[Book Spoilers]What was really wrong with Hound v Brienne

[GrizzlyUK]

I know that this scene has been discussed a lot previously and lots of people don't like it, but I think the real problem has been over looked. The fight itself was brilliant, very exciting and filled with real passion - it would have been slightly improved if Brienne had collapsed to the ground after the pounding she had taken and started shouting for Pod to go after Arya rather than running around like everything was fine, but I consider that a minor point. The real problem with the fight was that it happened at all.

The Hound is a character who at first seems very well suited to this world: he's big, he's strong, he's prepared to do unpleasant things. This makes him very valuable to those with money. Physical might is needed in this world to hold power so that means that those in power want people like the Hound around. So many others are victims in this story such as Ned because of his honour, or the butchers boy because of his low standing, or Sansa because of her naivety (and the list could go on...). The Hound on the other hand seems to be just the sort of character that this world was designed for. But as the story progresses we start to see that this isn't quite right. He lacks freedom because he is forced to do what those in command ask. The immoral acts he commits (on behalf of others) start to take their toll on him. He becomes an outlaw. He is rejected by everyone - his family, his former employers, even his only travelling companion at the end.

(In the books) His death is pointless and undramatic. He is killed*, not in some epic fight to the death, not even as the result of a fight he lost. It is just as the result of an injury sustained in a bar fight that he won. It achieved nothing, it was just one of those things that happens. He is left alone, dying, afraid, and feeling terrible about the things he has done. What this shows us is that he is not one of the great heroes or champions of this story - he is another one of the victims. He is used by others and once they reject him he has nothing left and he is powerless. His death is appropriate to the characters arc because it reminds us of his strength in that he wins the fight and is only injured because he is drunk, but it also shows us how little he really has as he slowly dies alone.

(In the show) His death is dramatic and exciting. It's a great showdown between two legendary warriors. It's the stuff of comic books. As viewers I think it is what we crave, but in this case I think we're better not getting what we want. It allows us to forget that Sandor has been wronged and cheated in so many ways. In the Guardian Ben Childs writes "Here Clegane experiences a meaningful death at the hands of Brienne of Tarth" as if this makes the show better. But that is backwards, it is a better scene, but not a better story. It obscures the fact that his life was really meaningless and tragic.

In the books Sandor Clegane's story teaches us something important about this world - that's what gives it meaning. In the show, by trying to give his death some meaning, it confuses and obscures.

*Ok, so he is probably not dead, but I like to think that the Hound died here even if Sandor lives on. I think this becomes an even more plausible reading given that he is seperated from his helmet.

[fear2433]

People with any good in them tend to die in GoT ;) You must know that by now.

Mountain is pure evil, yet he will live because of Qubrn.

Hound is more "honorable" (though thats not the right word)

The scene itself was OK. Yes she is a huge woman and could have easily matched the hound. And Yes she should have taken a minute.

But I hate it when this fight is constantly discussed. Irritating feminists always tend to flood the thread with "haha girl wins" comments.

Had the hound won, again they would have flooded the thread with "sexist" comments

Anyway the hound was not a good warrior, just a dog :)

Brienne fought her way to get Renly's acceptance

[roxWolfox]

The Hound is servant/dog to the Lannisters. The Hound runs away from the Lannisters because of fear and cruelty of the masters. The Hound latches onto the Stark, who isn't so cruel. The Hound *dies* in his attempt to protect the Stark from a lesser servant in apparent service to said cruel masters.

What is so difficult to understand?

You seem to wish show watchers would start writing papers on their perceptions/observations, without taking into consideration that this show is a one hour (more or less) form of escapism.

In other words, that may work for The Wire - a show based on real life events, but not for Game of Thrones - a show based on fantasy. This one contains Dragons, Magicks and Ice Zombies, after all. ;)

edit: Eep! My manners!

Welcome to the boards, GrizzlyUK! :cheers:

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't know, I think Sandor and Arya vs Polliver, Tickler and Random Squire was a pretty epic fight as well

In fact, I think the Brienne fight was even more tragically pointless because it was just a misunderstanding on top of a chanced encounter instead of the epic and deserved revenge on the Mountain's Men

The one thing I didn't like about the entire sequence in the show was that they made Arya way more cold-blooded, while in the book her refusal to kill Sandor was a bit more ambiguous

[Jasta11]

A comic book fight? I disagree. They end up punching and kicking the hell out of each other, Brienne eats Sandor's ear, they both hit each other in the crotch, and Brienne wins by bashing his head in with a rock. I don't read much comic books, but that is as realistic a fight as you can get between two desperate people.

