Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

588 posts in this topic

Why should GoHH's prophecy  focus on the doll and a snow castle? A prophecy won't talk about such small things. If we talk about the symbolism of this scene between Sansa and SR, I would suggest it means that Sansa will avenge those who ruined her castle (her family seat, Winterfell, and the Starks).

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That prophecy almost certainly has to do with her killing Littlefinger as his real family sigil is the Titan of Braavos ( A Giant). He changed his to the mockingbird out of arrogance and mocking everyone around him who seems to see him as small as a bird yet forgets that he is a Giant in their World, masquerading as the bird, mocking them, making fun of them etc. He is savage as far as his cruetly (Jeyne Poole ring a bell), he is a human trader, a high functioning sociopath. evil.  Sansa will kill Littlefinger at some point and in the Wintertime, The Eyrie or maybe, maybe Winterfell.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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"Slaying a savage giant "IN" a castle built of snow"  Not near, not in front of, In.  If it were not obvious enough that the prophecy would not refer to such a trivial event, the fact that it does not line up with what was said should be enough.  Sansa was not in a castle built of snow when she ripped the dolls head off. 

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Hey, I am new to this as you can see, but have thought this through a lot... So, I really don't think that LF can be described as or believed savage. Yes, he is cruel, he kills people for his own benefit, he is a sociopath - but to be savage, I'd say he'd have to be much more violent, brutal, losing his temper, or at least associated with other savages... neither of which he is. His self control is one of the best in Westeros, I think (right next to Roose Bolton). Besides, yes, the prophecies are figurative and often envision people's actions via their sigils but I don't recall of any other prophecy in the books which would symbolize a man with a sigil he doesn't use and is not generally associated with him. Why wouldn't the GoHH see a maid killing a little (mocking)bird in a castle made of snow if LF's death is what the prophecy is representing?

So, in my opinion, the GoHH prophecy is no more than what it seems based on the castle of snow scene in the Eyrie. I actually like it, as a great absurdity and a sign of prophecies not being always what they seem. I would love to see Sansa finishing off LF but my feeling is that it she will die, more likely, because she disconnected herself deliberately from her pack and the lone wolf dies. :(

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3 hours ago, Jenny of Dorne said:

Besides, yes, the prophecies are figurative and often envision people's actions via their sigils but I don't recall of any other prophecy in the books which would symbolize a man with a sigil he doesn't use and is not generally associated with him. Why wouldn't the GoHH see a maid killing a little (mocking)bird in a castle made of snow if LF's death is what the prophecy is representing?

It would be too obvious if it would be a mockingbird. Besides that GoHH refers to Cat Stark as "woman who was a fish", a fish is Tully's sigil, but Cat is a Stark.

I guess all the remaining Starks are on their own now and partly lost their Stark identity and their pack. Sansa disguised as Alayne, Jon as a brother of NW, Arya trying to become a Faceless man, Bran becoming a 3d eye raven. We don't know much about Rickon, but he was too smal when he left Winterfell and could probably forget his Stark-ness.

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The prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart: "And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

Proposals for who might be the giant in the previous discussion of this post have been (If I am not wrong):

- Littlefinger (as the sigil of his father was the Titan of Braavos)

- Ser Robert Strong

- Robert Arryn (Sweetrobin)

- Sweetrobin's doll (in that case the prohecy would already have become true)

As the GoHH mentions a SAVAGE giant, I have some problems with Sweetrobin, his doll, and Littlefinger, however it still might fit.

Maybe we have overseen something? Which other giants might exist in the whole story, however far-fetched it may seem?

Bedwyck, nicknamed Giant due to his short height, is an experienced ranger of the Night's Watch (actually in command of the abandoned way-castle Icemark 

- Wun Wun in Castle Black

 

I know - very far fetched, The most convincing point I see, it would extremely well fit the "Castle built of snow".

Hmmm... best explanation might still be Sweetrobin's doll, who else could Sansa be able to slay?

Edited by Greywater-Watch

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The savagery is a lack of care for the consequences of his actions, a lack of empathy. LF has no regard for the collateral damage his manoeuvres cause. He wanted war and wanted it on his terms. The giant is less about his sigil and more his influence, the sigil is just a hidden little bonus. He is a giant like important historic (or contemporary) figures are referred to as giants, and how Aemon refers to Tyrion. He moves armies, causes wars, decides battles, steers kings.

LF was the single most cause of the Stark's ruin. He killed JA, saving the Lannister siblings Robert's wrath and in the knowledge it'd bring Robert to Ned and Ned to the south. To make sure of the latter he had Lysa send the secret letter. He had no regard for the ruin it would bring to the realm or on house Stark, hence a savage giant destroying WF, and the motivation for Sansa to slay him. When she figures it out.

