[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

[Led]

Why would one assume that a single example establishes a universal rule?

We have six examples of giving the kiss of fire and not dying; and one of giving it and dying. It is you who decided that this depends on whether the one giving the kiss is already a zombie, but GRRM never said so. Maybe it depends on whether the one to be raised has been dead for three days.

Thoros is actually a red priest, though. From what it sounds like in the descriptions of how he brought Beric back, he used R'hllor magic in his kiss of life. Beric reviving LSH was more of a transfer of life essence.

"I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul."

"I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her."

Edited April 12, 2015 by Led

[ChillyPolly]

Thoros is actually a red priest, though. From what it sounds like in the descriptions of how he brought Beric back, he used R'hllor magic in his kiss of life.

Thoros tells us he knew no magic. He performed a ritual, and became an instrument of forces he could not control and did not understand.

[Lord Damian]

Oh, would I love Ser Brynden Tulley, the Blackfish to show up at that tournament and throw a stick in that wheelspoke.

[ChillyPolly]

Oh, would I love Ser Brynden Tulley, the Blackfish to show up at that tournament and throw a stick in that wheelspoke.

What do we know of his tournament skills?

[Byfort of Corfe]

I'm sorry and this may just be me but if we are suddenly facing an army of zombies with one mission each "must kill Kingslayer, Sansa Kingslayer, she must die" then I am going to be very disappointed and will probably be done with this whole thing. We already have the walking dead beyond the wall anyway.

[ache]

I'm sorry and this may just be me but if we are suddenly facing an army of zombies with one mission each "must kill Kingslayer, Sansa Kingslayer, she must die" then I am going to be very disappointed and will probably be done with this whole thing. We already have the walking dead beyond the wall anyway.

It's not just you.

[Lord Damian]

What do we know of his tournament skills?

melee

[ChillyPolly]

I'm sorry and this may just be me but if we are suddenly facing an army of zombies with one mission each "must kill Kingslayer, Sansa Kingslayer, she must die" then I am going to be very disappointed and will probably be done with this whole thing. We already have the walking dead beyond the wall anyway.

Well, I'm sure people will be disappointed, whatever happens.

You're definitely not alone. I've heard the same idea from many people. I'm not sure I understand it myself, because I ask myself - if a reader had something against stories featuring zombie plagues, why would they read past the prologue?

[ChillyPolly]

Turning to the Blackfish - if he showed up at the Tournament, would Sansa know him well enough to recognize him?

Jaime did make a comment implying the Blackfish is an excellent swordsman.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Turning to the Blackfish - if he showed up at the Tournament, would Sansa know him well enough to recognize him?

Jaime did make a comment implying the Blackfish is an excellent swordsman.

Given Sansa's resemblance to Catelyn, I would anticipate the Blackfish would be able to recognise her reasonably easily and with him being former Knight of the Gate I would imagine that if anyone was able to infiltrate the Gate of the Moon it would be the Blackfish.

I doubt Sansa would be able to recognise the Blackfish by sight, however it probably wouldn't take overly much to convince her of his identity.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Mad Madam Mim

[Colonel Green]

I think the Blackfish appearing raises many of the same story problems as someone like Brienne showing up. Sansa's arc tracks broadly with Bran and Arya in terms of "training". They've all been placed in mentorships with people of varying moral ambiguity (in Littlefinger's case, he's undeniably malevolent). I don't think the outcomes of all these relationships will necessarily be the same (I think Sansa has to reject Littlefinger completely; I'm not sure Bran is going to reject Bloodraven; Arya obviously isn't going to become a Faceless Man, but I don't know if it will be a "sorry, guys, this just isn't for me" or a "you're a fundamentally sociopathic organization"), but I'm reasonably sure that the key similarity will be that all three will have to come to their own decisions and choose their own path.

Having a trustworthy and experienced adult like the Blackfish suddenly show up is throwing Sansa a narrative aid she shouldn't have, anymore than he should show up in Braavos to tell Arya to stop trying to erase her identity.

[Hippocras]

1. IMO Stoneheart has no purpose after passing life to someone else and dealing with Jamie. She has already killed enough Freys and there are too many other characters who want Freys dead for it to be worth sustaining Stoneheart. Life will pass from her to someone else and she will die just like Beric, because even if GRRM could theoretically make her live forever, doing so would be pointless.

She will pass life to someone. Only question is who. Hard to imagine her reviving Jamie, but vaguely possible if she has some mission for him. It seems getting the kiss of life turned her into something with a single purpose (Frey killing), so why not unJamie? Maybe she revives him so he can retrieve Widow's Wail.

2. For surprise showing at tournament, because I think the story of Littlefinger and the Tyrells is not over (nor the story of Loras and the Royces), I think Loras is a reasonably good guess. Him or some other Tyrell.

Brienne or Jamie are less likely unless there is some other chapter that resolves a bit what happened with the BWB first. Who knows, maybe the prologue that involves Jeyne Westerling will be enough to help us understand how one or the other might next show up in the Vale. My hunch is not though. Brienne will cross paths with Sansa, but I don't think at the tournament.

That leaves Sandor. His connection to the Faith ATM is confusing. Why did they revive him? What did that do to his view of the world? Did Cersei's trial already happen and if so, is the Mountain going to show up? Is the melee where the inevitable showdown between un-brothers happens? In short it depends on what else happens first in WoW whether Sandor showing up makes any sense because as far as we know right now he is a very badly injured novice monk.

Finally, Blackfish. This is a good bet. Sansa has never met him though, so no, she would not know him, nor he her. He knows LF well though.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Hippocras

[Kyll.Ing.]

What do we know of his tournament skills?

Arguably, that's not important. What matters for him is to get to the tournament, not necessarily to win it. If he enters and loses epically in the first round, he is still in the Vale.

