[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

[The Lady Lannister]

- Where is Rickon? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe male heirs take precedence over female heirs in the North. Hence, since Bran is turning into a tree and Jon won't accept Stannis's offer, Rickon is the legitimate heir to Winterfell and the North both in the books and in the show. Except in the show, there is no Manderly to send Davos to look for him. So where the h**** is Rickon and isn't that important?

Rickon is obviously busy hunting unicorns with Shaggy. I think it is important where he is, but the show may go with Roose's explanation of how young heirs are just inconvenience and easy to bump off.

[Michael Donahue]

When you think about it, AFFC/ADWD were clearly going to need reworking to make for effective television. There was a huge amount of individual character development, and having your entire cast split up to wander the landscape separately while reflecting on their lives wouldn't work in 1-hour episodes on screen. Similarly, following established characters (Jaime and Bronn) to a new setting to meet the new cast (Dorne and the Dornish) makes better TV than just cutting to a bunch of unfamiliar faces in an unfamiliar place.

Also, I don't doubt that D&D (and GRRM) are aware that books 4 and 5 are the least well-regarded among the readership; making changes to what some would call the weakest links of the series seems more defensible than messing with the bits that got us all hooked.

Now, regarding Sansa: if Littlefinger tells her that destroying the Boltons will require her to masquerade as Arya and get engaged to Ramsey, this would mean that Sansa, satisfyingly, has gone from unwitting pawn to player not by hatching dragons or summoning wolves or learning sorcery or becoming an assassin, but by recognizing her value and her strengths and using them effectively for her own ends, like Olenna and Margaery do and like Cersei thinks she does. I actually like seeing women employ their power and influence in a medieval setting without necessarily making them Amazons or witches or whatnot (in RL, powerful women shaped events in the Middle Ages without any fantasy power-ups).

Also: if Sansa agrees to pass herself off as Arya (as she remembers Arya), then we'll get to see Sophie Turner doing her best Maisie Williams impersonation. That alone would be worth it.

EDIT: New thought - the show couldn't afford/didn't want to add yet another location, and has skipped over White Harbor, but we only needed White Harbor so that Davos could learn from Manderly about the still-loyal-to-Stark faction among the Northern Lords. If "Sarya" goes to Winterfell, she could meet Manderly (and others) there and receive their whispered pledges of loyalty. Personally, I hope she doesn't have sex with Ramsey, but as she is pretending to be a younger girl, she could buy up to a month's time by pretending not to have flowered yet.

OR: oh, wait a minute....Roose is keen to marry Ramsey to "Arya" ASAP...nobody wants Ramsey to have awful abusive sex with Sansa, there are Vale knights, Manderlys and other Stark loyalists within the walls of Winterfell...when do they launch their revolt against the Freys/Boltons?

How about...right in the middle of the f***ing wedding? Oh yeah, the North remembers...

[Nefertari]

I predict Ramsay Snow will rape Sansa in episode 7. He definitely will rape or torture someone.

People are so upset about episode 1. Wait till the end of the season.

The worst is yet to come.

I agree.

Sansa in my opinion will definately get raped by Ramsay.

Tortured And whipped.

Compared to Ramsay Joffrey was a cute little purring kitten.

And i don't think LF has any feelings for her, he's just using her, all LF wants is power and Sansa is valuable.

I'm feeling very sad about her destiny, because i don't see how her story will end in a good way.

[Rippounet]

Ramsay is a psychopath who enjoys raping women.

Is he, though?

IIRC in the show he tortures and hunts, but I don't remember him raping anyone... In fact, in the show, he pretty much has a kind-of-stable relationship with Miranda doesn't he... ?

Show-Ramsay may turn out to be less twisted than book-Ramsay...

Edit: I really don't see Sansa being raped on the show. Especially not after the outrage over the Cersei-Jaime scene last year.

Now I'm wondering whether Natalia Tena is set to appear in season 5... ? If she is, it obviously means Osha and Rickon are in. If not, they might return in season 6.

[Typhoon Swell]

Roose breathing down Ramsay's neck will prevent him from doing any *permanent* damage to Sansa. Remember how pissed he was for what he did to Theon, this is a goddamn Stark and key to Northern loyalty we're talking about now. He won't let Ramsay fuck that up.

Uh, assuming Sansa marries Ramsay that is :ph34r:

[Newstar]

Based on the show and the story they are telling, as well as on interviews and on trailers, Sansa's a lock for getting to be the agent of her own destiny. From the look of things, it's more about Sansa becoming her own character (Sophie said she's still a prisoner, yet she's on control) and about reclaming what is hers. I see no rape indication, especially when Sophie said her traumatic scene was a 5/6. Do you consider a 5/6 a rape scene?

Let's break it down.

