Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Shadrick is no agent of Varys imo. He's just a lowly hedge knight who became a bounty hunter and has struck gold. Varys is not omnipotent and he has so many balls in the ear that I don't see this as being another one. In the end not everything in the novels is determined by LF and Varys, people still have their own will. Plus, if Varys was truly behind this, I don't see any reason why he would not have acted on the information already. Sansa and the Vale are way to valuable to leave in LF's hands combined. I've been thinking about this comment, and I think I share your suspicion of the idea that everything can be attributed to Littlefinger and Varys. However, I like the idea that Ser Shadrich is working for Varys not because it empowers Varys, but because it empowers Sansa. Under the current circumstances, Littlefinger has a number of things up on Sansa, including his experience and the information disparity that he has over her. If everybody else in the Vale is a small-time player, then that power disparity makes it for me to see how Sansa will ever be empowered (and of course she has to be, because otherwise why she's a main character?). Having an agent of Varys around makes that much easier to see: suddenly Sansa can have secrets from both sides, and know more than either Varys or Littlefinger would want her to know alone, and chart her own course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Yes I completely agree with the bolded. Not everything is a 'Long Con' planned by Varys. Yes it keeps consistent with some of her more childish tendencies. Like the way she is describing how cute all the boys are, in the exact same way she used to talk about Joffrey. Think she has learned yet that looks can be deceiving? Also, does anyone think it's significant that Shadrich's mouse is white with red eyes? Just like Bloodraven and Ghost and Viserion. Mean anything?Her describing the looks of people and whether she thinks they are good looking or not doesn't strike me as a childish tendency. Everyone has preferances after all, and most people make some sort of appearance assessment on meeting new people, however briefly. And yes, I think she knows looks aren't the be all and end all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Having an agent of Varys around makes that much easier to see: suddenly Sansa can have secrets from both sides, and know more than either Varys or Littlefinger would want her to know alone, and chart her own course. An agent of Varys might allow her to know more than Littlefinger would want her to know, but seeing as Varys dispatched this guy, anything he feeds her would be stuff he wants her to know, and presumably with some sense of what Littlefinger's plans are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 @Suzanna: Sansa HAS learned that looks aren't everything. She explicitly thinks, 'Joffrey was comely too, a comely monster. Little lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was'. It's okay for her to think some random knights to be handsome because she won't be dealing with them a lot. But she has to focus on Harry, and there she is not easily persuaded by his looks. Both Jon and Arya thought Joffrey to be a little prick, but Sansa didn't. Here, despite his lordly looks, Sansa's first impression is Harry the Horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aderyn Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Gods, I leave the forums for a couple of days because of the Easter break and during that time GRRM drops another excerpt... :drool: Interesting times.... Well wasn't exactly what I had in mind when they said "controversial" but you can definitely see Sansa tuning on her player mode so I guess in a way this is Sansa turning a new leaf in her life. Looking forward to seeing what will happen to her next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Yes I completely agree with the bolded. Not everything is a 'Long Con' planned by Varys. I'm glad others share my thoughts on the matter. On top of what I said in my previous post, I would also like to add that - if Varys is really the uberpowerful spymaster some believe him to be - than why would he need to ship someone in from the area around KL? Wouldn't it be far more likely in this scenario that Varys already has someone of note spying for him on LF and SR. Someone who is native to the Vale and doesn't stand out as much as Shadrick is bound to do (being an outlander and all). I've been thinking about this comment, and I think I share your suspicion of the idea that everything can be attributed to Littlefinger and Varys. However, I like the idea that Ser Shadrich is working for Varys not because it empowers Varys, but because it empowers Sansa. Under the current circumstances, Littlefinger has a number of things up on Sansa, including his experience and the information disparity that he has over her. If everybody else in the Vale is a small-time player, then that power disparity makes it for me to see how Sansa will ever be empowered (and of course she has to be, because otherwise why she's a main character?). Having an agent of Varys around makes that much easier to see: suddenly Sansa can have secrets from both sides, and know more than either Varys or Littlefinger would want her to know alone, and chart her own course. The thing is, empowering Varys is inevitable in this scenario. And I don't see how Sansa all of a sudden gets empowered from this. If Shadrick were an agent of Varys, he probably wouldn't be knowledgeable of how Varys's operations work or have any real valuable information for her. After all, why would Varys risk someone with insider knowledge on a risky venture like this. If Shadrick is an agent of Varys, he probably knows little more than 'wait for signal X to abduct Sansa and bring her to point Y, where she'll be taken of your hands by agent Z. And even if he did have more info than that, why would he share that with Sansa beyond the "I'm a villain giggle giggle... taking you to this place for this reason." If Sansa empowers herself, there is plenty of opportunity to do so. LF has always been ambitious, so in the end it may be hubris that kills him. For all we know he'll confess his crimes to her directly and turn her against him. Perhaps Tyrion and Daenerys land in the Vale and Tyrion opens his ledger of dirt on LF. Perhaps Sansa genuinely falls in love with HtH (only a hypothetical Sansans, please don't kill me :P ) and lots of people here seem to think that LF might have Harry killed, so they might not see eye to eye on that one. Perhaps her identity is disclosed by accident or she gets news of Jon's assassination or Rickon's return, which might seriously mess with LF's control over her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I'm glad others share my thoughts on the matter. On top of what I said in my previous post, I would also like to add that - if Varys is really the uberpowerful spymaster some believe him to be - than why would he need to ship someone in from the area around KL? Wouldn't it be far more likely in this scenario that Varys already has someone of note spying for him on LF and SR. Someone who is native to the Vale and doesn't stand out as much as Shadrick is bound to do (being an outlander and all). If this is a sensitive operation, then Varys would send somebody that he had a great deal of personal experience with. And since Varys is based out of King's Landing, that person would be as well. The thing is, empowering Varys is inevitable in this scenario. And I don't see how Sansa all of a sudden gets empowered from this. If Shadrick were an agent of Varys, he probably wouldn't be knowledgeable of how Varys's operations work or have any real valuable information for her. After all, why would Varys risk someone with insider knowledge on a risky venture like this. If Shadrick is an agent of Varys, he probably knows little more than 'wait for signal X to abduct Sansa and bring her to point Y, where she'll be taken of your hands by agent Z. And even if he did have more info than that, why would he share that with Sansa beyond the "I'm a villain giggle giggle... taking you to this place for this reason." You're making the assumption that Varys would want to abduct Sansa. I don't see any reason why that would be the case. If Ser Shadrick is an agent, then we can leave the abduction scenario behind, because it's a narrative dead-end. And if Varys wants to interrupt Littlefinger's plans, there's a much simpler way to do that--convince Sansa that there are skeletons in LF's closet, and then start dragging them out to the light for her to see. As a lot of people have noted, LF's plans rely on him being able to control Harry through Sansa for a period of time. Varys has more than enough ammunition to stop that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 HtH, yeah, that would be my take as well. Shadrich's mission would be way more subtle than abducting Sansa. He could try to drive a wedge between Sansa and Littlefinger, he could try to ensure that the Vale backs Aegon, and he could be an invisible dagger at Littlefinger's throat to ensure that Petyr does not become a threat to Aegon. Varys has learned in AGoT what sort of a player Littlefinger is. But this is now his game, the game he has prepared for nearly two decades. He is not letting anything to chance. Petyr can play, I guess, as long as he sticks to Varys' new rules... This could also explain why Shadrich had to go. Prior to Littlefinger's arrival in the Vale this was no overall important region but with him there Varys would want one of his most trusted men there, and we assume that Shadrich is such a man. We know that Varys has adult agents - the usual kind of informer that also reports to Qyburn later on - but it makes little sense to assume that Varys intends to go through with his master plan just with one fat cheese monger and a bunch of small children. He has to have more men in his employ, people on the the streets influencing public opinion, agents in place in other power centers - men he can trust. Tyrion hinted at that