Xray the Enforcer

[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 3

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Bronn also had another reason than gold for not fighting Gregor: he wanted his life to continue into The Winds of Winter...


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1. IMO Stoneheart has no purpose after passing life to someone else and dealing with Jamie. She has already killed enough Freys and there are too many other characters who want Freys dead for it to be worth sustaining Stoneheart.

It would be closer to the truth to say she has already killed too many Freys. I don't agree that Stoneheart's purpose in the plot is to kill exactly the right number of Freys or to kill Freys alone. She has become a monster.

And though it's possible, it would be odd if she left the story without any of the 6 main characters (Arya Sansa Dany Bran Jon Tyrion) meeting her.

Brienne or Jamie are less likely unless there is some other chapter that resolves a bit what happened with the BWB first.

I see no reason to accept this. I know of no indication that there will be an encounter between Jaime, Brienne and the BWB. Assuming one does occur, I see no basis for the assumption that it will occur BEFORE Brienne or Jaime do other things (like attend the Vale tournament). Assuming even this, I see no reason why we cannot find out about these things when one or other of the 6 main characters (Arya Sansa Dany Bran Jon Tyrion) get filled in.

That leaves Sandor. His connection to the Faith ATM is confusing. Why did they revive him?

Huh? I thought the Elder Brother explained the situation well enough. What would you have done, if you were the Elder Brother? Edited by ChillyPolly

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Wow, I finally got caught up on these threads.



OK first I am really disappointed to see so many people saying the winged knights idea was likely LF's and he fed it to Sansa to make her feel clever. Why can't sansa simply be clever and have had a good idea of her own? Are people really that desperate to put her down?



Sansa had the idea whilst reading to Robert, and LF embraced her idea, She is pleased that she made the suggestions and he made it all happen. Which shows she is both intelligent enough to have the idea and that she is pleased Petyr is following her instructions, which as a reader we can interpret as "when you know what a man wants you can move him."



peytr clearly wants to execute his plans but simultaneously wants Sansa to be happy, see also the epic lemoncake, which she is smug about knowing it was really for her, Because again she knows that Peytr is trying to please her, she knows he wants her and is happy that he is willing to go to great lengths to please her, because knowing this means she can manipulate him. Another example is her asking him for flirtation tips. Sansa is well aware of how to flirt, she's just been out in the castle doing it. And we know from book one that Sans is quick and witty and good with people she shows it when she meets Renly & Barristan way back, when she eases the distressed women in the holdfast during the battle, when Tyrion notes her working the room in ASOS and thinks what a good Queen she would have made. She shows it in her little exchange with the hedge knights in AFFC. People who are like sansa is don't need flirting tips, it comes naturally and they excell at it. Sansa doesn't need Peytr's tips but asking him for them maintains his feelings of her needing him, and massages his ego that he is teaching her and she is under his influence 100%, Sansa is playing him already.


Sansa follows his instructions perfectly but note she does not follow them to the letter because she does NOT ask him to take her outside. This is crucial, she choses to ignore LF's advice in that regard. Showing she isn't just glibly following his lead. She clearly is working with his plan right now, because she wants to go home and to be Sansa Stark again This is clear from the multiple thoughts of home and family and Jeyne.(which I think is important, because we all know what LF did to Jeyne.)



Sitting near the fire had to be about highlighting her hair, and we know from feast that she is running low on dye so the red undertones will have been shining through here. Interesting, I think there are certain people whom he wants to know or at least suspect who she really is.



She likes peytr, but she is still aware that he is not to be trusted completely, she notes the smile that doesn't reach his eyes and calls him littlefinger. So whilst she is getting comfortable with him she doesn't trust him completely and she is aware of his feelings for her and is subtly playing him, and lastly that she is willing to follow his instructions but if something she doesn't want is suggested she will chose not to do it.



I don't think anyone is abducting her, she's in training now and needs to spend a reasonable length of time there. Plus I think that she will indeed return to WF with LF and behead him there, so for the time being they need to stay aligned. So what the mad Mouse is up to is a mystery, I did like the Varys connections people were making, but if he is there to try to abduct her he's going to fail. And there is good reason for him to fail as has been pointed out ain't no way out of the Vale right now.



