the publishers?

I did wonder if that was the case, yes. I'm not sure how his "minions" upload it to his website tbh

[clair de lune]

I notice a distinct lack of Vale Freys in this chapter, and since they are the squires etc that's troubling. They're there to annoy Sansa, so why aren't they?

Sandor Frey and his sister are both wards of House Waynwood; Sandor is also a squire of one of the Waynwood men, I believe. They possibly arrived with Lady Waynwood's party but weren't of note or worth mentioning at this point.

Quick off-topic note: I'm currently playing as Yohn Royce in an ASOIAF RPG on another forum, part of this RPG's participation is that we write POV chapters for our characters so I have done a lot of research on the houses of the Vale. This chapter, meeting Harrold Hardyng, and the new characters I can use all made me feel like a kid in a candy shop. :D

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Sandor Frey and his sister are both wards of House Waynwood; Sandor is also a squire of one of the Waynwood men, I believe. They possibly arrived with Lady Waynwood's party but weren't of note or worth mentioning at this point.

Quick off-topic note: I'm currently playing as Yohn Royce in an ASOIAF RPG on another forum, part of this RPG's participation is that we write POV chapters for our characters so I have done a lot of research on the houses of the Vale. This chapter, meeting Harrold Hardyng, and the new characters I can use all made me feel like a kid in a candy shop. :D

Sandor Frey is squire to Donnel Waynwood, who is the Knight of the Bloody Gate. So he wouldn't be present. But since the Frey's are so numerous in the Vale I'd expect that some show up here, and it causes Sansa some angst. She laments over Jeyne Poole and her father, so it seems like that would be a natural progression.

I'd expect Donnel to be present, since his family is and he's close to the Eyrie. It seems only natural that he appears.

Cynthea Frey is Anya's ward, and she isn't mentioned as being with the main group, but there is a 20 strong group of riders, so Cynthea could be there.

Maester Willamen is sworn to the Hunter's who aren't mentioned as present. I think they'll arrive. I know three is not many, but there close relationship to Waynwood's sends of alarm bells to me.

So many new names, who some are inconsequential, but whatever, it's cool. The names are pretty dull though.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I can't help but notice that every man who isn't competing gets a steel dagger. This will surely make things more confusing if someone is murdered, and it makes it easy to frame if there is a dagger missing from Lord XYZ's collection.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Also, new house, House Breakstone.
Alayne Stone. Breakstone.
Sansa will be revealed for sure. Yohn Royce shows up? His vassals are in there already.

[Hos the Hostage]

Words of house Royce are "We remember". They'd better remember that winter is coming and they can't eat silver.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Seeing Sansa being so cooperative with LF plans, which is to be expected, I wonder what it would take for her to turn against him. Which again, I expect.

So far, LF killed Marillon and Lysa, with Sansa lying about them, and for those two Sansa had a sense of self preservation and both moved against her, one trying to rape her, the other to kill her, maybe the fate of Harry or later SR, if either dies, could play a role in this, though perhaps not a decisive one, I don't expect a complete turn too early and it would take some other things as well.

In Harry's case there is also the issue that he didn't trust LF to begin with and Sansa would be spending more time with him.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Seeing Sansa being so cooperative with LF plans, which is to be expected, I wonder what it would take for her to turn against him. Which again, I expect.

So far, LF killed Marillon and Lysa, with Sansa lying about them, and for those two Sansa had a sense of self preservation and both moved against her, one trying to rape her, the other to kill her, maybe the fate of Harry or later SR, if either dies, could play a role in this, though perhaps not a decisive one, I don't expect a complete turn too early and it would take some other things as well.

In Harry's case there is also the issue that he didn't trust LF to begin with and Sansa would be spending more time with him.

I could only see Sansa turning against LF for personal reasons (eg. she finds out LF betrayed Ned), rather than political ones. Although Sansa is playing along with LF's schemes, I don't see anything to suggest that power or being a player is something she wants.

[Mithras]

She also uses the term 'father' internally now when thinking about LF with no hesitation. I know many people wanted to see her becoming more independant, but my sense is that she has gone much more in the other direction.

She was doing that even in AFfC.

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

His is the voice in her head now, and it's not even a conscious thing anymore.