in ACoK - he originally considered Ser Jacelyn Bywater as Varys' man. And I imagine this was actually the case. Certainly Varys would not have a suggested a man to Tyrion he could not count upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeyed chicken Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I hated Sansa but im starting to love Alayne. I was wondering if anybody would have that reaction. On the other side of the coin, will Sansa's fanatic devotees be less enamored of this more worldly, dare I say, manipulative siren Sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Yes I completely agree with the bolded. Not everything is a 'Long Con' planned by Varys. Yes it keeps consistent with some of her more childish tendencies. Like the way she is describing how cute all the boys are, in the exact same way she used to talk about Joffrey. Think she has learned yet that looks can be deceiving? Also, does anyone think it's significant that Shadrich's mouse is white with red eyes? Just like Bloodraven and Ghost and Viserion. Mean anything? Have you read the chapter carefully? She directly stated looks can be deceiving, and acted accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghosts Lunch Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Why would Ser Shadrich know where Brienne is, or trust her to assist him in an endeavor that could cost them both their lives? They spent maybe an afternoon together six months ago. Just thinking You are Mad Mouse, you want to smuggle her out, need someone good in a fight to do that Someone like Brienne is suitable as you know she is looking for Sansa so easy to lure into the Vale unlikely to turn on you and put a knife in your bag to keep the Dragons to themselves as someone like Brienne is fetching her out for honour and vows That's without going into the fact that I think Ser Shadrich/Mad Mouse is his own man, he mentioned the bag of gold being offerred but he isn't necassarily going to cynically "cash in" on her, we don't know what his thoughts are Interestingly Podrick may be off-putting to Sansa if she thinks they are returning her to Cersei but he may be useful in getting the party past the Mountain Clans as some would recognise him as Tyrions Squire from their time in KL during ACoK who can vouch for Sansa being Tyrions wife if they still have any loyalty towards him still, Mountain Clans could even cover their escape in terms of hassling any pursuing Vale forces Thing is this Gulltown song people have noted has got me thinking further, Sansa would go along with a party consisting of Brienne/Pod and even Jaimie if Sandor was a part of it as he knows she wouldn't turn him over to Cersei, the idea of Brienne fetching the Gravedigger on the way has got me thinking Food for thought A Ser Shadrich/Brienne/Podrick/Jaimie/Sandor/EDIT:Blackfish Sansa abduction party would be quite something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Just thinking You are Mad Mouse, you want to smuggle her out, need someone good in a fight to do that Someone like Brienne is suitable as you know she is looking for Sansa so easy to lure into the Vale unlikely to turn on you and put a knife in your bag to keep the Dragons to themselves as someone like Brienne is fetching her out for honour and vows Cool idea! Problem is MM is in Vale and Brienne is lost. Unless she escaped and they had a chance-reunion at the Vale. I'm still not over getting pissed off at Brienne for thinking 'Lysa is dead, so Sansa could not have gone to Vale.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 A Ser Shadrich/Brienne/Podrick/Jaimie/Sandor Sansa abduction party would be quite something Until Sansa tells them to leave her alone and chooses to stay at the Vale. What's that ragtag team of fighters going to offer her? Where will they be taking her? A dark cave with her zombified mother? Of course, it's still her mother, but what's Sansa going to do with the BWB? The BWB is no army, the Riverlords are exhausted and can't fight until their hostages are released anyway, and Sansa Stark raising from the shadows to fight the Freys will only invite retaliation from the Tyrells the moment they can spare the men. Even if she wants to kill the Freys and rule the Riverlands (and she never stated she wanted to), she has a better shot at it by staying with Littlefinger. AKA, the de jure Lord Paramount of the Riverlands whom the Freys won't want lording over them and with connections within the Vale, AKA, a place with real armies and food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 A thought just occurred to me - a tourney would be the perfect opportunity for a mystery knight to show up and win a place in the Winged Kinghts. A chance for the Blackfish to reappear perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 A thought just occurred to me - a tourney would be the perfect opportunity for a mystery knight to show up and win a place in the Winged Kinghts. A chance for the Blackfish to reappear perhaps? But this is by invitation only, so who would LF want to secretly come and why? No