Why is Tywin Lannister hated while Brynden Tully is not?

[John Doe]

First, I want to disclaim that I don't want to adress or defend the rape of Tysha here.

However, as I read it, this not by far not the only reason Tywin is hated, as he is often criticized for his ruthlessness and lack of morals in the War of the Five Kings and the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion. However, Brynden displayed similiar ruthlessness when throwing the people he as lord is sworn to protect (so not even his enemies) out of Riverrun, pillaging the surroundings of the castle to let them starve, wanting to take every man in the castle with him to a utterly fruitless death in his Bunker ancestral family seat.

Tywin is hated for disrespected Tyrion, some people even falsely claim he wanted to have him killed, while the Blackfish appearently gets away with constantly disresprecting his nephew (who also happens to be his superior) and blaming him for rightfully defending the fords, bullying him into marrying a Frey (while he himself did not marry when his lord told him to), even having him nearly killed during the siege of Riverrun.

So where does this difference come from? Is it Stark bias or are there any other reasons?

[Sullen]

He serves the Starks, that's going to shield him from some amount of criticism.

Also, nothing he does is that bad, and we see Tywin through Tyrion's eyes while we never see the Blackfish from Edmure's. I suppose readers wouldn't necessarily find the character as appealing if we saw him constantly belittle and berate the PoV character/reader stand-in.

[Humble Maester]

Tywin has a lot more bad deeds under his belt (and much more severe) than Brynden does though. I do think that Brynden might be the kind of commander that would use chevauchée tactics like Tywin did in the war if it was in his benefit. I am not sure if he'd quite do what Tywin did to Reynes and Tarbecks though.

War is always ugly, no matter who wages it.

He serves the Starks, that's going to shield him from some amount of criticism.

Also, nothing he does is that bad, and we see Tywin through Tyrion's eyes while we never see the Blackfish from Edmure's. I suppose readers wouldn't necessarily find the character as appealing if we saw him constantly belittle and berate the PoV character/reader stand-in.

And then there is always the fact that we pretty much always see Tywin through the eyes of someone who utterly hates him.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

I guess it for me, along with what Sullen Sellsword said, comes down to the fact that Tywin does what he does for his families name, whilst Brunden does it for the family he knows. Tywin says he went to war not for Tyrion, but because of the shame that would be brought to House Lannister if he didn't. Brynden abandons his post as Knight of The Gate because his family is in trouble, and he wanted to help whether that be with 40,000 soldiers from the Vale or by himself. So yeah, that is what I think is the biggest difference.

[The Wolves]

The Sack of Kings Landing

Elia and her two babies

Tysha and her heinous rape

The Reyne and Tarbeck children

The Riverlands

The creation of Cersei and Jaime(I blame Joanna for this also)

I can't stand the Blackfish but when he has surpassed Tywin in all this touching the lives of millions through very evil acts and crimes than the question of why he isn't hated like Tywin can be asked.

[Lion of the West]

He serves the Starks, that's going to shield him from some amount of criticism.

Also, nothing he does is that bad, and we see Tywin through Tyrion's eyes while we never see the Blackfish from Edmure's. I suppose readers wouldn't necessarily find the character as appealing if we saw him constantly belittle and berate the PoV character/reader stand-in.

I think you nailed it.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Sorry, but why is Tysha off-limits? It's a defining moment of Tywin as a parent and moralist, and while we don't have any moments of parenting by the Blackfish to compare it to both men's entire life deeds surely need to be compared to make this work.

But even if you want to ignore that, Brynden never orders the death of children, while Tywin has. That right there should be enough to separate the two men.

[John Doe]

I guess it for me, along with what Sullen Sellsword said, comes down to the fact that Tywin does what he does for his families name, whilst Brunden does it for the family he knows. Tywin says he went to war not for Tyrion, but because of the shame that would be brought to House Lannister if he didn't. Brynden abandons his post as Knight of The Gate because his family is in trouble, and he wanted to help whether that be with 40,000 soldiers from the Vale or by himself. So yeah, that is what I think is the biggest difference.

But he would have the nephew he knew killed over a dead Stark.

Tywin has a lot more bad deeds under his belt (and much more severe) than Brynden does though.

Well, he did give orders to burn down the Riverlands, but Brynden used a scorched earth tactic himself at Riverrun, which is arguably worse since the smallfolk there wasn't a threat or his enemies, but the people he should have protected.

[Nihlus]

One, the scale of the crimes. Tywin is possibly the worst mass murderer in Westeros history due to his actions in the Riverlands.

Two, Brynden isn't a rapist. A rapist is instantly less sympathetic than a non-rapist, even if both are effectively murderers.