[Maia]

Thoros tells us he knew no magic.

Wrong. When he explained his background to Arya, he told her that spells had been part of his Red Priest training. They just hadn't worked for anybody to his knowledge. We don't know if "The Kiss of Fire" is partly a spell that has become potent again when magic level waxed on Planetos. Thoros himself was clearly magically gifted from the start, as he had his visions of future in the fire as a novice already - and they were the reason for his not being booted out of the priesthood despite his unsatisfactory performance in training otherwise. It has been obvious from the start that the Red Faith prized magical ability.

It also doesn't seem like raising a fire wight is in any way predictable. Thoros presumably continued to give last rites to members of the Brotherhood, seeing as they have all become followers of the Red God, and this ritual is an important part of their religion, yet nobody else rose. This fits with magic being mysterious and upredictable in ASOIAF, but also makes it highly unlikely that Jaime, Brienne or whoever else could be purposefully raised.

Anyway, yea, I don't expect to see Jaime/Brienne/Sandor show up. If the news of Cersei's arrest are just hitting the Vale, then the former 2 won't work timing-wise and the latter, well, with crimes attributed to him by all sides I just don't see how he could stroll in and not get immediately killed. Also, it would hurt Sansa's narrative arc of gaining agency.

The Blackfish... I dunno. The Vale would be a logical place for him to go and Sansa is missing essential pieces of info necessary for her figuring out LF and freeing herself from him. Brynden could provide that. Also, his own feelings re: Petyr, whom he helped raise, might be confused enough to prevent him from immediately opposing Baelish. In fact, now that I think about it, both Sansa and BF have pieces of info that the other doesn't know and that combined would reveal the scope of LF's treachery.

Sansa has heard about Lysa and Baelish putting "tears" into Arryn's wine, but she doesn't know that "Tears of Lys" is a poison that supposedly killed him and Lysa's behavior prior to her demise makes it easy to dismiss her confession as "ravings".

BF, OTOH, knows about LF's lies concerning the dagger and that Ned had gone to KL to investigate Jon Arryn's death because of Lysa's letter, not to mention Petyr's whole backstory and whatever else Cat and Robb confided to him.

So, I could see how all this could work out without the Blackfish taking over the narrative.

OTOH, I frankly prefer him appearing in Jaime and Brienne's plotline with the BwB, because somebody taking the reins away from unCat at a crucial moment is, IMHO the only way those 2 can survive, Jaime in particular.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Maia

[Lord Varys]

Hm. If we go with the assumption that the Dondarrions have a drop of Targaryen blood this could explain how and why Beric rose. And perhaps a fire wight with a workable 'fire magic package' in his system can pass it on - if Catelyn hasn't any Targaryen blood of her own which is not completely impossible (for instance, due to Tully closeness to the Iron Throne either Aerea or Rhalla could have married into House Tully back during the reign of Jaehaerys I).

If this is the reason why this stuff works then Jon Snow's chances of being dead and becoming revived by Melisandre - and this being a first proof about his heritage - have just gotten much better!

[Elaena Targaryen]

Could someone explain to me who Benjicot is? Thanks.

[sR] "Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.”

[Alayne] Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Elaena Targaryen

[ADanceWithCats]

Oh, would I love Ser Brynden Tulley, the Blackfish to show up at that tournament and throw a stick in that wheelspoke.

Hmm, but wouldn't this run into the same issue as having the Hound show up? Instead of Sansa taking control and playing the game, she would be once again cast into the narrative position of having to be sprung out by a protector figure. If she's to be the protagonist of her own story, it's her choices and her decisions that should drive it, not a Blackfish ex machina.

Then again, that'd explain certain narrative choices many are speculating for the show (please don't let's discuss this here - I said 'speculating'; we don't know what will happen on the show).

[Colonel Green]

2. For surprise showing at tournament, because I think the story of Littlefinger and the Tyrells is not over (nor the story of Loras and the Royces), I think Loras is a reasonably good guess. Him or some other Tyrell.

Loras was cripplingly wounded on Dragonstone.

Could someone explain to me who Benjicot is?

Nobody. Just the same of some servant, presumably.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Loras was cripplingly wounded on Dragonstone.

Cersei had news that Loras had been cripplingly wounded on Dragonstone. She believes it.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Benjicot (which sounds like a variety of apricot!) is a castle servant. It is a Blackwood family name, though, which may or may not be significant.

I recall a SSM where GRRM pointed out that one of Littlefinger's big disadvantages, as far as power is concerned, is that he has no army. He does have a few sellswords in his pay, but there is a reason they are called sellswords. When the gold runs out, somebody else has more gold, or the risk is too high (see: Bronn refusing to fight Gregor Clegane for Tyrion) their loyalty is gone, too. Does LF have anyone who is truly loyal to him and not his money? There might be, but I think they could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

OTOH, the Winged Knights seem to be the start of an army, or at least a Kingsguard-type organization, based upon loyalty, glory, and service rather than gold. And while LF is breaking his arm patting himself on the back for giving the young fighting men of the Vale a way to gain glory and honor...they are Sweetrobin's men, not his, and they may soon be "Alayne's" men too, because of SR's love (such as it is) for her. It's been rightfully pointed out that another abduction plotline for Sansa is redundant in the structure of the books, is not necessary for her character, and in any case would be difficult to accomplish in the Vale at this time. Add to this what SR would do if he found Sansa gone. Can you imagine the epic tantrum? He'd be kicking up a tremendous fuss and demanding that his new "Lordsguard" help find "Alayne" and bring her back right now! And considering how he wants Sansa's company most of the time, they'll be guarding her as well as him by default. I see the Winged Knights as the nucleus of what might be Sansa's army eventually.