one knows where BF is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Yes I completely agree with the bolded. Not everything is a 'Long Con' planned by Varys. Yes it keeps consistent with some of her more childish tendencies. Like the way she is describing how cute all the boys are, in the exact same way she used to talk about Joffrey. Think she has learned yet that looks can be deceiving? Also, does anyone think it's significant that Shadrich's mouse is white with red eyes? Just like Bloodraven and Ghost and Viserion. Mean anything? So would you call men looking at beautiful women childish? Or is it only men who are allowed to possess sexual desire? Seriously, when a woman stops caring about how men look, it means there is something seriously wrong with her mentally. That she has been abused so much that she thinks herself unworthy of sexual pleasure and healthy children. I find it amazing how prevalent the male gaze is that so many women have so internalised it, that they consider it childish for a woman to admire the beauty of the male form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I'm glad others share my thoughts on the matter. On top of what I said in my previous post, I would also like to add that - if Varys is really the uberpowerful spymaster some believe him to be - than why would he need to ship someone in from the area around KL? Wouldn't it be far more likely in this scenario that Varys already has someone of note spying for him on LF and SR. Someone who is native to the Vale and doesn't stand out as much as Shadrick is bound to do (being an outlander and all). Varys admitted to Illyrio in AGoT that the Vale and Dragonstone were out of his grasp. So, I don't think anybody can reasonably argue that Varys is the uber spymaster. In fact, he was blinded by his own torch and none of them saw Arya during that entire dialogue. But in this specific case, it makes sense to assume that Shadrich is a pet of Varys. A thought just occurred to me - a tourney would be the perfect opportunity for a mystery knight to show up and win a place in the Winged Kinghts. A chance for the Blackfish to reappear perhaps? I don't think mystery knights are allowed in this specific tourney. Besides, BF is wanted by the IT and even if he has good friends at the Vale, it would be too risky for him to appear at the Vale. I think BF will try to save Edmure because he is the closest family he has now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 But this is by invitation only, so who would LF want to secretly come and why? No one knows where BF is.But there could be party crashing. And it's a fun idea with Harrenhal tourney possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 There's also this: "The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but the would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghosts Lunch Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Until Sansa tells them to leave her alone and chooses to stay at the Vale. What's that ragtag team of fighters going to offer her? Where will they be taking her? A dark cave with her zombified mother? Of course, it's still her mother, but what's Sansa going to do with the BWB? The BWB is no army, the Riverlords are exhausted and can't fight until their hostages are released anyway, and Sansa Stark raising from the shadows to fight the Freys will only invite retaliation from the Tyrells the moment they can spare the men. Even if she wants to kill the Freys and rule the Riverlands (and she never stated she wanted to), she has a better shot at it by staying with Littlefinger. AKA, the de jure Lord Paramount of the Riverlands whom the Freys won't want lording over them and with connections within the Vale, AKA, a place with real armies and food. Forgot to mention the Blackfish as part of the party, she might be inclined to trust her Uncle She might be inclined to go if she is offered Harrenhall by Varys/Aegon and the security/independence that comes with it. For Aegon the south can be secured via physically holding Storms End as we know they do, marrying Arianne to secure an alliance with Dorne and they can supplant the Tyrells and put someone else in power in the Reach but then they need to start focusing on securing the riverlands and north She is suitable figurehead there, as she locks in or at least prevents aggression from the Vale through SR loyalty to her as cousin but also as a Tully the riverlanders are unlikely to march against her. She is even prospectively important to neutralising the north as a threat to Aegon, given I reckon the Iron bank is pressuring Manderly to support Rickon as Lord of Winterfell behind a Stannis claim. Sansa can't supplant a revealed Rickon but he can ensure the northerners won't march into the Riverlands Either way I think her path takes her to Harrenhall whether it is via LF or Varys/Aegon and she will be more independent. TShe could go over to Varys after she goes to Harrenhall with LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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