GRRM considering big twist for a major character

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I can tell you with absolute assurance that there is nothing in the contract that will prevent GRRM from doing things differently in the last two books if he wishes. I don't think he will because the ending of the story is built on everything that has come before, and doing something different just for difference's sake will feel trite and artificial, hence GRRM's claim he will only do things differently for that character if it feels natural.

I don't think the question is whether he can do things differently in the last 2 books, I think it's more can he drastically change things after he's briefed the creative team on what is coming? I can't imagine HBO agreeing to that any more than I would imagine Martin agreeing not to change anything at all when the deal was formed in 2008. I suppose there may not be any specific language on this since it's an unusual scenario. There has to be room for creative development but there also has to be some security about what's coming in the story, doesn't there? And, a minor correction: many here are saying the ending will be different when the article's quote only mentions a particular event. The ending will remain what he's been planning, if I understand the article correctly.

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

It's Maester Aemon. Long-time character, involving several characters etcera etcetra. Remember how bummed you were when you realised that Aemon wouldn't make it back to Oldtown alive? Well, as we saw with Pate, the Red Priests are a thing there too. Baddabing baddabang, the Summer Islanders preserved the old man in Rum! Cold preserves, right? Well so does rum. The Red Priests can revive Aemon Targaryen for the big reveal. Marwyn, Alleras, Sam and Gilly could be the 3 or 4.

The night is long and full of errors...

PS It's probably Syrio = Jaqen, but I prefer my pots cracked and my crazed pottery to linger on the shelf.

[Weirdo]

I don't think the question is whether he can do things differently in the last 2 books, I think it's more can he drastically change things after he's briefed the creative team on what is coming? I can't imagine HBO agreeing to that any more than I would imagine Martin agreeing not to change anything at all when the deal was formed in 2008. I suppose there may not be any specific language on this since it's an unusual scenario. There has to be room for creative development but there also has to be some security about what's coming in the story, doesn't there? And, a minor correction: many here are saying the ending will be different when the article's quote only mentions a particular event. The ending will remain what he's been planning, if I understand the article correctly.

Money guys at HBO not only can't tell George what to write, they don't care. HBO doesn't make money off of books. If anything, such a controversy would raise the visibility of the program (as if they need it). A perception by the public that the show and the books are identical would hurt sales for both, not help. And readers are only a fraction of the size of the viewership.

But regardless, TV rights are not book rights. And it goes both ways - think of all the lousy movie adaptations you've seen that completely change the story (Hello, Ghost Story). The author has nothing to say about it. They took the money, the film does not belong to them.

[Satin fetch me a cock!]

Could it not be Jon and how he finds out that Bran is still alive?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think the question is whether he can do things differently in the last 2 books, I think it's more can he drastically change things after he's briefed the creative team on what is coming?

As much as he cares to, I would imagine. The TV series has its own audience, for whom it works on its own terms. If the book series ends differently, that won't hurt the show at all.

[SevasTra82]

I highly, highly doubt the Show is impacting anything that GRRM is doing with the books. The Books are his baby and totally separate from the show. GRRM has stated this on many occassions. I find if very hard to believe GRRM would alter his story based on what a show is doing.

On that note, I think it's pretty neat to see that not even GRRM has the stories future set in stone, and that, even this far along in the books, he's still changing his mind and twisting things up that he did not originally plan. Gives us a little insight into his writing process.

[shastada]

This is a fun read, but all pointless. Even if the change happens we won't know he changed it when we get the book eventually anyway unless he specifically calls it out later as 'this is what i meant by that' which I doubt he will ever do. Fun for speculation though.

[shastada]

I highly, highly doubt the Show is impacting anything that GRRM is doing with the books. The Books are his baby and totally separate from the show. GRRM has stated this on many occassions. I find if very hard to believe GRRM would alter his story based on what a show is doing.

On that note, I think it's pretty neat to see that not even GRRM has the stories future set in stone, and that, even this far along in the books, he's still changing his mind and twisting things up that he did not originally plan. Gives us a little insight into his writing process.

Yeah and why it takes him 5-6 years to put out a book. He's not sticking to any outline.

[Satin fetch me a cock!]

I highly, highly doubt the Show is impacting anything that GRRM is doing with the books. The Books are his baby and totally separate from the show. GRRM has stated this on many occassions. I find if very hard to believe GRRM would alter his story based on what a show is doing.

On that note, I think it's pretty neat to see that not even GRRM has the stories future set in stone, and that, even this far along in the books, he's still changing his mind and twisting things up that he did not originally plan. Gives us a little insight into his writing process.

His "baby" has turned in to 40 year old adult child that still lives at home. If this were his baby, his passion would show in the amount of time he spent writing which would translate to a smaller gap between books. Dance has been for nearly 4 years and we are just now getting clues that he has started writing. He is finally talking about WOW because he has finally decided to start working on WOW. All the chapters we have heard about are chapters written nearly a decade ago.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Money guys at HBO not only can't tell George what to write,

I highly, highly doubt the Show is impacting anything that GRRM is doing with the books.

