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why was Ladystoneheart cut out


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I'll never understand why the show didn't go for this.  Easiest lay-up of all time to shock viewers and get buzzed about...and they wouldn't even have a beloved character get raped!  

We'll see...because I still can't believe it.  Everything is set up perfectly this year for her to appear but just doesn't seem like it's happening.

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I just don't see what's compelling about a revenge plot involving the BWB without LSH.

We know that these bandits showing up in Season 6 have gone "bad", so my question is who is the leader that has allowed the brotherhood to sink to such depths as robbing and murdering the common folk?

I can't see the Blackfish being so enraged and overcome with grief that he would overlook such things. Sansa wouldn't stand for it either. I also don't see a leaderless and now seemingly honourless BWB taking up the cause of avenging the Red Wedding. 

There's only one person who could be so blinded by rage that could convincingly condone these actions or simply not care one bit. So either they've gone the full monty on this storyline so to speak or they're giving us a desperately neutered version of it. It's one or the other.

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11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I'll never understand why the show didn't go for this.  Easiest lay-up of all time to shock viewers and get buzzed about...and they wouldn't even have a beloved character get raped!  

We'll see...because I still can't believe it.  Everything is set up perfectly this year for her to appear but just doesn't seem like it's happening.

Agree.

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5 minutes ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I just don't see what's compelling about a revenge plot involving the BWB without LSH.

We know that these bandits showing up in Season 6 have gone "bad", so my question is who is the leader that has allowed the brotherhood to sink to such depths as robbing and murdering the common folk?

I can't see the Blackfish being so enraged and overcome with grief that he would overlook such things. Sansa wouldn't stand for it either. I also don't see a leaderless and now seemingly honourless BWB taking up the cause of avenging the Red Wedding. 

There's only one person who could be so blinded by rage that could convincingly condone these actions or simply not care one bit. So either they've gone the full monty on this storyline so to speak or they're giving us a desperately neutered version of it. It's one or the other.

:bowdown:

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27 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I'll never understand why the show didn't go for this.  Easiest lay-up of all time to shock viewers and get buzzed about...and they wouldn't even have a beloved character get raped!  

We'll see...because I still can't believe it.  Everything is set up perfectly this year for her to appear but just doesn't seem like it's happening.

The show runners had considered cutting Dorne because it didn't fit with the show, but unfortunately they managed to shoe-horn it in, and now it is a permanent black eye to an otherwise remarkable series.

I think the really stupid zombie Cat would have been black eye number two. Sure, you'd get your initial cheap shock when she first makes her appearance, but then it's non-stop silliness after that. And it robs the Red Wedding of its impact, just for that cheap thrill and ensuing silliness.

20 minutes ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I just don't see what's compelling about a revenge plot involving the BWB without LSH.

We know that these bandits showing up in Season 6 have gone "bad", so my question is who is the leader that has allowed the brotherhood to sink to such depths as robbing and murdering the common folk?

I can't see the Blackfish being so enraged and overcome with grief that he would overlook such things. Sansa wouldn't stand for it either. I also don't see a leaderless and now seemingly honourless BWB taking up the cause of avenging the Red Wedding. 

There's only one person who could be so blinded by rage that could convincingly condone these actions or simply not care one bit. So either they've gone the full monty on this storyline so to speak or they're giving us a desperately neutered version of it. It's one or the other.

You are focused on book Blackfish and book Sansa. I don't agree with your assertion about book Blackfish - I could see him growing to condone increasingly unjust acts - but I do agree about book Sansa - she's a soft girl who is easily manipulated (just like the show), but she hasn't experience the kind of trauma that would make someone crazy with hate for the world, regardless of who else is affected. I can see show Sansa having just that mindset. And there's nothing about show Blackfish that makes me think that he would be appalled by a BWB rampage.

BWB may not perceive themselves to be honorless. One can be on a crusade of righteousness and commit many unrighteous acts in the process (see: the Sparrows).

This is not an argument that the Ramsay treatment of Sansa empowered her - quite the opposite. It's an argument that it totally would have fucked up her mind, and thereby made her capable of depredations that she would not otherwise have been capable of.

Although I'm sure some will argue that acts of revenge are acts of empowerment, but I don't see it that way.

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I haven't read the books (the red wedding episode sent me into a meltdown where I had to find out what was next for my beloved Starks), so my opinion on Blackfish is based solely on show Blackfish. From the brief moments I saw of him, he just didn't strike me as someone who would take out his grief on the wrong people. I've no doubt he'll be involved in a high body count of Lannisters and Freys, I just can't buy him as the de facto leader of a BWB killing and robbing indiscriminately. I don't think the Blackfish would waste his time with such crap, and would be clinical and strategic in delivering justice.

As for the honour of the BWB, well they've already been shown to be hypocritical in the show, so I can only imagine what they'll be like under worse leadership.

