why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[The Key Is Patchface]

double post

[The Key Is Patchface]

Also I don't think they will end the season with Jon being stabbed...they are not going to want to end on a downer like that and send everyone into the off season with a depressed feeling...

Season 1 we got the dragons = uplifting and cool

Season 2 was White Walkers approaching the Fist = creepy and cool and ominous

Season 3 was Mysha which was supposed to be uplifting

Season 4 we have Arya sailing off which was hopeful and story broadening

If they end season 5 with another Stark/half Stark being seemingly stabbed to death they are going to get a ton of people that lose interest in a show that just kills their favorite characters or rapes them or generally abuses them over and over...so many Starks have suffered it makes sense to finally bring one back...plus LSH's resurrection could work in contrast to Gregor's...one done by the lord of light the other by Qyburn's evil tinkering...a regular Westerosi Man of Science Man of Faith scenario

[Damorian]

Wic have a new article up about the '5 missing characters' George R. R. Martin misses most, and (*deep, sad breath*) ... LSH is among them. :frown5:

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/06/01/george-r-r-martins-five-favorite-missing-characters/

Is this finally confirmation that she's gone? Or is he simply saying he's missed her up until this point? The article doesn't say. Nor do they ask him one way or another if he thinks she'll show up soon.

Interestingly enough, he uses the word 'cut' for certain of the other listed five, like Strong Belwas etc, but NOT for Lady Stoneheart, the article stressing from the outset : "~ fans still hold out hope that somehow the title "Mother's Mercy" for the finale this season means that the long missing Lady Stoneheart will once more seek vengeance in Westeros."

Which is curious in itself. But talk about clutching at straws! :bang: Why would he list her here if he's knows for a fact she's in? Bottom line is that it's probably the closet confirmation yet to bad news as well as an early nix on the "Mother Mercy" connection. Looks like being yet another blind alley, guys.

Part of me can't help feeling that on some level, they must have known that title would provoke more fasle hope, but c'est la vie. :dunno: Since I'm not about to accuse GRRM himself of trolling, guess we'll have to call this a gift of mercy from the man himself to spare us the long, eternal purgatory of finale Stoneheart hunting.(S3: :stillsick: S4: :ack: S5: :bawl:) Anything is preferable to sitting there waiting like a lemon three years in a row. :dunce:

Anyway, here's the quote:

~ But the fifth character Martin misses is the one I think will strike a cord in fans the most. Yes, readers, Martin misses the great Lady with the Heart of Stone too. Moreover, he pushes back on the claims from the end of last season that her character wasn't essential.

“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”

But what he then says is even more interesting. After all, to many people Lady Stoneheart is Catelyn Stark reborn. But Martin dismisses that.

“Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.”

So though it is Catelyn’s body and it is Catelyn’s revenge we think Lady Stoneheart is carrying out, the woman who wrecks havoc is not really Catelyn anymore. That’s true. Catelyn might have had mercy for her victims, or be persuaded by arguments. This one would probably not even stop for Arya or Sansa. It’s sad to think, but as Martin says, death does change a person, and probably not for the better either.

[Mister Stoneheart]

Yep. Seems she's out, but we all kind of knew that. The trolling in Mother's Mercy title is a bit much. Hey, at least we can move on!

[Damorian]

Yep, can't argue with Martin listing her in his top 5 missing characters. 99.9% game over.

[Stan Man]

I've hoped this year that LSH will join up with the Winterfell storyline - if there's anyone she wants to kill besides the Freys, it's the Boltons, especially after Sansa's situation.

*dreams* Before/during/after the Battle of Ice, LSH appears to seek out Boltons, but she finds Brienne instead (meanwhile Sansa just misses her, like Arya in 3.09)

[GSB]

After the whole 20 minute "walking dead" fiesta in the last episode, I can totally see why they won't include her... WE know the difference between the wights and a Thoros-performed resurrection but the casual viewers (who still don't know who Lancel is or that he appeared in the first two seasons) will be asking questions like "So the white walkers got Catelyn?"

[Morna White Mask]

Long-time lurker, first-time poster...

Just a quick question, not sure if anyone knows the answer: how heavily involved is GRRM in the writing/production of this season (given that he hasn't written an episode)? Is it at all possible that he just doesn't know they haven't cut her?

I want to believe that D&D didn't just troll book-readers with that title, knowing full well how many people have anticipated this character... but I'm seriously clutching at straws :frown5:

[dsug]

I hope to god Lady Stoneheart is in. That would just elevate the drama and the show as a whole to a whole nother level. I'm kind of curious as to what she would look like - hypothetically. Make her less rotting, more grey and bloody

[Khal Porno]

Lady Stoneheart was cut out to annoy you.

(I actually think there is a good chance she will be in it though, but I won't cry if she's not)

[Damorian]

There's no chance anymore, Khal.

Much as I was among those REALLY hoping it might finally happen in the aftermath of the "Mother's Mercy" title appearing, I just said in the post above that George himself has listed her among his 5 fave missing characters, book to show.

