Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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What I got out of it.



[1] Setup Setup Setup. Nothing really happens in this chapter. It's all setup for whatever is going to happen next, presumably with the coming tournament to serve as the setting. No wonder GRRM and his editor decided to bump it.



[2] "Lemon-gate" continues: We now learn that those lemons do not grow in the Vale. When they run out, they have to be imported .... all the way from Dorne. Not even from somewhere closer like Pentos, or the Stormlands. Note that the Vale is about 200 miles SOUTH of Braavos.



[3] Stark Girls Love Lemon Cakes. Arya & Sansa's love for lemon cakes keeps getting mentioned. Even Sweetrobin's love of lemoncakes is secondary to Sansa's. Is this symbolic in some way?



[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.



[5] Sweetrobin's Burning Ears: How does he know what Harry is saying behind his back? Did a little bird tell him? Is Robin a bird-warg? Does this explain the flapping he does when he goes in his fits?


Edited by ChillyPolly

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[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.

Considering we've now spent 8 chapters on Brienne trying to find Sansa fruitlessly, and ended her story on a completely unrelated cliffhanger, I'd be reasonably certain they're not going to resolve the situation with Stoneheart and solve the whole mystery of Sansa's disappearance offscreen.

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Considering we've now spent 8 chapters on Brienne trying to find Sansa fruitlessly, and ended her story on a completely unrelated cliffhanger, I'd be reasonably certain they're not going to resolve the situation with Stoneheart and solve the whole mystery of Sansa's disappearance offscreen.

I don't agree. I think Brienne's arc is converging on Sansa, and may well do so at the tournament. Remember, Brienne is one of the few people who knows that Sansa loves lemon-cakes, and Sansa has just advertised her love of lemon-cakes all over the Vale.

I think Brienne (UnBrienne?) will appear at the tournament, and we see her through Sansa's eyes [as a him?]. The readers will share Sansa's ignorance, and find out about this Mystery Knight only as Sansa finds out.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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I know that Shadrich is there for a reason - but I don't see how he could just grab Sansa and head to KL all by his lonesome. It's not easy to sneak in or out of the Vale - I recall that during the Great Spring Sickness, the Vale was spared because the ruling lord closed off Gulltown and the roads, quarantining the Vale. LF is already having the ports watched. It's going to take more than one guy with visions of gold dragons dancing in his head to get Sansa anywhere far. Shadrich is going to have to have quite a bit of help (and it would be interesting to see if he does) or he won't get far.



It would certainly be interesting if Brienne turns up at the tournament! "Sansa, your mom is looking all over for you! Well, yes, she IS technically dead...emphasis on technically...." If Brienne is Un-Brienne at this point, then the Persephone allusions in Sansa's arc would take on more emphasis as Sansa becomes a kind of Queen of the Dead...


Edited by KittensRuleBeetsDrool

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I don't agree. I think Brienne's arc is converging on Sansa, and may well do so at the tournament. Remember, Brienne is one of the few people who knows that Sansa loves lemon-cakes, and Sansa has just advertised her love of lemon-cakes all over the Vale.

Brienne's arc hasn't been converging on Sansa's. She went out looking for Sansa, but she was following the wrong trail from the beginning, and after a few sidetrips eventually stumbled onto assorted members of Arya's supporting cast, before being reunited with "Catelyn", the person who gave her her mission in the beginning.

I know that Shadrich is there for a reason - but I don't see how he could just grab Sansa and head to KL all by his lonesome. It's not easy to sneak in or out of the Vale - I recall that during the Great Spring Sickness, the Vale was spared because the ruling lord closed off Gulltown and the roads, quarantining the Vale. LF is already having the ports watched. It's going to take more than one guy with visions of gold dragons dancing in his head to get Sansa anywhere far. Shadrich is going to have to have quite a bit of help (and it would be interesting to see if he does) or he won't get far.

My standing prediction is that he's going to try and fail, but in the process of failing shake up the status quo.

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[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.