The favour hmmm, Might she give it to dull Albar Royce? He is the heir to the castle the tourney is held in, and so high enough born for Alayne to use him to put HtH's nose further out of joint and make him feel he needs to seriously re think his initial objections. Sansa described him as dull, but she isn't looking for a knight to favour out of romantic aspirations she is purely looking to play hard to get for Harry.



And lastly as to SanSan, I don't see anything in this chapter to indicate she has lost interest in Sandor, or shifted her attentions. She just doesn't explicitly mention him, but we do know that she will think of the unkiss again as GRRM has said so. So I'd assume from that that she will be thinking of it again soon. Maybe in the Tourney chapter? Maybe she is crowned Queen of Love & Beauty by the winner and they kiss her, triggering memories of her "first"kiss?



LF is still kissing her, ewwww, she mentions him kissing her on both cheeks and in the cellar he kisses her forehead. but now they are in a more public castle it seems at least he is keeping his unwanted attentions more chaste. But she is still very aware that he has feelings for her & using them too.




ETA: I agree those knives sound suspicious. :/ someone is going to get set up I think.


Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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:agree:



I'm glad there are people on the internet better with words who I can agree with.

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Cersei had news that Loras had been cripplingly wounded on Dragonstone. She believes it.

And all the theories that anything else is occurring are simply nonsensical. There is absolutely no reason why the Tyrells, at that stage in the story, would want to fake Loras' injury. Such ideas are invariably linked to some enormous behind-the-scenes Tyrell plan, but the Tyrells are not acting like a family playing out a grand design. Their actions are those of people sincerely unbalanced by Cersei's full-on assault in defiance of courtly niceties and basic logic.

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ChillyPolly, you aren't making sense. Brienne and Jamie are currently WITH the BWB. That is who LS leads. Therefore of course the situation with the BWB needs to be resolved in some manner. Did you miss some chapters?

No, the Elder Brother's explanation left more questions than answers and it is in fact not at all clear why Sandor is still in this story. The Faith is hiding him, even from Brienne. That needs resolution.

Edited by Hippocras

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And all the theories that anything else is occurring are simply nonsensical. There is absolutely no reason why the Tyrells, at that stage in the story, would want to fake Loras' injury. Such ideas are invariably linked to some enormous behind-the-scenes Tyrell plan, but the Tyrells are not acting like a family playing out a grand design. Their actions are those of people sincerely unbalanced by Cersei's full-on assault in defiance of courtly niceties and basic logic.

um....no reason?

Cersei made it abundantly clear she was trying to kill off the Tyrells. She got Margery arrested with false accusations and attempted to plant evidence, and she sent Loras on an obvious suicide mission. They have EVERY reason to lie to Cersei at this point.

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Any guess as who would be the fall guy in the tourney?


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ChillyPolly, you aren't making sense. Brienne and Jamie are currently WITH the BWB. That is who LS leads. Therefore of course the situation with the BWB needs to be resolved in some manner. Did you miss some chapters?

No, the Elder Brother's explanation left more questions than answers and it is in fact not at all clear why Sandor is still in this story. The Faith is hiding him, even from Brienne. That needs resolution.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Brienne and Jaime are not currenly with the BWB. The last we saw of them, they were together, in the Riverlands. Perhaps it is you who missed a chapter.

Yes, I know LS leads the BWB. But the last we saw of Brienne and Jaime, they were not with LS either. Brienne (whether alive or undead) has obviously either escaped from the BWB/LS, or been released by the BWB/LS, or been sent on a mission from the BWB/LS. We do not know because GRRM has DELIBERATELY failed to tell us what happened in the interim. Other than "take the sword and kill the kingslayer", we do not know what that mission is or was. Even if there is a mission other than "kill Jaime", there is no reason for her to return to BWB/LS prior to the accomplishment of that mission, or even after its accomplishment. Hence, she (whether alive or Undead) may be in the Vale, either on a mission from the BWB/LS, or in an attempt to escape the BWB/LS, or doing her own thing.