Plus, the entire fight is pointless. These two people broadly want the same thing, to protect Arya. They fight over it, and in the end neither of them can keep her by their side as she flees to Braavos. It's certainly not a meaningful, epic battle with the fate of kingdoms at stake.

[Ritter]

Overall I think it was the best fight the TV show has done. It was just so damn brutal and realistic that I loved it. The Hound and Brienne meeting up was unrealistic, but the result was worth it imo.

[Paid Debt Lannister]

I just think that people got very excited with the fight itself (and I admit, it was really well done) and by the fact Brienne won (somehow people think this adds to the show being feminist...) that they don't see how flawed this scene was.

You're at the season 4 finale, an episode filled with important scenes and cliffhangers, and two characters randomly meet on the road, both wanting to protect Arya Stark. They change some curses and a few minutes later are in a fight to death, eating ears and stuff. It just scalated way too quickly. When you put the Hound against the Mountain's men, you can understand his reasons to go so far in the fight. But I don't think either him or Brienne would kill each other (specially Brienne, actually. She saw that Arya wanted to stay with the Hound. Still she just went there and killed him, and tried to kidnap Arya).

Just to be clear: by no means the problem of the scene is Brienne winning. I've read a lot of people claiming that this is what bothers people, and it is not. The problem to me is how anti-character it felt for both of them to just assassinate the other after a random meeting on the road. It felt stupid, and made me despise both characters for acting so idiotic. If you compare it with Brienne's fight against Rorge and Biter, you get her actually giving her all to protect the people from the inn against real psycopaths who've been killing and raping people through all book 4. She has a clear number disadvantage, but still acts as a true knight (even though she is not one), protecting the innocent. She kills Rorge (who is also a big guy) in a one against one combat. This scene made me respect and admire Brienne very much, for seeing her acting as a true hero at the same time that it showed how tough she is. The fight against the Hound made me see show Brienne as a very strong yet very stupid person. She is not protecting anyone (Arya is not in immediate danger) and does not kill a true villain, who's been harming lots of people (at least if you compare season 4 Hound with book 4 Rorge).

Sorry for the long post, by the way.

[Dragon in the North]

^It would have been out of character for the Hound to trust Brienne, and it would have been out of character for Brienne to leave Arya in the Hound's possession. The fight was inevitable, imo.

[Beric175]

I think it's the best deviation the show has done to date and they built up naturally to that scene by getting both of the pairs to the Vale.

[fear2433]

A comic book fight? I disagree. They end up punching and kicking the hell out of each other, Brienne eats Sandor's ear, they both hit each other in the crotch, and Brienne wins by bashing his head in with a rock. I don't read much comic books, but that is as realistic a fight as you can get between two desperate people.

:agree:

@OP

Hollywood if filled with extremely unrealistic stuff like BlackWidow(Avengers), ResidentEvil,300 RoE etc.

The same thing happens in period films and series. Women who can't lift a sword doing unrealistic shit.

A typical hollywood scene :)

Dude towers over a tiny woman

Dude:Haha you are a woman

Woman: Step aside you'll be sorry

Dude: What are you gonna do?

Woman flies around on a rope. Unrealistic stunts. Dude is on the floor. 50 Dudes rush to his aid. Woman kicks them all to the floor.

Woman: Anyone else?

Now GoT

But Brienne is huge, and is entirely capable of what she did. The fight was wild lunging and punching. Hitting each other with rocks. Look around today OP. You won't find those hollywood fights but you will find this.

The fight was the most realistic fight between a man and a woman I have EVER seen in TV or films.

[Rex999]

two characters randomly meet on the road, both wanting to protect Arya Stark. They change some curses and a few minutes later are in a fight to death, eating ears and stuff. It just scalated way too quickly. When you put the Hound against the Mountain's men, you can understand his reasons to go so far in the fight. But I don't think either him or Brienne would kill each other (specially Brienne, actually. She saw that Arya wanted to stay with the Hound.

1. (Two characters randomly meet on the road)

They don't randomly meet

The hound was coming from the vale and brienne was going to it

2. (They change some curses and a few minutes later are in a fight to death)

No they didn't

It was very clear that Brienne was not trying to kill the hound during that sword fight because she told him to surrender after she beat him.

it was not until the hound started to fight dirty that it became a fight to death and fight for survival

3. (She saw that Arya wanted to stay with the Hound)

This is classic example of people knowing more than the character they are watching

we know why Arya wanted to stay with the hound since we spend 2 seasons watching them together

Brienne doesn't know any of that

for all she knows the girl could have been brainwashed just like Theon

The idea that she would leave Arya with someone like The Hound is ridiculous and completely out of character

[Bran's Legs]

Great topic. Maybe the Hound's death in the book is more about Arya's development as a character. You get some of that in the show but the epic fight obscures it a bit. The Hound was an abused animal, so to speak.