1. Sophie has said Sansa undergoes "a lot of hardships" this year.

2. Sophie has said it's Sansa's "hardest" year ever. Bear in mind that in previous years she's been beaten, threatened with rape, threatened with murder, and tormented by insane people.

3. On top of these other "hardships," Sophie in particular mentioned one "super traumatic" scene that was supposedly difficult for the crew members to watch.

4. When asked to summarize the season in one word, Sophie said "cruel."

5. Sophie said it's "definitely a dark season" for Sansa this year, and she becomes a "prisoner" again.

6. EW has said that Ramsay acquires a "new plaything."

7. Michael McElhatton has said that it gets "very ugly": "We do some terrible things to some lovely people."

8. Michael McElhatton has alluded to a wedding in his storyline.

9. Iwan Rheon has said that there was "a real moment this year" with some particularly sick, depraved stuff he had to psych himself up to play, but he mentioned that the finger scene with Theon didn't bother him, as it was so "technical" (with the fake gore).

10. David Benioff warned that Sansa and Arya's newfound confidence won't necessarily lead them to "bright, sunshiny places."

I don't think Sophie will have to film a rape scene, but I have no doubt that it will be clear that Sansa is raped. The traumatic scene could be the lead-up to the "cut to black" moment, similar to the equivalent wedding night scene in the books (sans nudity), or it could be something else.

If I had to guess, I think Sansa will start out the season as an agent of her own destiny--Littlefinger's partner in crime, cool, collected, and in control--only for things to go very, very badly for her once she winds up in the Boltons' hands, a "prisoner" who will be raped and abused by Ramsay.

As for what it means for the books, I don't know. Whatever Harry the Heir's flaws may be, I think we can acquit him of being a Ramsay-level psychopath.

[Nefertari]

Roose breathing down Ramsay's neck will prevent him from doing any *permanent* damage to Sansa. Remember how pissed he was for what he did to Theon, this is a goddamn Stark and key to Northern loyalty we're talking about now. He won't let Ramsay fuck that up.

Uh, assuming Sansa marries Ramsay that is :ph34r:

I really hope you're right.

But judging from actors interview Ramsay this season will be even more cruel, so they said, and he will do something viewers won't like at all.

Now, Sansa being tortured and raped by Ramsay is something people will hate for sure.

It also has the shock, because we feel Sansa has a plot shield and nothing "permanent" will happen to her, since now.

*edit*

Newstar wrote exactly what i was pointing out XD

Actors definately gave LOTS of hints.

[Rippounet]

Let's break it down.

1. Sophie has said Sansa undergoes "a lot of hardships" this year.

2. Sophie has said it's Sansa's "hardest" year ever. Bear in mind that in previous years she's been beaten, threatened with rape, threatened with murder, and tormented by insane people.

3. On top of these other "hardships," Sophie in particular mentioned one "super traumatic" scene that was supposedly difficult for the crew members to watch.

4. When asked to summarize the season in one word, Sophie said "cruel."

5. Sophie said it's "definitely a dark season" for Sansa this year, and she becomes a "prisoner" again.

6. EW has said that Ramsay acquires a "new plaything."

7. Michael McElhatton has said that it gets "very ugly": "We do some terrible things to some lovely people."

8. Michael McElhatton has alluded to a wedding in his storyline.

9. Iwan Rheon has said that there was "a real moment this year" with some particularly sick, depraved stuff he had to psych himself up to play, but he mentioned that the finger scene with Theon didn't bother him, as it was so "technical" (with the fake gore).

10. David Benioff warned that Sansa and Arya's newfound confidence won't necessarily lead them to "bright, sunshiny places."

Damn, you're convincing.

[Typhoon Swell]

Let's break it down.

1. Sophie has said Sansa undergoes "a lot of hardships" this year.

2. Sophie has said it's Sansa's "hardest" year ever. Bear in mind that in previous years she's been beaten, threatened with rape, threatened with murder, and tormented by insane people.

3. On top of these other "hardships," Sophie in particular mentioned one "super traumatic" scene that was supposedly difficult for the crew members to watch.

4. When asked to summarize the season in one word, Sophie said "cruel."

5. Sophie said it's "definitely a dark season" for Sansa this year, and she becomes a "prisoner" again.

6. EW has said that Ramsay acquires a "new plaything."

7. Michael McElhatton has said that it gets "very ugly": "We do some terrible things to some lovely people."

8. Michael McElhatton has alluded to a wedding in his storyline.

9. Iwan Rheon has said that there was "a real moment this year" with some particularly sick, depraved stuff he had to psych himself up to play, but he mentioned that the finger scene with Theon didn't bother him, as it was so "technical" (with the fake gore).

10. David Benioff warned that Sansa and Arya's newfound confidence won't necessarily lead them to "bright, sunshiny places."

Well shit. Sorry Sansa.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Let's break it down.