The Elder Brother's reasons for healing Sandor are obvious. His reasons for hiding Sandor are equally obvious. Anyone who failed to pick up on these reasons, has no particular reason to believe Sandor alive, since it is not something we are directly told. I never said I knew exactly what Sandor is going to do next, or what his long-term purpose in the story will be.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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SweetRobin is out in the open, a perfect place for the kid to die. He is sickly but he is in the open so no foul play could be blamed on certain people. Harry gets the Vale but what if he falls in the Tournament unexpectedly before Sweetrobin dies. then Littlefinger is fucked and Alayne and he may have to be on the move again.


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um....no reason?

Cersei made it abundantly clear she was trying to kill off the Tyrells. She got Margery arrested with false accusations and attempted to plant evidence, and she sent Loras on an obvious suicide mission. They have EVERY reason to lie to Cersei at this point.

Loras volunteered for that mission (indeed, Cersei was surprised by it). He would have no reason to suspect her. Moreover, Loras' crippling injuries were reported in AFFC Cersei VIII. Margaery is not arrested, and Cersei's moves against the Tyrells not exposed, until AFFC Cersei X. And even if you believe the Tyrells had inside information, Cersei herself had not come up with that plan until AFFC Cersei IX.

The timeline simply does not support the idea that Loras' injuries are some kind of mirage. The Tyrells have no reason to fake his near-death. Even after Cersei's plans are exposed, it doesn't make sense; Loras is needed in King's Landing to defend Margaery against the charges. His not being able to do that is one of the things that puts her in dire straits.

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Maybe the melee will show us some Freys too. Walton is Stevron's third son and Marsella Waynwood's first. He married a Hardyng and has two sons and one daughter. Hardyng and Waynwood are both houses from the Vale, and we know that among the Freys the strongest bonds run through the female lines. So it's not impossible to see them attending such an important event like the tourney at the gates.



The North remembers, what about the East?


Edited by Sandor Plissken

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Any guess as who would be the fall guy in the tourney?

Dunno what you mean by "fall guy". But all the recently-introduced minor characters currently being set up as favorites (Lyn Corbray, et al) are probably going to go down in flames before it is all done.

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Loras volunteered for that mission (indeed, Cersei was surprised by it). He would have no reason to suspect her. Moreover, Loras' crippling injuries were reported in AFFC Cersei VIII. Margaery is not arrested, and Cersei's moves against the Tyrells not exposed, until AFFC Cersei X. And even if you believe the Tyrells had inside information, Cersei herself had not come up with that plan until AFFC Cersei IX.

The timeline simply does not support the idea that Loras' injuries are some kind of mirage. The Tyrells have no reason to fake his near-death. Even after Cersei's plans are exposed, it doesn't make sense; Loras is needed in King's Landing to defend Margaery against the charges. His not being able to do that is one of the things that puts her in dire straits.

My suspicion is that Loras and his magician relatives are involved in a scheme to wake stone dragons (ie. cure dragons preserved in a state of advanced greyscale) with the aid of blood magic and human sacrifice. But I expect they will have nothing to do with the Vale for a while.

But that's just a theory. Since I really have no idea what Loras is up to, and since I think he is probably up to something, I really cannot rule out the possibility that he will turn up in the Vale.

Edited by ChillyPolly

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Dunno what you mean by "fall guy". But all the recently-introduced minor characters currently being set up as favorites (Lyn Corbray, et al) are probably going to go down in flames before it is all done.

Fall guy is the one blamed for a person's death, if HTH dies, who's the person without the dagger?

That is the question.

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Loras volunteered for that mission (indeed, Cersei was surprised by it). He would have no reason to suspect her. Moreover, Loras' crippling injuries were reported in AFFC Cersei VIII. Margaery is not arrested, and Cersei's moves against the Tyrells not exposed, until AFFC Cersei X. And even if you believe the Tyrells had inside information, Cersei herself had not come up with that plan until AFFC Cersei IX.

The timeline simply does not support the idea that Loras' injuries are some kind of mirage. The Tyrells have no reason to fake his near-death. Even after Cersei's plans are exposed, it doesn't make sense; Loras is needed in King's Landing to defend Margaery against the charges. His not being able to do that is one of the things that puts her in dire straits.

I have no idea if Loras is actually injured or not. We have only the word of Aurane Waters on the matter. Maybe he did fall stupidly into Cersei's trap even though it was obvious. Or maybe the Tyrells did something similar to what they did at the Blackwater. If they could dress Garlan as Renly to lead the battle then, they could certainly pass someone else off as Loras now. Their motive for doing so would be clear, because, again, the trap was obvious.