Just on Sansa, I'd still see her as soft un the show but in the right way. Just look at her reconciliation with Theon, so if she is turning into a mini Stoneheart on the show, they've started out on the wrong foot. 

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8 hours ago, Humble AK said:

The show runners had considered cutting Dorne because it didn't fit with the show, but unfortunately they managed to shoe-horn it in, and now it is a permanent black eye to an otherwise remarkable series.

I think the really stupid zombie Cat would have been black eye number two. Sure, you'd get your initial cheap shock when she first makes her appearance, but then it's non-stop silliness after that. And it robs the Red Wedding of its impact, just for that cheap thrill and ensuing silliness.

You are focused on book Blackfish and book Sansa. I don't agree with your assertion about book Blackfish - I could see him growing to condone increasingly unjust acts - but I do agree about book Sansa - she's a soft girl who is easily manipulated (just like the show), but she hasn't experience the kind of trauma that would make someone crazy with hate for the world, regardless of who else is affected. I can see show Sansa having just that mindset. And there's nothing about show Blackfish that makes me think that he would be appalled by a BWB rampage.

BWB may not perceive themselves to be honorless. One can be on a crusade of righteousness and commit many unrighteous acts in the process (see: the Sparrows).

This is not an argument that the Ramsay treatment of Sansa empowered her - quite the opposite. It's an argument that it totally would have fucked up her mind, and thereby made her capable of depredations that she would not otherwise have been capable of.

Although I'm sure some will argue that acts of revenge are acts of empowerment, but I don't see it that way.

What is silly is the show having 0 revenge for RW. Supernatural intervening to bring its victim back adds to the impact of RW and tragedy of Catelyn now robbed of peace.

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2 hours ago, LStoneheart said:

What is silly is the show having 0 revenge for RW. Supernatural intervening to bring its victim back adds to the impact of RW and tragedy of Catelyn now robbed of peace.

Or it completely destroys the RW's impact and makes it all a bit silly. Book equivalent of jumping the shark. Matter of opinion 

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33 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Or it completely destroys the RW's impact and makes it all a bit silly. Book equivalent of jumping the shark. Matter of opinion 

Yes because Cat is like completely back to normal and isn't just the shell of what she once was.

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Just now, HairGrowsBack said:

Yes because Cat is like completely back to normal and isn't just the shell of what she once was.

Irrelevant. That he brought her back in any capacity completely weakens the effect of any action in his books. 

Reading that was enough to almost make me not want to continue with the series. And considering how many other poor decisions Martin made after that point maybe I should have stopped.

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4 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Irrelevant. That he brought her back in any capacity completely weakens the effect of any action in his books. 

Reading that was enough to almost make me not want to continue with the series. And considering how many other poor decisions Martin made after that point maybe I should have stopped.

Completely relevant. That's what Martin does. He gives you what you've wanted for so long, and once you get it, you realise it's a poisoned gift. Theon, Jaime, Cersei, they all follow this pattern.

Everyone wanted to see beloved characters come back, and vengeance for the RW. But it all turns into ashes in our mouth. It makes Cat's story, and the RW story, even more tragic, because she isn't even allowed to rest in peace, she can't do anything but dwell on her family's tragedy, and revenge isn't just as satisfying to us as it should be. She has nothing left but bitterness, and a faint hope of getting her daughter(s) back. 

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19 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Completely relevant. That's what Martin does. He gives you what you've wanted for so long, and once you get it, you realise it's a poisoned gift. Theon, Jaime, Cersei, they all follow this pattern.

Everyone wanted to see beloved characters come back, and vengeance for the RW. But it all turns into ashes in our mouth. It makes Cat's story, and the RW story, even more tragic, because she isn't even allowed to rest in peace, she can't do anything but dwell on her family's tragedy, and revenge isn't just as satisfying to us as it should be. She has nothing left but bitterness, and a faint hope of getting her daughter(s) back. 

Absolutely on point!:cheers:

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Or it completely destroys the RW's impact and makes it all a bit silly. Book equivalent of jumping the shark. 

Definitely. Because Robb is now less dead than he was, and the slain Northern army is miraculously preserved, and Grey Wind is barking again. And even Cat seems to gain some health and youth in her stop-over in the afterlife.

This was a joke of course. and now for real. How the hell is LSH destroying the RW's impact? To think that, you have to absolutely ignore literally everything about the misery of Cat's new existence. Oh, and everything Beric said about resurrections. Oh, and also Thoros and his outright despair in AFFC.

Or, you can simply not read the books. Only a summary or two.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Matter of opinion 

I doubt that one can have an opinion about a book he didn't read. But I could be wrong.

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It is always astonishing to me when someone doesnt see LS as an extent of RW tragedy. The show not including her would have created problems - not an actual victim of RW leading vengence, Brienne's conflict of loyalty being gone and Beric being dead even if he only dies by giving his life to someone else. Having Cat in the role solves all of this.