It's interesting how many of you have interpreted my post to say that HBO can tell Martin what to write. You've mixed up the flow of information. I asked could Martin brief them one thing and then do another? The show isn't dictating what happens, Martin is. For the books and the show. While the show has its differences, big ones at times, D&D are very interesting in telling Martin's story which is why HBO purchased the rights to it. So my question is, are there limitations to what changes can occur when the agreement is for the author to brief the producers of what is coming in the next chapters?

I suppose a good analogy - since I'm a teacher - is can a company contracted to create a new version of the SAT provide guidelines to a book company on what type of material will be on the test so they can create a practice workbook (paid for, of course!) only to finally release the test with 40% new and completely different material on it than what was shared?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I suppose a good analogy - since I'm a teacher - is can a company contracted to create a new version of the SAT provide guidelines to a book company on what type of material will be on the test so they can create a practice workbook (paid for, of course!) only to finally release the test with 40% new and completely different material on it than what was shared?

I don't understand this analogy at all. Neither the HBO show nor the books are supplemental to the other. You can enjoy one without the other. So it doesn't affect the quality (or the ratings) of one to make changes to another.

[Cas Stark]

I don't understand this analogy at all. Neither the HBO show nor the books are supplemental to the other. You can enjoy one without the other. So it doesn't affect the quality (or the ratings) of one to make changes to another.

HBO bought the rights to the series so they can "adapt" it for TV. I would very, very strongly suspect then, that if the ending GRRM gave HBO is drastically, fundamentally different from the ending he eventually puts in the books, that would be a problem, even granting that this is a relatively unprecedented situation of selling the rights to something you have not actually created yet.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

HBO bought the rights to the series so they can "adapt" it for TV. I would very, very strongly suspect then, that if the ending GRRM gave HBO is drastically, fundamentally different from the ending he eventually puts in the books, that would be a problem, even granting that this is a relatively unprecedented situation of selling the rights to something you have not actually created yet.

Why? How would that hurt the show, or HBO?

[Corvinus85]

I suppose a good analogy - since I'm a teacher - is can a company contracted to create a new version of the SAT provide guidelines to a book company on what type of material will be on the test so they can create a practice workbook (paid for, of course!) only to finally release the test with 40% new and completely different material on it than what was shared?

I don't know if they can, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but there would be public backlash. To bring it back to the GRRM discussion, I think he can do whatever he wants, but he may (most likely) have to face fan backlash. That's all.

Edit: And considering that by the time the last book is published, the show will most likely be over, this wouldn't affect HBO. In fact, it wouldn't affect HBO either way, it's really certain fans that would be pissed off.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I don't understand this analogy at all. Neither the HBO show nor the books are supplemental to the other. You can enjoy one without the other. So it doesn't affect the quality (or the ratings) of one to make changes to another.

HBO is completely supplemental to Martin and in a very unusual way since the books aren't finished and they have nothing to rely on but what HE TELLS THEM about how the story will proceed. If D&D weren't interested in telling the same story, there would be much less of them having to rely on what he shares with them.

[Cas Stark]

Why? How would that hurt the show, or HBO?

Because they bought the rights to the series, not the series through Dance, but the whole thing, which includes the ending for the main characters. So, I would assume, if, for example, he gave HBO an ending where Jon lives and then he kills him in the book, that's a legal problem, because it's a material change. It isn't about 'hurting' the show, it's about what HBO paid GRRM for and how much leeway he then has in whatever passive/aggressive changes he wants to make in order to differentiate his product from HBO's.

[Veltigar]

People shouldn't make a fuzz out of this. GRRM isn't going to change something big, just to add some twist. He has been building up to the ending for a long time. The change probably has something to do with something the show cut or compressed. As everyone should know by now, show and books hit the same plotpoints, but they use totally different journeys to get there. Nothing new.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Because they bought the rights to the series, not the series through Dance, but the whole thing, which includes the ending for the main characters. So, I would assume, if, for example, he gave HBO an ending where Jon lives and then he kills him in the book, that's a legal problem, because it's a material change. It isn't about 'hurting' the show, it's about what HBO paid GRRM for and how much leeway he then has in whatever passive/aggressive changes he wants to make in order to differentiate his product from HBO's.

HBO doesn't care if Jon dies in the books but lives on the show. HBO cares if GoT attracts new subscribers and retains old subscribers. If aDoS comes out several years after the final season of the show airs with a different ending from the show, that's not going to affect HBO's subscriber base.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

People shouldn't make a fuzz out of this. GRRM isn't going to change something big, just to add some twist. He has been building up to the ending for a long time. The change probably has something to do with something the show cut or compressed. As everyone should know by now, show and books hit the same plotpoints, but they use totally different journeys to get there. Nothing new.

I agree and I disagree. Martin's quote does say he's thought of a new twist that would change things and that it would impact decisions the show made to cut or compress. He hasn't said he would definitely do it and I doubt he would because it might take longer to "unwrite" and rewrite the chapter(s), it would put bad blood between him and HBO and would disappoint a certain segment of his book fans. Ironically, making changes - the bigger the better - would make another segment of his fans super happy. Still, ultimately I don't think he'll do it and made the statement because he wanted to stress the butterfly effect he's mentioned before and to keep the interest in his books after the show spoils things. I think he'll continue to stress the differences as we get into season 7.

[Timm]

"the various three, four characters"

This would fit the dragons and Dany.

I'm not sure what the changes in the show would be though.