There is no doubt that Loras wants to avenge Renly and kill Stannis, so he did perhaps want to take Dragonstone. On the other hand he knows Stannis is not ON Dragonstone. There is no mention anywhere except words from dubious sources to Cersei that Dragonstone was even taken.

The point is that the Tyrells have very good reasons to lie, but we don't know if they are or not yet. Basically it is a question of whether or not they are completely stupid, which so far they have not seemed to be.

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Fall guy is the one blamed for a person's death, if HTH dies, who's the person without the dagger?

That is the question.

You're getting too far ahead of me. I'm willing to consider the possibility that Harry may die at the tournament ... but anything beyond that - such as the weapon used and who-if-anyone gets framed for the killing - is just too much speculation.

Unless you know something I don't.

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My standing prediction is that he's going to try and fail, but in the process of failing shake up the status quo.

That would be an extremely low quality and disappointing story teling. There are many ways to shake the status quo and George generally prefers the deaths of significant characters in an unexpected way.

There are already many characters who failed to even find Sansa. Writing a character who finds Sansa, who knows her true identity and having him failed to abduct Sansa serves no purpose and makes no sense.

Edited by Mithras

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Empty Dungeon cell peaked my interest so I went and re read that section, - AGAIN- and yes I think that Empty Dungeon, coupled with the suspicious identical knives will come into play. So not only has LF distributed knives but he has a place to hold prisoners. Someone is going to be a fall guy, now who will die and who will be framed? curiouser and curiouser.



As to the conversation between Belmore and LF as to BYR being blind. I think this simply refers to Alayne's beauty. Is he Blind, or merely stupid. right after he has commented on Alayne's bright eyes. Which she thanks him for, so it is meant as a compliment. I think Belmore is saying Royce must be blind if he doesn't realise Harry will be attracted to Alayne and maybe accept the proposal. And merely stupid because if he isn't blind ie: unaware of how beautiful Alayne is maybe he is stupid enough to believe Harry won't be turned by a pretty head. Because harry has already proven himself to be unable to keep it in his pants when faced with a pretty maid.



LF then goes on to say Harry is Nowise skilled enough to win a place. So confirmation he is less able with a lance and won't likely be capable of winning a place on his own merit. And he seems to be saying this as reason BYR has let him come. He has no fear the boy will end up wearing wings because he knows harry is not skilled at jousting. So we can pretty much guarantee LF has rigged the lists and Harry will win wings. I think LF wants Harry to win a pair of wings and the tourney and crown Alayne QoL&B. So giving her favour to someone else is about giving Harry a challenge, he wants Harry to want Alayne & to want to win to impress her, prove himself not just an upjumped squire and prove to her he was worthy of her favour. So who will she give it to? I think Albar royce, because no one else mentioned is of high enough social standing for Harry to perceive them as a threat to his suit. And the plan is most definitely to have him pursue Alayne and to the betrothal goes ahead, and if Harry wins a place he is near to her & LF and the marriage can not take place for three years. Plenty of time for LF to free Sansa from her marriage I imagine he assumes.



I still can't figure out who is getting murdered though. But the knives and the empty dungeon sure hint at someone dying.



OK so i am sure now LF has rigged the lists, so if the mad mouse has seen this by rifling the papers, how will he try to influence the outcome? Maybe he for some reason wants to prevent Harry from winning a place? maybe he is actually Royce's man? (just a random thought, I doubt it because Varys does in deed seem more likely)



The melee maybe is the place for the killing? in which case should we be looking not to the knights who will joust but to those in the retinue's who are too old, married, the fathers, older brothers hedge knights and household guards ect. Maybe though with the daggers it will be an assassination not an open "accidental" death.


But who might LF want dead of those who have come? not Harry it seems to me he really does want to match him to Alayne and get the army, someone who opposes his lordship? But BYR is not present. Anya Waynwood perhaps? the other adult with influence on the young heir?


Maybe he thinks to kill her at the tourney and starve BYR over the winter? And by spring harry has been under his influence for three years and is in love with his daughter and ready to marry her, and he thinks he has had time to rid Sansa of Tyrion. And a Winter is an understandable time for a young sickly lord to sucumb?


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