[GrizzlyUK]

Thanks for the comments everyone. What I was trying to do with this post was move the discussion about this scene away from the pointless debate about whether a girl can beat a boy in a fight. It seems to me that this scene is a very significant change from the books in terms of what we should think about the hound. I think it is a bad change but even if you disagree I think it is worth talking about.

I think it's bad for the story even though I think the scene itself is very good. I just feel that the writers have sacrificed the story in order to create a good scene.

I think my point about it being a comic book fight has been misunderstood. I wasn't commenting on what the fight looked like or how realistic it was. What I mean is that there is a popular strand of comic books that divide people into ordinary people and super people (some are heroes and others are villains). Watching super people beat up ordinary people gets boring after a while so what we really want are showdowns between super people. I felt that this fight scene came across a bit like that, but that seems to fly in the face of what game of thrones is trying to do. I can just imagine a bunch of people sitting around in the writers' room trying to come up with ideas for the episode and somebody says "hey, you know what would be cool, to see the hound fight brienne", and someone replies "but how would fit in the story?" "Who cares, it will look awesome."

[sj4iy]

Those who didn't like it really disliked it because it wasn't like the books.

[aFeastForDragons]

When the hound grabs the Valarian blade shouldn't his fingers have sliced off?

[Mad Madam Mim]

I know that this scene has been discussed a lot previously and lots of people don't like it, but I think the real problem has been over looked. The fight itself was brilliant, very exciting and filled with real passion - it would have been slightly improved if Brienne had collapsed to the ground after the pounding she had taken and started shouting for Pod to go after Arya rather than running around like everything was fine, but I consider that a minor point. The real problem with the fight was that it happened at all.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, the fight was awsome but why the frick did it happen! It felt utterly contrived. But the actual fight was truly brilliant.

I personally really liked the way it happened in the book; he rocks up at a tavern filled with Gregor's men and gets shit-faced drunk and gets into a brawl. His behaviour was almost suicidal, like he just had enough and tried to go out with a blast.

[Nolan Clegane]

I agree with the "it didn't fit the story" sentiment. Arya was very indifferent throughout, and in all honesty, I felt she would have been more keen to embrace him, despite his wrong-doings. Back to the point, I really like Rory McCann, and feel he plays that part perfectly, maybe the best played part in the show, it's the people around him that don't always live up to their roles. Brienne-while I like most of her scenes in the show, I didn't buy that encounter. She was unscathed from that battle... Come on, please.

There's a certain pathos that both book Hound and show Hound create in the viewer/reader. He is very real. He is filled with remorse, he has both good and bad qualities, and he is very aware of the world around him. Some of the smartest characters lack this sense. Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Cersei, Robb and Cat Stark... Sandor is complicated. He has his own code, and that too is complicated.

[Sammy the Schnoz]

It was a great scene, such a nasty tussle, probably the best in the series. Not even the traditionally shitty fight-directing couldn't ruin it.

[Frumpus]

I hate the scene not because people insist the Hound would have won, but because it's between two characters the audience is rooting for, and it's really unsettling to have something like that and not end in a tie. Also I would have preferred that they gave the chance to have the Hound reappear, and having him fight Brienne ruins that chance.

[roxWolfox]

Thanks for the comments everyone. What I was trying to do with this post was move the discussion about this scene away from the pointless debate about whether a girl can beat a boy in a fight. It seems to me that this scene is a very significant change from the books in terms of what we should think about the hound. I think it is a bad change but even if you disagree I think it is worth talking about.

I think it's bad for the story even though I think the scene itself is very good. I just feel that the writers have sacrificed the story in order to create a good scene.

I think my point about it being a comic book fight has been misunderstood. I wasn't commenting on what the fight looked like or how realistic it was. What I mean is that there is a popular strand of comic books that divide people into ordinary people and super people (some are heroes and others are villains). Watching super people beat up ordinary people gets boring after a while so what we really want are showdowns between super people. I felt that this fight scene came across a bit like that, but that seems to fly in the face of what game of thrones is trying to do. I can just imagine a bunch of people sitting around in the writers' room trying to come up with ideas for the episode and somebody says "hey, you know what would be cool, to see the hound fight brienne", and someone replies "but how would fit in the story?" "Who cares, it will look awesome."

What you seem to be overlooking is the fact that this is a tv show about fantastical creatures and events, based (or adapted if you prefer) on a series of books of said fantastical creatures and events. Pure entertainment for watchers and readers....

The fight between Brienne and Sandor was no less fantastical than other events (and entertaining for those who love watching people bash each other's heads in).