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[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3


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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And she never said SR would die, Sansa would marry Harry or that Sansa would go north

No she did not. I wrote about that before. Littlefinger said that Robin was a very sickly boy who probably would die and that after her marriage she would go north.

Don't forget Mr. LF killed Joffrey, a much more powerful, older and evil person then Robin. Considering that the Ghost of High Heart said about her killing a Giant (LF's sigil) in Winter/Snow I just put 2 and 2 together. ;)

Don't be jealous of my superior intellect. :P

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On 4/15/2015 at 0:09 AM, ChillyPolly said:

 

 

 

LS did use the term "kingslayer". The word Brienne shouted ("sword") represented the oath LS demanded of her ("take the sword and kill the kingslayer").

 

 

 

And yes, this does echo her earlier oath to take a different sword (Renly's) and kill a different kingslayer (Stannis).

I have to say, I would love for this to be the case and for them two and Pod etc to come out of this alive but the problem is, Brienne clearly and very reluctantly shouted "sword" because otherwise innocent Pod would hang.  Now, if this were fairy lore this would work out beautifully as the literal meaning of the words would be taken and the bargain would be completed but hey, how long is LSH going to wait for Brienne to turn up with Jaime before killing Pod and I think there were some other guys too, at least one (sorry I have forgotten the exact details).  Whereas Jamie might or may not object to that, Brienne certainly will (leaving them to their fate in SH's hands).  Also the idea of LSH just considering the bargain fulfilled if they turn up with say Stannis' head, well... I wouldn't bet my life or Pod's on it...   I know we are not supposed to discuss the show here but the fact that they are alive in it, and they are to me relatively major characters, gives me the idea that they will both survive this.  Also I think Jamie has a lot of unfinished business still but how, only the gods know!

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4 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

No she did not. I wrote about that before. Littlefinger said that Robin was a very sickly boy who probably would die and that after her marriage she would go north.

Don't forget Mr. LF killed Joffrey, a much more powerful, older and evil person then Robin. Considering that the Ghost of High Heart said about her killing a Giant (LF's sigil) in Winter/Snow I just put 2 and 2 together. ;)

Don't be jealous of my superior intellect. :P

A castle built of snow, to be precise.

Quote

The Eyrie shrank above them. The sky cells on the lower levels made the castle look something like a honeycomb from below. A honeycomb made of ice, Alayne thought, a castle made of snow.

Run your numbers again.

5 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

It's entirely possible Robert Arryn will die.

As to "foreshadowing", "maid" in that context is most likely just be used to mean "young girl".  It's not like the Ghost of High Heart was getting visions of her hymen.  Which isn't to say she definitely will marry, either, but I don't think you can use that instance of a word usage as guaranteeing she won't.

No, word choice is deliberate as is aligning Sansa with maid of the seven. Yes I do cast aside Sansa fan delusions like Sandor becoming a northmen or that these other POV characters will abandon their arcs and follow Sansa north, away from the game. Cersei is integral in Sansa's arc, more so than any character in the north, they're not remotely finished, it was to Cersei Sansa betrayed her father, it was Cersei who ran the game of thrones over her dumb ass.

Edited by chrisdaw
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3 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Cersei is integral in Sansa's arc, more so than any character in the north, they're not remotely finished, it was to Cersei Sansa betrayed her father, it was Cersei who ran the game of thrones over her dumb ass.

Strange that you associate both so much.

Arya Stark had to live in the sewers, literally because of Cersei. She would be more likely to get revenge on  her then Sansa Stark.

But as far as I know the Valonquar (younger brother) is the one who will finish Queen Cersei off. It is also in a prophecy. It will not be Sansa Stark.

 

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It's not strange I associate Sansa and Cersei so much when the text does. Sansa doesn't have to be the valonquar for Cersei to be a giant part of her arc. She wouldn't have to be the YMBQ either, but she is.

Arya and Cersei never had a conversation in the whole series.

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On 7/21/2016 at 7:24 PM, chrisdaw said:

No, word choice is deliberate as is aligning Sansa with maid of the seven.

That sort of symbolic interpretation has never made much sense to me, particularly since there aren't seven clear main characters.