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2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Or it completely destroys the RW's impact and makes it all a bit silly. Book equivalent of jumping the shark. Matter of opinion 

Actually it is more of a consequence of the RW fuck-up by the Freys. Most importantly - they didn't bury people as ought. If the Freys hadn't been so intent on desecrating a dead person (while we are equal in death), but simply gave Cat the common funeral rites of the RL (in a boat, set it afire with flaming arrows) then she couldn't have been resurrected. And there would be no LS. Things going wrong when people desecrate the funeral rites of the dead has been part of literature at least since ancient Greece (Sisyphus cheats death; Antigone punished for trying to burry her brother properly, commits suicide and the desecrator's son and heir who was her fiance commits suicide too; Priam's plea with Achilles for Hector's body) , and even dynastic Egypt if you count the Isis-Osiris Myth written on tombs as literature. Desecration is done by the culprit to prove their power, but in literature it classically empowers the dead, not the living.

And George is following in that tradition's footsteps with many storylines:

- Mance Rayder turns graverobber => Ygritte says things started to go very wrong after that, and it looks like that may have helped the Others with a wight army

- Ned worries about the rusting swords in the crypts in order to keep the dead locked into the crypts, and he has as of yet not been properly buried => Bran and Rickon nevertheless had dreams about him, Arya hears her father talk to her through he HH heart tree, Jon dreams of WF's heart tree with Ned's face. With Arya, Ned's "ghost" prompted her to escape HH

- Freys dump Cat's body in the river without funeral rites => Her body is resurrected and LS is born.

So, no it does not do away the impact of the RW, it is classic impact of desecration of the dead. To claim LS lessens the impact of the RW is like saying that the ghost of Hamlet's father telling Hamlet how he died lessen the impact of the muder that Hamlet attempts to avenge.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually it is more of a consequence of the RW fuck-up by the Freys. Most importantly - they didn't bury people as ought. If the Freys hadn't been so intent on desecrating a dead person (while we are equal in death), but simply gave Cat the common funeral rites of the RL (in a boat, set it afire with flaming arrows) then she couldn't have been resurrected. And there would be no LS. Things going wrong when people desecrate the funeral rites of the dead has been part of literature at least since ancient Greece (Sisyphus cheats death; Antigone punished for trying to burry her brother properly, commits suicide and the desecrator's son and heir who was her fiance commits suicide too; Priam's plea with Achilles for Hector's body) , and even dynastic Egypt if you count the Isis-Osiris Myth written on tombs as literature. Desecration is done by the culprit to prove their power, but in literature it classically empowers the dead, not the living.

And George is following in that tradition's footsteps with many storylines:

- Mance Rayder turns graverobber => Ygritte says things started to go very wrong after that, and it looks like that may have helped the Others with a wight army

- Ned worries about the rusting swords in the crypts in order to keep the dead locked into the crypts, and he has as of yet not been properly buried => Bran and Rickon nevertheless had dreams about him, Arya hears her father talk to her through he HH heart tree, Jon dreams of WF's heart tree with Ned's face. With Arya, Ned's "ghost" prompted her to escape HH

- Freys dump Cat's body in the river without funeral rites => Her body is resurrected and LS is born.

So, no it does not do away the impact of the RW, it is classic impact of desecration of the dead.

Really interesting post, thank you.

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5 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Really interesting post, thank you.

A burrial ritual is for decades regarded as a sign of being human. Whatever paleonthologists find as remains, once those remains have signs of a burrial ritual, that species is regarded as being of the human branch in the evolution of species. Hence, it is one of the most profound taboos and shocking things anybody can do in our eyes. And hence, it is classically seen as something that will always karmically bounce back twofold to bite the desecrator back. George didn't just write in desecration of dead in aSoIaF for shocks and giggles and make us think 'ooooh, how evil is such and such person'. He includes supernatural consequences for it.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A burrial ritual is for decades regarded as a sign of being human. Whatever paleonthologists find as remains, once those remains have signs of a burrial ritual, that species is regarded as being of the human branch in the evolution of species. Hence, it is one of the most profound taboos and shocking things anybody can do in our eyes. And hence, it is classically seen as something that will always karmically bounce back twofold to bite the desecrator back. George didn't just write in desecration of dead in aSoIaF for shocks and giggles and make us think 'ooooh, how evil is such and such person'. He includes supernatural consequences for it.

Now you've drawn my attention to it, it seems so obvious!  It's another facet of how well Martin layers his storytelling. :read:

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I liked Lady Stoneheart in the books, and did miss her in the show.

But in all fairness if she wasn't in the books and the show brought her back... the rage about how the show 'fanfiction' lessened the impact of the Red Wedding for SHOCK VALUE would melt this site.

 

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