Orange is the New Black

[DunderMifflin]

And also:

“There is definitely sex occurring, but it’s not happening in the showers with no shower curtain. If you get caught having sex in prison, you get a shot,” she said. “You go to the shoe, which is solitary confinement. So, the idea that you would have it so openly is… I never saw it. In fact, I might have stayed if that’d been the case. There’d be lines to get into prison if it was as much fun as ‘Orange Is the New Black’ shows it.”

        -Catherine Wolters, real person who the character Alex Vause is based on.

 

 

[DunderMifflin]

Yeh, it shouldn't have taken this long for you to sarcastically agree with such an obvious point

[DunderMifflin]

Wrong again, I made no comparison whatsoever with this show to any other shows.

So you saying that it's just as unrealistic as other tv shows is once again you making your own seperate point and trying to attach it to something I said.

It's not related.

[DunderMifflin]

11 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Uh, I never said that you did?

Then why even type that? 

How does this 

"exaggerated and gratuitous sex is all over TV, and thus in that regard OitNB is no less realistic than anything else on TV these days." 

relate to anything I said, why is it even there?

I'm not using it as a pejorative exactly.

I just said that comparing this show to any sort of reality is ridiculous. 

I then said that you cant just find a corner to have sex in anytime you want in prison.

Which you finally sarcastically agreed with after way too long

 

[DunderMifflin]

If you really wanted to grill me about something you should have went with were I said that the show was written by people who have never been around minorities or poor people because I'm not sure but I've heard most of the writers are white women who are ex convicts.

[DunderMifflin]

7 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Okay Imma simplify this as much as possible. You said the show is unrealistic in a specific regard. I said compared with most of what we see on TV these days it's really not.

But that's meaningless to anything that I said. Unless you are saying that I should consider this show realistic since other tv shows are also unrealistic.

[DunderMifflin]

I'm not trying to frustrate you here but you are saying stuff thats unrelated to what I'm talking about

[Commodore]

22 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well that's part of the point of the show. Piper Chapman is part of the obscenely over-educated liberal elite that's never actually been surrounded by poor people and minorities until she found herself in prison. If anything her character is kind of a poke at a certain aspect of the social-political left. Yes the writers are liberal, as is most of Hollywood, but I wouldn't call it bias. I mean they had a redemption arc this season for

  Reveal hidden contents

a rapist.

I wouldn't exactly call that liberal propaganda.

The corporate structure is portrayed as pretty evil, but that's also been the theme since the beginning (and it's also kind of true).

My one beef this season in terms of what you're talking about is that I think they took a pretty unflattering view of

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veterans.

 

my point is that every hot take from Salon.com is clumsily inserted into the dialogue of prison inmates

 

[Dr. Pepper]

11 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

I'm not trying to frustrate you here but you are I'm  saying stuff that's unrelated to what I'm talking about

FTFY

 

[DunderMifflin]

No you didnt. You just wanted to do something douchey

[PetyrPunkinhead]

 

So I just finished S4 and it was pretty great. It's a much more intense finale than S3 and I like the fact they left us on a cliffhanger. A few spoileriffic notes on S4...

Spoiler

I really should've seen it coming for Poussey when things started going too well for her. If I've learned nothing from six seasons of Game of Thrones I should've at least learned that! That flashback was heartbreaking though knowing how she ended up.

Judy King turned out to be much more interesting than I would've expected. Even though Luschek and Skinny Yoga regret ever meeting Judy, I'm glad she was in this season.

The fire has officially fizzled between Alex & Pipes. Caputo had a more interestinglove affair, not to mention overall storyline than either one of them this season. I don't think Piper will be on the show or in Litchfield after S5. Five seasons for a 15 month sentence seems like more than enough. Plus, Piper hasn't been the "main" character since season 2 really. It transitioned into much ore of an ensemble show in S3, but Pipes still had a strong storyline. S4 was a flat out ensemble. I think the writers are transitioning viewers for a Piper-less show. Or maybe we'll follow her outside of prison like Dy's mom and the show will get all meta as Piper writes the book the series is based on. Eh, I say that's a long shot though.

Speaking of Dy's mom. I really hope we continue with her and she stays the fuck outta prison. Taystee got out and transitioned back in quickly,and that was back in, what was it, S2? I'd really like the show to examine a con's life on the outside and really show the struggles to stay afloat. Dy's mom has the chance for a lot of good drama in her story on the outside.

And I think with Suzanne (who had maybe my favorite flashback this season--talk about rough) and Lolly both being in PSYCH will mean the show will examine that aspect of the prison system in S5.