Quote

Yes I do cast aside Sansa fan delusions like Sandor becoming a northmen or that these other POV characters will abandon their arcs and follow Sansa north, away from the game. Cersei is integral in Sansa's arc, more so than any character in the north, they're not remotely finished, it was to Cersei Sansa betrayed her father, it was Cersei who ran the game of thrones over her dumb ass.

Cersei was certainly an important part of Sansa's arc, but I see no reason at all to consider her integral to it going forward.  GRRM said pretty much all there was to be said about their dynamic by the end of ACOK; they barely interact at all for the rest of the time they're both in KL.

The person who "ran the game of thrones" over Sansa was one Petyr Baelish, the man she's interacting with.

Cersei's going to be dealing with the Tyrells, Martells, the Faith, probably Aegon VI, maybe Daenerys, and eventually her brother Jaime coming to choke the life out of her.  I'd say the odds are pretty good she and Sansa never meet again.

Edited by Colonel Green
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1) The Eyrie, as @chrisdaw pointed out above, is the castle made of snow where she will kill LF, fulfilling the GOHH prophecy. Most probably, she will control the Vale after this event.

2) The possibility of the Vale army going up North in Winter is very unlikely due to travel distances, the terrain, and the weather. 

3) The North, after the defeat of Boltons, is now going to focus on the threat of the Others, Old Gods' magic, wildlings, question of Azor Ahai and so on. Jon, Bran, Stannis, Melisandre, etc will be the protagonists in the North.  Sansa's story does not relate to any of this - she is going to be a player in the Game, and for that, the South is the place where she can actually display her skills.

4) Bran has a vision of her and Arya in AGOT being overshadowed by the Hound, Jaime and UnGregor. Since every other vision of his has been accurate, we can assume this will play out as well. I find it quite unlikely this will happen in the North - it looks more like KL or the Riverlands itself.

Edited by Little Scribe of Naath
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9 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

That sort of symbolic interpretation has never made much sense to me, particularly since there aren't seven clear main characters.

Cersei was certainly an important part of Sansa's arc, but I see no reason at all to consider her integral to it going forward.  GRRM said pretty much all there was to be said about their dynamic by the end of ACOK; they barely interact at all for the rest of the time they're both in KL.

The person who "ran the game of thrones" over Sansa was one Petyr Baelish, the man she's interacting with.

Cersei's going to be dealing with the Tyrells, Martells, the Faith, probably Aegon VI, maybe Daenerys, and eventually her brother Jaime coming to choke the life out of her.  I'd say the odds are pretty good she and Sansa never meet again.

Sansa idealised Cersei. Sansa betrayed her family to Cersei. Then Cersei destroyed her idealism. She used the stupid girl up and laughed at her naivety. Cersei absolutely did run her game over Sansa, as did LF.

That LF ran over Sansa, and Sansa will give him his, strengthens the inevitability of Sansa doing the same to Cersei. There is a clash of method between the two, a clash in their outlooks set to play out.

Quote

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

Sansa's love, vs Cersei's fear.

The current instrument of Cersei's fear, the undead personification of her terror,

Quote

 

"Ser Robert," Cersei whispered, as they entered the gates.

"If it please Your Grace, Ser Robert has taken a holy vow of silence," Qyburn said. "He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace's enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm."

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

 

And look at that,

Quote

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

the symbol of Cersei's terror looms over Sansa, and between them something Cersei holds dear, a man sworn to protect Sansa's safety.

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Petyr Baelish is very probably this Giant of the prophecy. His father took the head of the Titan of Braavvos as their sigil, because his father was a sellsword in Braavos.

It might be he is not the one (not very probable); however the Valonquar is the one killing Cersey and Sansa is not her younger brother.

 

On ‎23‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 8:39 AM, chrisdaw said:

Sansa idealised Cersei. Sansa betrayed her family to Cersei. Then Cersei destroyed her idealism. She used the stupid girl up and laughed at her naive

 

On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, chrisdaw said:

It's not strange I associate Sansa and Cersei

Strange or not Sansa is not Valonquar and therefore will not finish Cersei off!

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On July 21, 2016 at 7:22 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

 

First it will Happen because the She Ghost of High Heart said so. and she was right even in Lady Stark's death and ressurection. So it will happen.

Second she LF can suffer an acidente a lá LF.