Given GRRM's inside info & discussions with showrunners, that means she won't show up. It's over.

But the more I think about it, I do think that choice of title was cruel when they must have known we'd make that LSH connection, tbh, over and above the more transparent link to Cersei. Why give us false hope? No idea. :dunno:

[King Tyrion Targaryen]

It seems kind of suspicious to me that this sentiment for the character was released so closely to when we all learned of the episode title. While I've given up on the inclusion of LSH, i feel like this could be the final attempt by those associated with the show to seemingly "prove" the exclusion, so that both show-lovers and book-readers will be equally surprised.

I hope she's in but I also hope I win the lottery.

[Borodin]

"Mother's Mercy" is a reference to the clemency that Cersei will seek in confessing and doing the walk of shame.

Lady Stoneheart was cut so that D&D could fulfil their fanboy wet-dream of having Brienne fight The Hound, plot be damned.

Even if LSH was included, what could she possibly do now that Brienne's arc has gone completely off the rails?

[Kairos]

I also don't think that she will be in but if she WERE to be in, there would still be the question how the show could make her appearance plausible. As I've posted in another thread, I think one way to do it could be to have Selyse or Shireen being killed in 5x09 by Ramsay and then have Melisandre unsuccessfully try to resurrect them. Melisandre witnessed Thoros performing the same on Beric back in season 3. You could even have the respective scene in the previously on for 5x09 and it wouldn't be too suspicious because the audience would think this reminder was only meant for the Melisandre and Selyse/Shireen scene. Then in 5x10 we would have BWB and LSH.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I beleive why the REAL reason why Ladystoneheart was cut out was they wanted Jon Snow's RETURN a REALLY BIG DEAL. If a other character does it first what the deal?

I think that it was much more practical than that.

As a book writer, GRRM simply has to have an idea that he likes. And write a paragraph or two about it.

When it comes to tv, those two paragraphs can turn into a nightmare to put into video production.

D&D know the ending of the story. Got it from GRRM himself.

If Lady Stoneheart were important to the overall story, she'd still be there in the tv series.

So, given all that, I'd say that she was just simply a book writer's indulgence.

Interesting, but not impactful, character.

[Borodin]

D&D know the ending of the story. Got it from GRRM himself. If Lady Stoneheart were important to the overall story, she'd still be there in the tv series.

There has to be a name for this fallacy of looking at the final act of a story arc to determine retroactively what was necessary to the story. It's just plain silly. If anything that is not directly relevant to the final act of a story is "not important" you'd eliminate the vast majority of characters and subplots. How essential is Arya going to prove to the final battle between dragons and white walkers? If she has no direct impact on the outcome of that battle, can we simply abandon her character as "unimportant"?

The more likely story is that D&D thought they could get more yucks out of odd-couple subplots, like The Wacky Adventures of Arya and The Hound, and The Wacky Adventures of Brienne and Pod, rendering LSH unfeasible in terms of plot and time.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

There has to be a name for this fallacy of looking at the final act of a story arc to determine retroactively what was necessary to the story. It's just plain silly. If anything that is not directly relevant to the final act of a story is "not important" you'd eliminate the vast majority of characters and subplots. How essential is Arya going to prove to the final battle between dragons and white walkers? If she has no direct impact on the outcome of that battle, can we simply abandon her character as "unimportant"?

The more likely story is that D&D thought they could get more yucks out of odd-couple subplots, like The Wacky Adventures of Arya and The Hound, and The Wacky Adventures of Brienne and Pod, rendering LSH unfeasible in terms of plot and time.

It's not a fallacy, it's called translating one medium into another.

As someone who is invested in the outcome, I Damn Well hope that Arya is an end player in the game.

Lady Stoneheart ? I can do without. Same for the entireity of the Iron Islands.

They simply do not advance the story.

They are sideshow freaks.

[Borodin]

It's not a fallacy, it's called translating one medium into another.

As someone who is invested in the outcome, I Damn Well hope that Arya is an end player in the game.

Lady Stoneheart ? I can do without. Same for the entireity of the Iron Islands.

They simply do not advance the story.

They are sideshow freaks.

I like Arya too, but there is no evidence that she serves the over-arching plot of ASOIAF any more or less than Lady Stoneheart, Coldhands, or the Greyjoys.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I like Arya too, but there is no evidence that she serves the over-arching plot of ASOIAF any more or less than Lady Stoneheart, Coldhands, or the Greyjoys.

Agreed.

Personally, I think that GRRM painted himself into a writer's corner, got noticed, signed a tv deal, and has no idea whatsoever how to logically get out of it.

[Borodin]

Personally, I think that GRRM painted himself into a writer's corner, got noticed, signed a tv deal, and has no idea whatsoever how to logically get out of it.

I very much doubt that. I think he has his plan but the show is making such a mess of it that it reflects badly on ASOIAF. D&D's flailing attempts to inject their own vision on the story is causing the whole thing to unravel. GRRM's book vision is still in tact.