“I’ve angered you, my lady. That was never my intent.” He [Petyr] looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had.

“Is it?” There was mischief in Littlefinger’s eyes.

“I thought not. You’re a dangerous little man, Lannister. Yes, I could sing this song to Lysa.” Again the sly smile, the mischief in his glance.

“Oh, I do,” said Littlefinger, “I have it here between my legs.” There was mischief in his grey-green eyes.

There is truth in that, Alayne thought, but some demon of mischief was in her that morning, so she gave Ser Lyn a thrust of her own.

[ForeverLost]

Some thoughts after reading chapter:

Sansa seems to be totally ok with Littlefinger. She probably understand he is a dangerous man, but she starts to admire him and is flattered by his attention. She is not thinking about him that way YET, but to me it seems more than likely that she may have crush on him. Was it real life, i would be almost sure it would happen, in the story... who knows.

Other thing - if Sansa really falls for LF or at least starts to see him as a friend - what effect it will leave on LF? As whe know he is not an evil monster from get go (like Joff, Ramsey or Mountain). Real feelings or friendship from other human being (especially Cat' s daughter) is something he has not experienced in many many years (mostly it was his own fault though). Would it somehow affect LF?

Unfortunately, even if things go this way, LF will meet The Maker as soon as Sansa learns what role LF played in Ned' s destiny.

[Mithras]

Unfortunately, even if things go this way, LF will meet The Maker as soon as Sansa learns what role LF played in Ned' s destiny.

Sansa already heard this:

“Have you been at the wine again? You ought not to talk so much. We don’t want Alayne to know more than she should, do we? Or Marillion?”

…

“I know, love.” He took another step. “And I am here. All you need to do is take my hand, come on.” He held it out to her. “There’s no cause for all these tears.”

“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tears . . . but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever . . . “

And Sansa has no leverage to use against LF. The closest person to her (Randa) thinks that she and LF are Bonnie & Clyde. She missed her chance to tell the truth to the Lords Declarant. None of them can trust her at this point if she turns upon LF.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I could only see Sansa turning against LF for personal reasons (eg. she finds out LF betrayed Ned), rather than political ones. Although Sansa is playing along with LF's schemes, I don't see anything to suggest that power or being a player is something she wants.

Yeah, learning about Ned is what would completely turn Sansa.

If Harry is killed, and she assumes that LF was behind it, how do you think that will affect her?

[Le Cygne]

It's always about Sansan with you, isn't it?

It's always not about SanSan with you, isn't it?

I wish that Sansa didn't play along with Littlefinger's by-the-numbers rules for flirting so much that she repeats the advice exactly. What else will Littlefinger require of her that she might repeat exactly?

I agree with all of your points, and this is what I think he's hinting in this chapter, the Jeyne and Sansa parallels (I posted some common wording upthread).

She's even repeating what LF said about Harry (his dimples) as he touches Harry's face, just like LF told her to do. And I do think we are meant to be concerned.

I could only see Sansa turning against LF for personal reasons (eg. she finds out LF betrayed Ned), rather than political ones. Although Sansa is playing along with LF's schemes, I don't see anything to suggest that power or being a player is something she wants.

I think he is calling back to the first book pretty heavily in this chapter, what happened with her father and Jeyne. And that's got a lot to do with LF.

But also seems like conflict is about to happen to shake things up. So hopefully this will move her to some sort of reckoning and resolution.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Words of house Royce are "We remember". They'd better remember that winter is coming and they can't eat silver.

I think that's a lesson LF will have to learn sharply

[Lady Winter Rose]

I was surprised the way Sansa thought 'he doesn't have to love, me only like me, that would be enough'. It sounded as if Sansa herself, and not just LF is desperate to get the betorthal working. The last time we saw Alayne, she wasn't that eager to get married, to anyone.

I never get impression Alayne doesn't want to marry. I read Feast and all her remarks mean she can't get married since she is already married and as long Tyrion is alive, she would be in bigamy. But as I understand, she can be married to one man, betrothed to another, and wait for her first husband to die so she can marry her betrothed. I think some notable ladies in medieval times did that.

[Mithras]

BTW, the formation of the KG was Visenya's idea and she too organized a large tourney to select the first members, one of which was Robin Darklyn known as Darkrobin :D