[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[juanml82]

Well, murdering the Hand of the King, who was like a father to Ned, and blaming the Lannisters for it falsely to the Starks is in itself a very vile thing, even if she ignores the Lannister-Stark war that followed.

Sure, but do you think Sansa, at this point, will be shocked by Lysa killing her husband? At this point, I think Myranda could tell her she indeed killed her husband (which is a possibility) and Sansa will remain her friend.

The stuff with Harry is interesting and although Sansa is playing along with Littlefinger's schemes, her inner monologue consistently places the emphasis on Harry needing to like her, she offers us nothing on her thoughts about her needing to like him. She is not doing this for her, she is not acting as a free agent, LF is still ultimately pulling the strings and for the time being she is playing along.

We don't know. We aren't privy to her motivations. A marriage with Harry followed by Robert's death allows her to get outside of LF's grasp. She may have realized that and is doing what LF told her to do so she's in a position to turn against him. By AFFC she didn't want to get married and thought she'd leave LF if she had somewhere else to go. While her relationship with LF has evolved through the books, we don't know if she had reconsidered both premises or not.

[Harry the Hair]

It is about howling with laughter and the fact that LF laughs so much to Alayne's such bad humour tells us something.

And his smile never reaches his eyes, he is a mockingbird after all.

[Gala]

Many people mention "Ned is not that honorable since he has a bastard" so you can clearly see how it is considered some kind of a taboo, although, as most people in Westeros tend to break taboos, it is being done anyway, From Catelyns POV we can see she doesn't feel dishonored as a women at all by Ned having a bastard (she kinda expected it), the only thing she considers being dishornoring is that Ned takes him to Winterfell. So no, it's not about them having emathy with the women, as is hinted by statements of the women involved. Both Cersei and Catleyn would prefer Harry's actions over Neds', or Roberts' intentions of bringing his bastard to the capital.

That argument backfired.

Funny that Ned still is considered one of the most honourable in the realm. Many of highly cunning and smart characters did respect him, as well as some "righteous" characters: Tyrion, Olenna, Varys...Barristan, Stannis. Some, like Jaime and Cersei, mocked his honour, just because they don't have any at all. LF hated him and used Ned's honourable features against him, as did Cersei.

I do agree that Ned decision to bring Jon to Winterfell to raise him by his side is not a rule, but rather a breaking of some social rule (we are not talking about Dorn here, but most of the Westeros).

ETA: I was happy to see Sansa remembering her real family...father and Arya.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I see a lot of disappointment that Sansa is so controlled by LF - I don't know what else anyone was expecting. She really does not have anywhere else to go nor anyone else who she can depend on, as she reflects to herself at the end of ASOS. She thinks that Bronze Yohn never went to Robb's aid - she does not know, nor has any way of knowing, that Lysa prevented him from doing that. As far as Sansa knows, her family is all dead, or alive but captive and powerless. She is wanted for regicide by the current regime - and she has no way of knowing that Cersei has been imprisoned. There is so much that we readers know that Sansa does not. In any event, it's hard to blame a teenage girl with no surviving friends or family (as far as she knows) who is wanted for a crime she hasn't committed, for staying with "the devil she knows." What other choice does she have, realistically?

[Harry the Hair]

I see a lot of disappointment that Sansa is so controlled by LF

A lot of people forget that pretty much everyone that was exposed to LF is controlled by him; never mind a 13 year old girl that has no where to go and, as far as she knows, no family left to take care of her.

[Cryler]

If the Mad Mouse attempts to smuggle Sansa out of the Vale there are the mountain clans who her lord husband had united once before. Could there be any story potential there?

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

[Cryler]

Double post

[Harry the Hair]

If the Mad Mouse attempts to smuggle Sansa out of the Vale there are the mountain clans who her lord husband had united once before. Could there be any story potential there?

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

Depends who'll get his hands on her. If it's Timett she might try to seduce him and push him for a peace treaty with the Vale, if it's Chella she might keep her around to sell to Tyrion, if it's Shagga... who knows...

There is also Harry's aunt that got kidnapped by the burned men, I think there is some story potential here.

[Colonel Green]

If the Mad Mouse attempts to smuggle Sansa out of the Vale there are the mountain clans who her lord husband had united once before. Could there be any story potential there?

I tend to doubt that.

[Harry the Hair]

I tend to doubt that.

I think he'll try to kidnap her, but fail miserably. In her recent chapter he appeared to be stalking her and sneaking around the castle grounds, it looks like he's trying to learn her daily routine.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

There is also Harry's aunt that got kidnapped by the burned men, I think there is some story potential here.

I wonder if she was Timmett's mother. If that is true, then Timmett is the real heir to the Vale after Robin Arryn. That was all part of the huge genealogy infodump that LF told Sansa - it may be that, if she comes into contact with the Burned Men somehow, Sansa is in a position to tell Timmett that. Whether Timmett cares is another matter altogether.

As far as Shadrich is concerned - he's motivated by money, not some fanatic loyalty to Cersei or the Crown, so, if he kidnaps Sansa, we don't know what the result will be or who he will ransom her to. For all we know he will ransom her back to LF, especially as Cersei doesn't appear to have a ton of funds right now, the Tyrells have far bigger fish to fry, and so do the Casterly Rock contingent of Lannisters.