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7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

The prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart: "And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

Proposals for who might be the giant in the previous discussion of this post have been (If I am not wrong):

- Littlefinger (as the sigil of his father was the Titan of Braavos)

- Ser Robert Strong

- Robert Arryn (Sweetrobin)

- Sweetrobin's doll (in that case the prohecy would already have become true)

As the GoHH mentions a SAVAGE giant, I have some problems with Sweetrobin, his doll, and Littlefinger, however it still might fit.

Maybe we have overseen something? Which other giants might exist in the whole story, however far-fetched it may seem?

Bedwyck, nicknamed Giant due to his short height, is an experienced ranger of the Night's Watch (actually in command of the abandoned way-castle Icemark 

- Wun Wun in Castle Black

 

I know - very far fetched, The most convincing point I see, it would extremely well fit the "Castle built of snow".

Hmmm... best explanation might still be Sweetrobin's doll, who else could Sansa be able to slay?

The Umbers' sigil is a savage giant with broken chains.  Not sure why she would be killing one of them though.  Although Whoresbane did side with the Boltons.

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When Sansa goes underground (think Winterfell crypts?), a lot of wight/Other imagery pops up. This imagery is missing when she is above ground.

LF says, "Winter is coming."

“Lady Alayne,” Lord Grafton said. “You look bright-eyed this morning.” Wights are described as bright-eyed.

 

“The world is full of horrors, sweet.  By now you ought to know that.  You’ve seen enough of them.”  Reminds one of 'the night is dark and full of terrors'.

"Charm him.  Entrance him.  Bewitch him.”

The night belongs to you, sweetling, Remember that, always.”

With these in mind, we have the following possible word play at the end of the chapter.

"Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?”

 “You may not.  It is promised to… another (another = An Other?).”  She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

 

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Posted (edited)

I recently went back and re-read the Alayne sample chapter. Some predictions and observations:

Neither Brienne or Jaime have died. Sandor is injured on the Quiet Isle and Loras is injured on Dragonstone. None of them will show up at the tourney. The Blackfish could, but I doubt he will. Right now he's on the run, and there would be no point for him to go to the Vale since, as Sansa pointed out in AFFC, the Vale did nothing to back Robb's cause during the war. 

I agree that there's really no way that Shadrich could kidnap Sansa on his own. However, GRRM wouldn't have placed him there unless he was planning on doing something with him, so I think that chaos of some sort is about to break loose.

I don't necessarily think Harry will die at the tourney, but he may get injured, and I doubt he'll live to see the end of TWOW. 

Littlefinger's pimping and grooming of Sansa never ceases to disturb me. 

Another line that bothered me was when Sansa was listening to Robert and thought, "you are such a little fool." It's the same sort of phrase that Cersei would use, and as we saw in AFFC, all of Cersei's sage wisdom turned out not to be so wise after all.

Sansa still seems to be a bit in denial about Robert's impending death. Even so, this can also be an indication that Sansa still has a kind heart, which is something I'm happy to see.

I think that this chapter is essentially the calm before the storm. George has a way of building up characters only to then have them suffer a magnificent crash. Things are about to get crazy in the Vale, and I am really looking forward to reading about it.

 

Edited by The Bard of Banefort

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On a side note, if Sansa does end up killing Littlefinger, I wonder if it will be with the Tears of Lys. It would certainly serve some poetic justice. 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

On a side note, if Sansa does end up killing Littlefinger, I wonder if it will be with the Tears of Lys. It would certainly serve some poetic justice. 

It would be even more poetic if it was the Strangler from her hairnet.  Although I actually think he will be killed more openly; execution, most likely.

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On 6/19/2017 at 3:29 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

On a side note, if Sansa does end up killing Littlefinger, I wonder if it will be with the Tears of Lys. It would certainly serve some poetic justice. 

But the Tears are a slow poison, the only reason even a super old dude died was because his Maester was replaced by a Lannister Toady. I mean, I guess he might have died later, but it was implied that he might have lived had Pycelle not taken over.

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Posted (edited)

On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 1:55 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another line that bothered me was when Sansa was listening to Robert and thought, "you are such a little fool." It's the same sort of phrase that Cersei would use, and as we saw in AFFC, all of Cersei's sage wisdom turned out not to be so wise after all.

Good pick up. It runs into this.

Quote

“The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.”

Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut. “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”

The boy looked stricken. “No. I never meant — “

Pretending to be offended, pretending that he hurt her for the purpose of making him pliable. Emotional manipulation.

Where she learnt that.

Quote

"Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them. The man's weapon is a sword. And that tells us all you need to know, doesn't it?"

And soon followed by,

Quote

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

 

Edited by chrisdaw

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Good pick up. It runs into this.

Pretending to be offended, pretending that he hurt her for the purpose of making him pliable. Emotional manipulation.

Where she learnt that.