Third, even if Robin lives, she can marry Harry and when she shows herself as a Stark they will try to reconquer the North anyway. For Harry the Heir it will be then more importante to have the North, considering Robin still will have the Vale. If Harry has the Vale he will want both and if he hasn't, the he'll want it even more. ^_^

The ghost of high heart does not say WF, she says castle made of snow, and as Chrisdaw pointed out she says maid, so if you are actually following the prophecy when Sansa kills the giant she will still be a virgin, meaning she has not slept with Harry.  Also, Sansa taking an army north is simply not going to happen.  Harry tells Sansa that the mountain passes are snowed in, and the book is not the show where they simply ignore all logistics.

Last, when someone says a plan in its entirety it does not succeed in the books, plans only work when we don't hear about them until they are finished.

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Last, when someone says a plan in its entirety it does not succeed in the books, plans only work when we don't hear about them until they are finished.

The plan to ally with the Tyrells is hashed out in great detail in ACOK, and that goes off without a hitch, to name one.

I expect there'll be some curveballs thrown in here that will probably serve to accelerate the action (the common speculation of Shadrich revealing Sansa's identity ahead of schedule in a failed abduction attempt, for instance). 

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

she says castle made of snow

They left the Eyrie. No one goes/stays there in the Winter as far as I know. Winterfell is more castle of snow then any other castle if you take out the Eyrie. It is possible it is not WF, yes I have to admit it is. ^_^

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Harry tells Sansa that the mountain passes are snowed in

The mountain pass not the bloody gate. If the mountains and the bloody gate are totally showed in then thge Vale is separated from all Westeros until the end of Winter. Not true!

Even is she does not kills LF in WF, she will kill him (if he is the Giant). Yes she might kill him while still a maid, meaning something will happen and she will kill him before bedding; maybe she kill LF when he is abouit to make Robin get a little acident? Perhaps.

Two things in the prophecy are certain the maid will kill the Giant and Valonquar Cersei.

If the prophecy will come true like the others did only GRRM knows.

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4 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

The mountain pass not the bloody gate. If the mountains and the bloody gate are totally showed in then thge Vale is separated from all Westeros until the end of Winter. Not true!

The land route out of the Vale (the High Road) is impassable at this point.  It's noted in Brienne's storyline as well.  But you can travel by sea, as was the case during the Dance of the Dragons.

Moreover, Littlefinger is clearly planning to make more moves in the near future, so he doesn't conceive himself to be stuck in the Vale.

Edited by Colonel Green
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On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:58 PM, HallowedMarcus said:

They left the Eyrie. No one goes/stays there in the Winter as far as I know. Winterfell is more castle of snow then any other castle if you take out the Eyrie. It is possible it is not WF, yes I have to admit it is. ^_^

The mountain pass not the bloody gate. If the mountains and the bloody gate are totally showed in then thge Vale is separated from all Westeros until the end of Winter. Not true!

Even is she does not kills LF in WF, she will kill him (if he is the Giant). Yes she might kill him while still a maid, meaning something will happen and she will kill him before bedding; maybe she kill LF when he is abouit to make Robin get a little acident? Perhaps.

Two things in the prophecy are certain the maid will kill the Giant and Valonquar Cersei.

If the prophecy will come true like the others did only GRRM knows.

Harry the heir clearly states that the mountain road is blocked.

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Not to de-rail this topic, but I think many posters have missed the meaning of the GoHH's prophecy, and how it has already come true as it applies to Sansa.  Understandable, as I didn't catch it until my third (yes, three times) read through.  Concerning Sansa, GoHH says, " I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.[3] "

The first part about the feast and purple serpents refers to Sansa being an unwilling/unknowing accomplice in Joffrey's murder- that much we all seem to agree on.  The second part, though, refers directly to Sansa's building the snow castle in the Eyrie and Lord Robert coming in with his doll and destroying it.  Read that part again and you'll see what I mean.  In the ASOS paperback I have, it's on page 1105.  Sansa has built the snow castle when Lord Robert enters the scene.  "Look, here comes a giant to knock it down," says Lord Robert.  Sansa tries to grab the doll but little Lord Robert has a firm hold of it and it rips in half, spilling sawdust over the remains of the snow castle.  "You killllllled him!" Lord Robert wailed.  This incident leads directly to Lysa's confrontation with Sansa when Littlefinger comes in and saves her by throwing Lysa out the Moon Door.  So each half of this prophecy deals with Sansa being an unwilling/unknowing accomplice in murders committed by Littlefinger.  Not Sansa killing Littlefinger.