 

 

 

On 6/20/2016 at 0:36 AM, Commodore said:

show would be more enjoyable without the writers constantly using their characters to advance their pet lefty causes

it's very transparent/contrived/unrealistic when they do that

I agree there can certainly be dialogue that feels crowbarred in, but I almost always forgive it. One of the reasons I keep coming back to this show is that it challenges my POV on certain issues and I like learning about POVs alternate from my own. (Said Donald Trump never.)  Also, the writers have taken something seemingly crowbarred in before and turned it into gold. For example, one of the best storylines for S3 was Afro-Puffs Cindy's conversion to Judaism. At first I thought this was just crowbarred in the series but Cindy's conversion and her speech to the rabbi were some of the best scenes last season. Unfortunately, that great bit of character development went by the wayside in S4 . . .

Spoiler

save for a weak Jerusalem v Palestine parody and some random drop-in lines. I mean, we didn't get even one scene in S4 with Cindy and the inmate who helped in her conversion. I thought for sure she'd show up in the finale to help Tovah sit shiva for Poussey. Cindy did make an offhand comment about sitting shiva in S4E12, but it all felt like a missed opportunity and out of character for Cindy based on her speech in S3.

 

 

On 6/20/2016 at 0:43 AM, DunderMifflin said:

I have the same complaints about that unbreakable kimmy show.

OiTNB is definately politically biased but I expected that from the get go so it's not a shock.

I'm actually surprised they didn't go the super safe route and make all the men be maniacal rapists and all the gay people be morally superior to everyone else. They even made Sophia do some douchey and morally ambigous stuff.

You must be referring to season 3 with Sophia there because she wasn't in season 4 much at all. Which is one of my complaints about how time is managed on the show. I mentioned before that Piper is  supposed to be in prison for 15 months and we're on season four--in which people mention weeks and months going by. So exactly how long was Sophia in SHU in "real time"? 

[DunderMifflin]

1 hour ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

 

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I really should've seen it coming for Poussey when things started going too well for her. If I've learned nothing from six seasons of Game of Thrones I should've at least learned that! That flashback was heartbreaking though knowing how she ended up.

Judy King turned out to be much more interesting than I would've expected. Even though Luschek and Skinny Yoga regret ever meeting Judy, I'm glad she was in this season.

The fire has officially fizzled between Alex & Pipes. Caputo had a more interestinglove affair, not to mention overall storyline than either one of them this season. I don't think Piper will be on the show or in Litchfield after S5. Five seasons for a 15 month sentence seems like more than enough. Plus, Piper hasn't been the "main" character since season 2 really. It transitioned into much ore of an ensemble show in S3, but Pipes still had a strong storyline. S4 was a flat out ensemble. I think the writers are transitioning viewers for a Piper-less show. Or maybe we'll follow her outside of prison like Dy's mom and the show will get all meta as Piper writes the book the series is based on. Eh, I say that's a long shot though.

Speaking of Dy's mom. I really hope we continue with her and she stays the fuck outta prison. Taystee got out and transitioned back in quickly,and that was back in, what was it, S2? I'd really like the show to examine a con's life on the outside and really show the struggles to stay afloat. Dy's mom has the chance for a lot of good drama in her story on the outside.

And I think with Suzanne (who had maybe my favorite flashback this season--talk about rough) and Lolly both being in PSYCH will mean the show will examine that aspect of the prison system in S5.

 

 

You must be referring to season 3 with Sophia there because she wasn't in season 4 much at all. Which is one of my complaints about how time is managed on the show. I mentioned before that Piper is  supposed to be in prison for 15 months and we're on season four--in which people mention weeks and months going by. So exactly how long was Sophia in SHU in "real time"? 

Yeh I think it was season 3, It was the storyline with Sophia and her wife. She was kind of inconsiderate of her point of view.

Idk, does Nikki ever say how long she was in max? Didn't she go around the same time Sophia went to shu?

[DunderMifflin]

In ep4 when Caputo goes to see Sophia she tells him "I've been shouting your name for months" then he says "you have not been down here that long"

At the NA meeting in ep6 Nicky claims to be sober for 3 years but wasn't she getting high back at Litchfield?

When Nicky and Lorna are arguing about Lorna getting married Nicky says "It's been like months, how did you even find someone"

I guess there are timeline flaws so they are just going to say everything happened within the span of "months"

[Castel]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:52 AM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well that's part of the point of the show. Piper Chapman is part of the obscenely over-educated liberal elite that's never actually been surrounded by poor people and minorities until she found herself in prison. If anything her character is kind of a poke at a certain aspect of the social-political left. Yes the writers are liberal, as is most of Hollywood, but I wouldn't call it bias. I mean they had a redemption arc this season for

  Reveal hidden contents

a rapist.