[Lord Varys]

There is snow in the passes. The clansmen might eventually come down as they are prone to do in bad winters but Shadrich or anyone else would be completely stupid to go there. Not to mention that no one wants to read 3-4 Sansa chapters in TWoW about a daring escape/abduction and yet another journey.

Let Sansa and her daddy play. I'd also not be surprised if Shadrich did nothing for the time being. If he is smart then he knows that he cannot take Sansa to KL, and as soon as the news about the situation in KL reach the Vale his motivation should change anyway. We don't know how high the bounty on Sansa is but pretty much anyone should realize that he could gain more from Littlefinger/Sansa in the Vale than from doing something stupid.

The Gates of the Moon are in the middle of the Vale. If he could get Sansa out of the castle Littlefinger would close all ports and passes and sent search passes on every possible route from the castle to another place. This cannot possibly work. And this is also the main reason why I suspect that Shadrich is working for somebody else rather than being in the game for the bounty.

[Harry the Hair]

As far as Shadrich is concerned - he's motivated by money, not some fanatic loyalty to Cersei or the Crown

I may be wrong, but isn't it Varys who bought up his debt? I doubt he'll deliver her to Cersei, he'll probably move her to whatever location Varys specified.

[Mithras]

I see a lot of disappointment that Sansa is so controlled by LF - I don't know what else anyone was expecting. She really does not have anywhere else to go nor anyone else who she can depend on, as she reflects to herself at the end of ASOS. She thinks that Bronze Yohn never went to Robb's aid - she does not know, nor has any way of knowing, that Lysa prevented him from doing that. As far as Sansa knows, her family is all dead, or alive but captive and powerless. She is wanted for regicide by the current regime - and she has no way of knowing that Cersei has been imprisoned. There is so much that we readers know that Sansa does not. In any event, it's hard to blame a teenage girl with no surviving friends or family (as far as she knows) who is wanted for a crime she hasn't committed, for staying with "the devil she knows." What other choice does she have, realistically?

Arya is in a similar situation too but he kills for her own agenda and keeps some secrets from the KM.

[Colonel Green]

I may be wrong, but isn't it Varys who bought up his debt?

Not that we're aware of.

[Lord Varys]

Shadrich serving a merchant on the road does not mean he wasn't always bound to the Vale. Duskendale was on the road and why not earn some additional money? The important thing is that he comes from KL. Mentioning Varys could be a hint to his true loyalties by George disguised as the words of a man playing the role of a greedy bounty hunter. Shadrich should have learned of Varys' disappearance and the new Small Council long before he reached the Vale.

[Gala]

I see a lot of disappointment that Sansa is so controlled by LF - I don't know what else anyone was expecting. She really does not have anywhere else to go nor anyone else who she can depend on, as she reflects to herself at the end of ASOS. She thinks that Bronze Yohn never went to Robb's aid - she does not know, nor has any way of knowing, that Lysa prevented him from doing that. As far as Sansa knows, her family is all dead, or alive but captive and powerless. She is wanted for regicide by the current regime - and she has no way of knowing that Cersei has been imprisoned. There is so much that we readers know that Sansa does not. In any event, it's hard to blame a teenage girl with no surviving friends or family (as far as she knows) who is wanted for a crime she hasn't committed, for staying with "the devil she knows." What other choice does she have, realistically?

:agree:

[Mithras]

How does Shadrich know that Sansa disappeared with Dontos the last time she was seen? Varys was the one who reported to the Small Council that Sansa was last seen with Dontos at the serpentine steps. Brienne was not privy to this knowledge. She questioned Brella and from her she learned how Sansa saved Dontos. That is why she decided that Dontos must have taken her.

[Colonel Green]

I wonder if she was Timmett's mother. If that is true, then Timmett is the real heir to the Vale after Robin Arryn. That was all part of the huge genealogy infodump that LF told Sansa - it may be that, if she comes into contact with the Burned Men somehow, Sansa is in a position to tell Timmett that. Whether Timmett cares is another matter altogether.

That would depend entirely on her having married Timmett's dad in some sort of ceremony that anywhere else in Westeros would recognize (and also that would have Sansa installing a man whose mother was kidnapped and raped by her family's enemies like Sansa herself was meant to be, had Tyrion not declined to follow through on it).

How does Shadrich know that Sansa disappeared with Dontos the last time she was seen?

Dontos disappeared from the Red Keep at the exact same time Sansa did. Pretty obvious conclusion (and, indeed, we're told that a bunch of people in Duskendale have been searching for Dontos). I'm actually not clear why Brienne was unaware of that to begin with, frankly.

Shadrich serving a merchant on the road does not mean he wasn't always bound to the Vale. Duskendale was on the road and why not earn some additional money?

If he's an agent of Varys and was sent to the Vale, he could go there directly by ship. And, again, there's his attempt to recruit Brienne, a figure who would almost certainly be a detriment if he was knowingly going to investigate Littlefinger.

[Mithras]

And Brella is most probably an agent of Varys too. Sansa's first maids were spying on her at the behalf of Cersei (but in fact they should be LF's). Varys convinced Tyrion to replace them with Brella and Shae. Brella was originally serving for Renly.