1. Sophie has said Sansa undergoes "a lot of hardships" this year.

2. Sophie has said it's Sansa's "hardest" year ever. Bear in mind that in previous years she's been beaten, threatened with rape, threatened with murder, and tormented by insane people.

3. On top of these other "hardships," Sophie in particular mentioned one "super traumatic" scene that was supposedly difficult for the crew members to watch.

4. When asked to summarize the season in one word, Sophie said "cruel."

5. Sophie said it's "definitely a dark season" for Sansa this year, and she becomes a "prisoner" again.

6. EW has said that Ramsay acquires a "new plaything."

7. Michael McElhatton has said that it gets "very ugly": "We do some terrible things to some lovely people."

8. Michael McElhatton has alluded to a wedding in his storyline.

9. Iwan Rheon has said that there was "a real moment this year" with some particularly sick, depraved stuff he had to psych himself up to play, but he mentioned that the finger scene with Theon didn't bother him, as it was so "technical" (with the fake gore).

10. David Benioff warned that Sansa and Arya's newfound confidence won't necessarily lead them to "bright, sunshiny places."

I don't think Sophie will have to film a rape scene, but I have no doubt that it will be clear that Sansa is raped. The traumatic scene could be the lead-up to the "cut to black" moment, similar to the equivalent wedding night scene in the books (sans nudity), or it could be something else.

11. Alfie says there's something that happens about halfway through this season that is really going to make huge waves, and people aren't going to be happy about it, it's hard to watch, I bear witness to this thing, and it's crazy, sort of having to portray how messed up everyone's situation is through my own reactions to what happens, get ready for it.

Agree on the "cut to black" moment

[Cas Stark]

It's been theorized that whatever terrible thing he does, it's done to Myranda, not Sansa. Having Sansa be a rape victim might be too much of a twist even for the show. But then I never believed they would send her to WF to marry Ramsay either, so what do I know. Valar Morghulis

[Typhoon Swell]

It's been theorized that whatever terrible thing he does, it's done to Myranda, not Sansa. Having Sansa be a rape victim might be too much of a twist even for the show. But then I never believed they would send her to WF to marry Ramsay either, so what do I know. Valar Morghulis

The hints point to something happening to someone loved. No one gives a shit about Myranda.

[juanml82]

One of the episode summaries (I don't remember which one) says "Winterfell prepares for a wedding"

Now, Ramsay hasn't hurt Myranda (yet), so he might very well not hurt Sansa. The show can easily write their relationship as a different relationship than Ramsay-Jeyne and make sense: A real Stark validates Ramsay (which is one of the two things he wants) and strokes his ego, while a fake Stark aims squarely at his issues with bastardy. He was born with nothing. Suddenly, he's not just a Bolton, he's marrying into a beautiful Stark of Winterfell. Is very different than being awarded a steward's daughter pretending to be a real Stark - that can feel like an insult (a fake Stark to a fake Bolton).

As for the risk of bigamy, if the show finds an excuse, why would Roose be bothered with his bastard's offpring risking illegitimacy? He's busy making real Boltons with Fat Walda*. If anything, it's best for him if the legitimacy of any son of Ramsay can be called into question.

And finally, let's assume Sansa is able to turn Ramsay against his father (rather easy) and, one blowjob at a time, turn him into her attack dog. Would she choose, given the opportunity, an incoming Stannis over a manipulated Ramsay? Ramsay is a man of simple tastes after all. She will know what he wants (if anything, Theon will tell her, or it will be obvious). Just like Littlefinger, he can be the devil she knows, while Stannis remains a stranger. And it were Roose and Theon the ones who betrayed Robb. Ramsay burnt Winterfell, aye, but regarding betraying her family, he was just there to pick the pieces.

From actors interviews, Ramsay seems to survive the season and Sansa ends in an ambiguous position. I'm not exactly sure Sansa and Stannis will team up, and I seriously doubt Sansa being rescued in one way or another is a satisfying ending.

*Fat Walda might get pregnant, be killed and Ramsay (or someone else) could say it's a mercy - had the child been born, he might have grown to be a Frey. How would Roose take that?

[Typhoon Swell]

OR Sansa goes full Darth and is turned by Ramsay. That would be interesting.

[Cas Stark]

One of the episode summaries (I don't remember which one) says "Winterfell prepares for a wedding"

Now, Ramsay hasn't hurt Myranda (yet), so he might very well not hurt Sansa. The show can easily write their relationship as a different relationship than Ramsay-Jeyne and make sense: A real Stark validates Ramsay (which is one of the two things he wants) and strokes his ego, while a fake Stark aims squarely at his issues with bastardy. He was born with nothing. Suddenly, he's not just a Bolton, he's marrying into a beautiful Stark of Winterfell. Is very different than being awarded a steward's daughter pretending to be a real Stark - that can feel like an insult (a fake Stark to a fake Bolton).