And soon followed by,

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. There's something very sad about it too since, as Cersei and Arianne showed us, sexual manipulation doesn't really work well in the long term (the Kettleblacks turned Cersei over at the first sign of conflict, and Arys' feelings for Arianne didn't stop him from charging head-first into Areo Hotah), and because it feeds into Littlefinger's pimping and grooming of her. Unlike on the show, Sansa didn't spend months in King's Landing watching Margaery flirt, and Myranda has a much more brash and outspoken approach, which makes me think that much of her seduction skills are coming straight from the encouragement of her uncle-father, Petyr. I find his manipulation of her revolting, and it looks like it's going to get much worse before she finally breaks free of him. 

On a side note, I'm finding myself becoming very excited to see what Shadrich's part in this will be. He popped up in AFFC specifically to signal to the audience that he wants that reward, and now he's talking to Sansa about "stumbling upon a bag of dragons." It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. 

Edited by The Bard of Banefort

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Posted (edited)

On 22/03/2017 at 1:43 AM, Lollygag said:

When Sansa goes underground (think Winterfell crypts?), a lot of wight/Other imagery pops up. This imagery is missing when she is above ground.

LF says, "Winter is coming."

“Lady Alayne,” Lord Grafton said. “You look bright-eyed this morning.” Wights are described as bright-eyed.

“The world is full of horrors, sweet.  By now you ought to know that.  You’ve seen enough of them.”  Reminds one of 'the night is dark and full of terrors'.

"Charm him.  Entrance him.  Bewitch him.”

“The night belongs to you, sweetling, Remember that, always.”

With these in mind, we have the following possible word play at the end of the chapter.

"Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?”

 “You may not.  It is promised to… another (another = An Other?).”  She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

I've been thinking recently about Sansa turning to the dark side. Darth Sansa style.

"The night belongs to you..." has a good match in AGOT as '... Sansa gave herself to the darkness.'

Ominous stuff, but I wonder what it really means to be of the night. She might meet Jon there. Possibly Sandor, who 'seemed to take form out of the night'.

On 19/06/2017 at 4:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another line that bothered me was when Sansa was listening to Robert and thought, "you are such a little fool." It's the same sort of phrase that Cersei would use, and as we saw in AFFC, all of Cersei's sage wisdom turned out not to be so wise after all.

Sansa still seems to be a bit in denial about Robert's impending death. Even so, this can also be an indication that Sansa still has a kind heart, which is something I'm happy to see.

Sansa/Alayne's thought processes are an impossible mess. :wacko: It's a good point about fools though - the so-called fools turn out to be wise, and the so-called wise turn out to be fools: it's a mini theme of the books. We should be taking SR more seriously, perhaps. Harry's out to get him??

Edited by Springwatch

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On 8/19/2017 at 8:11 AM, Springwatch said:

I've been thinking recently about Sansa turning to the dark side. Darth Sansa style.

"The night belongs to you..." has a good match in AGOT as '... Sansa gave herself to the darkness.'

Ominous stuff, but I wonder what it really means to be of the night. She might meet Jon there. Possibly Sandor, who 'seemed to take form out of the night'.

Sounds very Night's Queenish to me and Sansa has increasingly been connected to and drawn to the cold but I'm not even sure that we'll actually see the mythical Night's King.

She might turn rather dark. Actually didn't GRRM say a lot of characters would be going that route? If she does go darker, I don't think it'll be villain level, just making rather uncomfortable choices like giving Robert more sweetsleep going down the mountain because as a respected Lord he couldn't be seen by everyone being a basket case and Robert being stronger undermines LF. With Euron and Cersei, I'm inclined to think that the absolute villain quota has been reached.

There are loads of parallels between Jon and the Hound. I'm not sure how it would tie in, but they've both been mentioned in significant ways during her Vale arc. Lyn Corbray kind of sounds similar to both of them to me in some ways and he's most definitely dark and seems to be set up to play a big role in the future.

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Thought about the Lyn/Jon/Hound similarities a little more. Sansa suspects that Lyn isn’t really loyal to LF but she doesn’t tell LF this. If Lyn reminds Sansa of both Jon and the Hound (people who have been good to her), if she’s fairly certain that he’s up for betraying LF, she knows he’s not going to be interested in her sexually (he likes boys and the text states that she’s getting rather curvy), then Sansa might take a leap and decide to work with Lyn behind LF’s back.

 

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I loved this chapter. For the first time in a long time Sansa is actually enjoying her life. Her interactions with Harry were a delight. Loved it how she sassed him. He deserved that, especially after his disgusting comment over his late lover. Enjoyable as it was in many ways this chapter feels like a calm before a storm... 

PS: Why are some people here saying she was too over-confident. I didn't get that impression. I think you guys are only taken aback from Sansa's openness, because of her forced timidness in King's landing. Let the poor girl enjoy. 

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