I wouldn't exactly call that liberal propaganda.

The corporate structure is portrayed as pretty evil, but that's also been the theme since the beginning (and it's also kind of true).

My one beef this season in terms of what you're talking about is that I think they took a pretty unflattering view of

  Reveal hidden contents

veterans.

 

People keep saying it, but I don't know how redemptive that arc was. By the end the whole thing wraps round to being a bit weird again. 

[Dr. Pepper]

Yeah, Coates at the end was still the same rapist, only a more manipulative one.  As Big Boo stated, he'll always be a rapist.  Coates is sort of the face that represents rape culture.  He thinks what he did was fine because he said I love you.  He's not upset to realize he completely violated another person or that he committed a heinous crime.  He's bummed that Tiffany is ignoring him.  He probably thought that bullshit there at the end where he's saying he's working so hard to hold himself back was somehow romantic or an indication that he's a changed man.  But he's not.  He's still a rapist.  

[Morpheus]

I don't think Doughnuts had a redemptive arc, I think he just highlighted how cartoonishly evil the new crop of guards were. He belived that you shouldn't let a prisoner bleed out in front of you and that it was sad someone was killed, hardly heroic principles. Piscatell and Humps and the lot are straight up all around psychopaths, but Doughnuts is still a creepy obsessive rapist. He thinks he deserves a cookie for resisting the urge to further abuse Dogget.

[DunderMifflin]

That line where Donuts says something like "it's taking everything I have to stop myself from throwing you down and fucking you" was so WTF?!?!?!?!?!

[HexMachina]

Just finished it last night, overall good, with the he latter half of the season, and particularly the last few episode, being excellent. Some really funny moments, and some obviously very emotional moments.

Cliffhanger ending was a big surprise. Though having it be Dayanara who picked up he gun? Weird choice and I can only assume it's because they want her to play a bigger role next season, since she was almost a non-entity this season. 

Not sure I really bought Maria he gang leader. I don't feel like the actress really convinced me on that front, 

One story which was given only a little time but really got to me was Morello's. Sure, we already knew about the lying, delusion and paranoia and so on, but it was heart-breaking to see it so explicitly this season. Suzanne's backstory was devastating. 

Aleida getting out was unexpected and I hope we get to see her living on the outside for a while, rather than going straight back to prison. 

Inwould have liked to see more of Sophia's story, though I liked seeing Mary and Gloria care about her. It just feels like a bit of a shame that she was so scarce is season after the attack on her last year.

Poussey's death really hurt me. I think it was Taystee screaming that set me off crying but ow, sad. And of course it would be Bayley who was the culprit, the only halfway decent guard in the damn prison. The rest of them are all pieces of shit (which I didn't really like but nevermind. 

[Castel]

7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doughnuts is still a rapist, and a very sick man. And he should be locked up for what he did to Dogette.

That being said, they did depict him as a human being with redeemable qualities. It's kind of a step darker from what they did with Healey. I mean we can all see that Mr. Healey does care about people, and he is a sympathetic character, but he also has some serious issues about control and sexuality, and he should NOT be working around vulnerable women from a position of power.

To be absolutely clear, when I said doughnuts had a redemption arc, I did not mean that it redeemed what he did to Dogette.

So he was humanized, he wasn't redeemed. 

Ever since Jaime's arc I've always vaguely thought (but found difficult to articulate) redemption was a bit of a heavy word for some of these cases (as opposed to "humanized") and this example may be showing why.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

But what actually had Donuts done to be considered on a redemption arc?  You use Theon as a comparative example, but there are actions within Theon's story that would fulfill elements of a standard redemption arc.  He's been brutally punished, for one.  He's saved Jeyne, may have helped to create discord among the inhabitants of Winterfell depending on what Hooded Man theory you believe.  The Theon of the show has helped Sansa escape, he's now supporting his sister's claim to the Iron Islands.  

The only thing Donuts has done is not rape Doggett again, though he still sort of assaulted her and warned her that it's likely to happen again in the future because he doesn't have control over his own penis.  He's received no punishment or consequences for his actions.  So where is the redemption?

I agree with Castel that it's more accurate to say that he's been humanized.  Humanizing the characters, even the worst of the worst, is a consistent theme throughout the series.  The person who caused the death of a child is still as human as the person serving time for a couple of joints is still as human as the person who raped a woman.  They are all more than what they've done, even if they committed the most heinous of crimes.  

It's also relative.  Next to Piper, Suzanne is a saint.  Next to soldiers who have been poorly integrated back into civilian life and poorly trained for their jobs, Donuts looks better than he is.