As for the risk of bigamy, if the show finds an excuse, why would Roose be bothered with his bastard's offpring risking illegitimacy? He's busy making real Boltons with Fat Walda*. If anything, it's best for him if the legitimacy of any son of Ramsay can be called into question.

And finally, let's assume Sansa is able to turn Ramsay against his father (rather easy) and, one blowjob at a time, turn him into her attack dog. Would she choose, given the opportunity, an incoming Stannis over a manipulated Ramsay? Ramsay is a man of simple tastes after all. She will know what he wants (if anything, Theon will tell her, or it will be obvious). Just like Littlefinger, he can be the devil she knows, while Stannis remains a stranger. And it were Roose and Theon the ones who betrayed Robb. Ramsay burnt Winterfell, aye, but regarding betraying her family, he was just there to pick the pieces.

From actors interviews, Ramsay seems to survive the season and Sansa ends in an ambiguous position. I'm not exactly sure Sansa and Stannis will team up, and I seriously doubt Sansa being rescued in one way or another is a satisfying ending.

*Fat Walda might get pregnant, be killed and Ramsay (or someone else) could say it's a mercy - had the child been born, he might have grown to be a Frey. How would Roose take that?

LOL. I'm sorry this is just too crazy even for D&D. Sansa Stark turns herself into an S&M bondage mistress in order to control a torturing/rapist, whom she will choose over Stannis Baratheon, because he's the 'devil she knows'.

[Newstar]

It's been theorized that whatever terrible thing he does, it's done to Myranda, not Sansa. Having Sansa be a rape victim might be too much of a twist even for the show. But then I never believed they would send her to WF to marry Ramsay either, so what do I know. Valar Morghulis

Sophie says that Sansa undergoes a lot of hardships. She also strongly implies that Sansa is the one being traumatized in the super traumatic scene. Roose's actor says that the Boltons do terrible things to "some lovely people." Myranda is not a lovely person; she's a nasty piece of work. Also, EW says that Ramsay acquires a new plaything; Myranda is already his lover.

[Shinjinobrave]

Ramsay is the worst person in Westeros, anything short of that is character assassination. He would never be 'under Sansa's spell' that's ridiculous. Even if he was, that doesn't exclude him doing monstrous things.

[voodooqueen126]

Let's break it down.

1. Sophie has said Sansa undergoes "a lot of hardships" this year.

2. Sophie has said it's Sansa's "hardest" year ever. Bear in mind that in previous years she's been beaten, threatened with rape, threatened with murder, and tormented by insane people.

3. On top of these other "hardships," Sophie in particular mentioned one "super traumatic" scene that was supposedly difficult for the crew members to watch.

4. When asked to summarize the season in one word, Sophie said "cruel."

5. Sophie said it's "definitely a dark season" for Sansa this year, and she becomes a "prisoner" again.

6. EW has said that Ramsay acquires a "new plaything."

7. Michael McElhatton has said that it gets "very ugly": "We do some terrible things to some lovely people."

8. Michael McElhatton has alluded to a wedding in his storyline.

9. Iwan Rheon has said that there was "a real moment this year" with some particularly sick, depraved stuff he had to psych himself up to play, but he mentioned that the finger scene with Theon didn't bother him, as it was so "technical" (with the fake gore).

10. David Benioff warned that Sansa and Arya's newfound confidence won't necessarily lead them to "bright, sunshiny places."

I don't think Sophie will have to film a rape scene, but I have no doubt that it will be clear that Sansa is raped. The traumatic scene could be the lead-up to the "cut to black" moment, similar to the equivalent wedding night scene in the books (sans nudity), or it could be something else.

If I had to guess, I think Sansa will start out the season as an agent of her own destiny--Littlefinger's partner in crime, cool, collected, and in control--only for things to go very, very badly for her once she winds up in the Boltons' hands, a "prisoner" who will be raped and abused by Ramsay.

As for what it means for the books, I don't know. Whatever Harry the Heir's flaws may be, I think we can acquit him of being a Ramsay-level psychopath.

I wonder why Littlefinger is doing this to Sansa? Is he angry at her for her "don't I know what you want" comment at the end of last season?

[Newstar]

Assuming that Sansa essentially takes Jeyne's role, I think that the ambiguous ending will be Sansa and Theon jumping off the Winterfell walls without it being clear if either survived.

[HexMachina]

LOL. I'm sorry this is just too crazy even for D&D. Sansa Stark turns herself into an S&M bondage mistress in order to control a torturing/rapist, whom she will choose over Stannis Baratheon, because he's the 'devil she knows'.

Agreed. Even the joke of Sansa Onatopp that was (humourously) suggested in the casti.g tread would e bettrr than that