Of course, being Stark-aligned is also a factor (see: Janos Slynt). Not only was his stand at Riverrun frighteningly stupid, but had it gone the way Brynden wanted, he probably would have been responsible for a lot more civilian deaths than some really hated characters. Edmure again appears to be the sole sane person in the Riverlands, Westerlands, and North.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

The Sack of Kings Landing

Elia and her two babies

Tysha and her heinous rape

The Reyne and Tarbeck children

The Riverlands

The creation of Cersei and Jaime(I blame Joanna for this also)

I can't stand the Blackfish but when he has surpassed Tywin in all this touching the lives of millions through very evil acts and crimes than the question of why he isn't hated like Tywin can be asked.

Blaming a woman who died when the two kids were like what eight? For what they turned out as, bit extreme

[John Doe]

Sorry, but why is Tysha off-limits?

Because I want to adress the double standard that Tywin is hated for similiar actions Brynden does, while the latter is not. Taking Tysha into the equation would defeat the purpose of the thread.

I feel like I should ignore thewolves at a topic involving Tywin.

[TeethGrinder]

"If we put aside the organised gang rape of his daughter in law..."

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

He serves the Starks, that's going to shield him from some amount of criticism.

Also, nothing he does is that bad, and we see Tywin through Tyrion's eyes while we never see the Blackfish from Edmure's. I suppose readers wouldn't necessarily find the character as appealing if we saw him constantly belittle and berate the PoV character/reader stand-in.

Yep.

[John Doe]

One, the scale of the crimes. Tywin is possibly the worst mass murderer in Westeros history due to his actions in the Riverlands.

Two, Brynden isn't a rapist. A rapist is instantly less sympathetic than a non-rapist, even if both are effectively murderers.

Read the OP.

Only if you have a very optimistic and unrealistic understanding of medieval warfare. Also, explain how Brynden's scorched earth policy was better.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

The Sack of Kings Landing

Elia and her two babies

Tysha and her heinous rape

The Reyne and Tarbeck children

The Riverlands

The creation of Cersei and Jaime(I blame Joanna for this also)

I can't stand the Blackfish but when he has surpassed Tywin in all this touching the lives of millions through very evil acts and crimes than the question of why he isn't hated like Tywin can be asked.

Pretty much agree with this. I don't think they are even close with their ruthlessness. The story of the Reynes is horrid and then to parade around that song of a proud genocide.

[John Doe]

"If we put aside the organised gang rape of his daughter in law..."

So you think this is the only reason Tywin is hated?

[Nihlus]

Read the OP.

Only if you have a very optimistic and unrealistic understanding of medieval warfare. Also, explain how Brynden's scorched earth policy was better.

"Not counting when he raped his daughter in law fifty times, why do people dislike Tywin more than this other guy?"

Lower scale. No unnecessary rape and slaughter.

Surprisingly enough, the 15th century wasn't all grimderp. The conflict the books draw inspiration from, the War of the Roses, saw very few crimes as heinous as what Tywin does every Tuesday. Destruction described on the scale of Tywin's crimes would result in tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths now, and over a million deaths in the next winter. Tywin is the one with an unrealistic understanding of warfare. You can't pull this shit in a 15th century pseudo-British civil war. When an army was 1% as cruel as Tywin's in the actual War of the Roses, it screwed them over hard.

[Lost Umber]

Brynden's actions at Riverrun are during the defense of the castle against Tywin's forces.... I don't see any reason to blame Brynden for doing what he thinks will give the Riverlands the best chance to win and thus allow as many as possible to survive. (Blame Tywin)

His other option was to cram all the peasants in the castle and let the Lannisters set up a siege with plenty of resources at hand... that's a really bad idea.

Brynden can be hard and is no saint, but he not in the same league as Tywin for ruthless aggression.

Plus Brynden has a really cool nickname....

[John Doe]

"Aside from raping his daughter in law fifty times, why do people dislike Tywin more than this other guy?"

So the rape is already excluded.

How was the slaughter he intended for his last standing at Riverrun necessary?

[John Doe]

Brynden's actions at Riverrun are during the defense of the castle against Tywin's forces.... I don't see any reason to blame Brynden for doing what he thinks will give the Riverlands the best chance to win and thus allow as many as possible to survive. (Blame Tywin)

His other option was to cram all the peasants in the castle and let the Lannisters set up a siege with plenty of resources at hand... that's a really bad idea.

But he was already defeated. A blind man could have seen that.

So, it made no sense letting his castle be destroyed, his dynasty killed and his smallfolk starved just for the sake of a glorious death. At least Tywin had some sense of duty.