*mumblemumble* Loras *mumblemumble*

Edited by Jon Weirgaryen

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Shadrich has no clear way to get himself and Sansa out of the Vale. He cannot go through the mountains as the passes are already closed (and it would be utterly stupid to take that road without a strong escort anyway). This would leave only a way by ship, and he is hundreds of leagues away from the coast. Even if he could reach a port he would also have to chance upon a ready ship - which could be possible if he works with Varys/Illyrio - but he cannot possibly hope to get her from the Gates to a port without being caught days before he arrives there. It just doesn't make any sense logistically. Now, if the gang goes to Gulltown or closer to the coast in future chapters things might change and real opportunities for such a thing may arise. But right now they are effectively impossible.



Not that I believe Shadrich wants to abduct Sansa. I really hope those whole abduction plot lines are over now.



On Littlefinger's motivation regarding Sansa:



We should note that Petyr already wanted to marry Sansa once - back after Ned was disgraced (Cersei remembers that in ADwD). I don't think he has lost that wish/desire. While Sansa is still Alayne, his daughter, he may be able to keep his desire in check but I really don't see him actually giving Sansa Stark's hand away in marriage. Especially not to Harrold Hardyng. That would be my main reason for the assumption that he may have 'other plans' for Harry.



I'm also not inclined to believe he wants to have sex with Sansa prior to their marriage. That would spoil the fun as he cannot want her to deliver his bastard - if he actually cares about fathering a dynasty. With a character like him that's far from clear. He may actually only care becoming a great man himself not necessarily the father of a dynasty, although that would be the usual mindset of a nobleman. And he is very aware of his own heritage.



Surprise guests:



I doubt that Sandor or Brienne/Jaime will show up in the Vale. It seems as if major stuff is going to happen in the Riverlands (which is why I think Brynden Tully is not going to pay the Vale a visit, either), and I see Jaime/Brienne returning to/be drawn into events in KL rather than someplace else. And Sandor should be drawn to KL, too, when he learns about the abomination his brother has become.


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*mumblemumble* Loras *mumblemumble*

Ah yes. Him too. Add him to the list.

Still betting on Brienne/UnBrienne to show up.

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Surprise guests:

I doubt that Sandor or Brienne/Jaime will show up in the Vale. It seems as if major stuff is going to happen in the Riverlands (which is why I think Brynden Tully is not going to pay the Vale a visit, either), and I see Jaime/Brienne returning to/be drawn into events in KL rather than someplace else. And Sandor should be drawn to KL, too, when he learns about the abomination his brother has become.

(Un)Jaime and (Un)Brienne don't need to stay together. They can go their separate ways on their separate missions.

The Undead are driven by their missions, but they lose their humanity, becoming warped versions of their former selves.

UnBrienne's undead mission is "take the sword and kill the kingslayer" but also "find Sansa" (who is reputedly a kingslayer). Brienne is the last person the readers expect to be coming after Sansa with homicidal intent ... but it's been set up.

So after she slew Jaime, she kissed him, and he rose. Now he's got his own undead missions: (1) do glorious deeds to fill the white book and become AA weilding a flaming sword in his new creepy animated golden hand; and (2) strangle Lancel, Kettleback, Moonboy, and finally Cersei, with his new creepy animated golden hand. Next we see of him will probably be at kings landing, when he returns through Cersei's eyes ... but will not be the same.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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Actually, I've no reason to believe that either Brienne or Jaime are dead. What Brienne will do in the future will completely hinge on the question what task/mission Catelyn gives her. She has returned into her service, after all. And since she already lured Jaime into a trap we can assume she is willing to serve her again.



Considering that Brienne actually has Targaryen blood I'd not be surprised if she and Jaime both eventually ended up in Aegon's Kingsguard.


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Actually, I've no reason to believe that either Brienne or Jaime are dead. What Brienne will do in the future will completely hinge on the question what task/mission Catelyn gives her. She has returned into her service, after all. And since she already lured Jaime into a trap we can assume she is willing to serve her again.

Considering that Brienne actually has Targaryen blood I'd not be surprised if she and Jaime both eventually ended up in Aegon's Kingsguard.

How does Brienne have Targaryen blood? All I know is she is most probably descended from Duncan the Tall who was just another orphan from flea-bottom.

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Check TWoIaF. In recent times there were unidentified connections (of the blood tie sort) between House Tarth and House Targaryen. We don't know through whom but we do know that Selwyn and Brienne embody the main branch of House Tarth and thus presumably the Tarths affected by this. My personal take on this whole thing is that Dunk married Dunk's elder sister, Princess Daella, Egg's former betrothed, and had at least one daughter with her who eventually married into House Tarth - becoming the mother of Lord Selwyn and Brienne's grandmother.