I hope that clears things up for those that were thinking Sansa will kill Littlefinger.

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13 hours ago, Sinbold said:

Not to de-rail this topic, but I think many posters have missed the meaning of the GoHH's prophecy, and how it has already come true as it applies to Sansa.  Understandable, as I didn't catch it until my third (yes, three times) read through.  Concerning Sansa, GoHH says, " I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.[3] "

The first part about the feast and purple serpents refers to Sansa being an unwilling/unknowing accomplice in Joffrey's murder- that much we all seem to agree on.  The second part, though, refers directly to Sansa's building the snow castle in the Eyrie and Lord Robert coming in with his doll and destroying it.  Read that part again and you'll see what I mean.  In the ASOS paperback I have, it's on page 1105.  Sansa has built the snow castle when Lord Robert enters the scene.  "Look, here comes a giant to knock it down," says Lord Robert.  Sansa tries to grab the doll but little Lord Robert has a firm hold of it and it rips in half, spilling sawdust over the remains of the snow castle.  "You killllllled him!" Lord Robert wailed.  This incident leads directly to Lysa's confrontation with Sansa when Littlefinger comes in and saves her by throwing Lysa out the Moon Door.  So each half of this prophecy deals with Sansa being an unwilling/unknowing accomplice in murders committed by Littlefinger.  Not Sansa killing Littlefinger.

I hope that clears things up for those that were thinking Sansa will kill Littlefinger.

There's been considerable debate ever since ASOS came out whether the second half of the prophecy was fulfilled in the snow castle scene or not.

I'm confident that Sansa will eventually bring Littlefinger down, either way, but whether that was what it referred to isn't really a settled issue.

Edited by Colonel Green
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On 28/07/2016 at 8:10 PM, Sinbold said:

I hope that clears things up for those that were thinking Sansa will kill Littlefinger.

 

On 29/07/2016 at 9:29 AM, Colonel Green said:

but whether that was what it referred to isn't really a settled issue.

 

On 28/07/2016 at 8:10 PM, Sinbold said:

" I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.[3] "

It says venom dropping that was used to kill Jofrey. It does not say slaying because she was an unwilling tool. The second part of the prophecy says slaying which means she is actually doing it, she is not a tool, she kills. And Robin would be that Giant if you (Sinbold) are right, not his mother.

Sansa did not slay Jofrey willingly, but she will do her "next" kill willingly, it says "slaying". Because of that I believe the prophecy has not yet happened.

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8 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

 

 

It says venom dropping that was used to kill Jofrey. It does not say slaying because she was an unwilling tool. The second part of the prophecy says slaying which means she is actually doing it, she is not a tool, she kills. And Robin would be that Giant if you (Sinbold) are right, not his mother.

 

Sansa did not slay Jofrey willingly, but she will do her "next" kill willingly, it says "slaying". Because of that I believe the prophecy has not yet happened.

 

Robin is play acting as the giant (his doll) when he makes it destroy the snow castle.  This is typical childhood behavior- a child picks up a doll, and when making it perform an action, the child says, as if it were voicing the doll, "I'm a fierce (your choice of creature here)!  And I'm going to destroy you!"  Is the child actually going to destroy anything, or is the child making the doll do it?  In the child's mind, it's the doll performing the action.  If you read the passage, you'll see that it IS Sansa that "kills" Lord Robert's doll, as he claims when he says, "You killllllled it!"

It seems you missed the point of my post.  Sweetrobin's doll is the giant, as he claims, and Sansa brings about its death.  We'll know for certain in a few years when the books finally come out and we see if and how Littlefinger meets his end.  Then I'll revisit this post and either hang my head in shame, or gloat.

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What does the doll have to do with it?  About the same as the serpents in Sansa's hair.  It's not about the doll.  HallowedMarcus, it's about an incident.  Or rather two incidents.  What do the two incidents have in common?  First, Sansa is an unwitting accomplice.  Second, LIttlefinger uses each incident to kill someone.  Joffrey in the first, Lysa Arryn in the second.  These two commonalities are what the first and second parts of this prophecy have in common.  It is important to use the same deductive reasoning when trying to figure out each part of the prophecy.  You cannot separate the two.

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