Thus we would slay two birds with one stone - the Targaryen connections thing would be explained as well as the pretty strong hint that Brienne is descended from Dunk, too. The other option would be that both a daughter of Dunk and a Targaryen married into House Tarth independent of each other. While possible this would be rather convoluted whereas a Dunk-Daella match should have potential for a great D&E story as well as for a constellation that sets the ground for an overall interesting development.


Edited by Lord Varys

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Actually, I've no reason to believe that either Brienne or Jaime are dead. What Brienne will do in the future will completely hinge on the question what task/mission Catelyn gives her.

Catelyn already gave Brienne two missions. The first was find Sansa, the second take the sword and kill the kingslayer. There is no reason to expect Catelyn to give Brienne any more missions.

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[4] Tournament: the Jousting is "invitation only" but not the melee. This is an opportunity for some unexpected character to appear. But who? Note that three of the best tournament warriors in Westeros are currently missing in action: Brienne, Sandor and Jaime.

Well, I find it quite hard to imagine Littlefinger would allow someone he does not know who it is to get into the melee, or even near them...

If there is a surprise guest, they will either have to take the place of someone else and only reveal themselves when their helmet is removed, or they will have to be smuggled in somehow :dunno:

I know that Shadrich is there for a reason - but I don't see how he could just grab Sansa and head to KL all by his lonesome.

Yeah whatever he does, it won't be a kidnapping at least... at least not a successful one, for story reasons alone. Wouldn't make any sense at all to have another kidnapping plot in Sansa's arc just as she is learning to play the game :)

UnBrienne's undead mission is "take the sword and kill the kingslayer" but also "find Sansa" (who is reputedly a kingslayer). Brienne is the last person the readers expect to be coming after Sansa with homicidal intent ... but it's been set up.

So after she slew Jaime, she kissed him, and he rose.

Sorry, but how would LSH be able to raise Brienne, or Brienne raise Jaime, without dying?

Beric was revived multiple times by Thoros, because Thoros had these powers through his God... However, when Beric passed on the revival to LSH, that really seemed like a one-off thing to me, in which he actually died as well (blood sacrifice for it to work?).

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Well, I find it quite hard to imagine Littlefinger would allow someone he does not know who it is to get into the melee, or even near them...

Why? There are 64 people in the jousting, and the melee is open to all present, including retainers. All the mystery knight need do is get himself/herself hired before the tournament, which might not be difficult for a skilled fighter.

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Sorry, but how would LSH be able to raise Brienne, or Brienne raise Jaime, without dying?

Beric was revived multiple times by Thoros, because Thoros had these powers through his God... However, when Beric passed on the revival to LSH, that really seemed like a one-off thing to me, in which he actually died as well (blood sacrifice for it to work?).

How? Presumably by giving the kiss and not dying. It's happened before, as you admit.

Obviously, Thoros is living proof that one does not necessarily die, and we don't know what the rules are. If Fire Priests can be instruments of the Red God, then why cannot Fire Zombies also be such instruments?

Perhaps the Red God released UnBeric because he had no further use for him, with UnCat available as a "grimmer" replacement.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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How? Presumably by giving the kiss and not dying. It's happened before, as you admit.

Obviously, Thoros is living proof that one does not necessarily die, and we don't know what the rules are. If Fire Priests can be instruments of the Red God, then why cannot Fire Zombies also be such instruments?

Because in the only precedent we've had for a fire zombie doing it, the fire zombie died. Permanently.

Why would one assume that there are different rules for LSH than for Beric?

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Because in the only precedent we've had for a fire zombie doing it, the fire zombie died. Permanently.

Why would one assume that there are different rules for LSH than for Beric?

Why would one assume that a single example establishes a universal rule?

We have six examples of giving the kiss of fire and not dying; and one of giving it and dying. It is you who decided that this depends on whether the one giving the kiss is already a zombie, but GRRM never said so. Maybe it depends on whether the one to be raised has been dead for three days.

Or perhaps it depends on the will of Rh'llor. Or ... anything else.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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