What's up with House Blackwood?

[LmL]

Yes, they are, because they've been there since before the Long Night. But, they sure do look an awful lot like Valyrians. And hey look, an anachronistic, 10,000 year old magic sword. Hmm. I wonder, could these Daynes be descended from the ancient ancestors of Valyrians? Why yes, yes they could (check out Fingerprints of the Dawn in my signature).

[Alester Florent]

Aren't the Daynes counted amongst the first men families in Dorne?

The Daynes, Yronwoods, Wyls and Fowlers can trace their history back to the First Men, and possibly others whose origin is as yet unspecified.

[LmL]

What are you saying is impossible unless Blackwoods, Royces and Redforts were only marrying each other and Northern families which we know for certain is not true. Thus, ethnically, Blackwoods are no more First Men then the majority of other Southern Houses.

This is wrong. There are more than those four FM Houses, and their vassals are FM families too in many cases. And yes, the FM families do make an effort to intermarry. Starks take Royces and Blackwoods more than once for marriages. The entire North and large parts of the Vale are still concentrated FM genes. Right at the beginning on the book, they tell us that "the blood of the first men" runs strongly in the veins of the Starks, which means that First Men houses can and do keep their bloodlines fairly pure.

Also, we don't know how much magic blood is needed - Nettles didn't look Targ, but rode a dragon. The Stark kids have a Tully parent or a Targ parent, they can skinchanger. Do you need 50%? 25%? No one knows. A drop may be enough.

[Dofs]

This is wrong. There are more than those four FM Houses, and their vassals are FM families too in many cases. And yes, the FM families do make an effort to intermarry. Starks take Royces and Blackwoods more than once for marriages. The entire North and large parts of the Vale are still concentrated FM genes. Right at the beginning on the book, they tell us that "the blood of the first men" runs strongly in the veins of the Starks, which means that First Men houses can and do keep their bloodlines fairly pure.

We know that Blackwoods have Bracken blood in them, we know that a Blackwood was married to Walder Frey. For sure they had married with a lot of Riverlands Houses as well. The major point of feudalism is to make alliances through marriages and for sure Blackwoods and Royces have done that a lot of times in their history, like Starks did by marrying with Tully's, for example. And also, the vast majority of Westerosi houses are of First Men origin. The only regions who were actually defeated and conquered by Andals were (ironically) the Vale and Riverlands. All others were not actually defeated and supplanted by the Andals and there should still be a lot of First Men blood in them. Ethnically, Lannisters may be no less FM then Blackwoods, for all we know.

[LmL]

Lann the Clever came from the east. The GeoDawnians had hair of gold and silver and platinum.

The Lannisters are GeoDawnians. The Casterlys were dragons, and Lann a dragon slayer. Casterlys Rock is a cave full of gold - of course it used to be guarded by a dragon. Duh.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

According to the Stark family tree in TWOIAF, Edwyle was older than Jocelyn. ;)

Big Fat Hairy Balls!!

Well that is that theory fucked then.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Wasn't that Merrett, not Whalen?

Wiki said Whalen? :dunno:

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Weirwoods Eyes, enjoyed your comments. One thing regarding Alys Rivers: sounds like she is seeing visions in the night fires! She saw Daemon in her cook fire, and then we get the "she sees much and more" line which smacks of Melissandre. I for one am sold on Radio Westeros' theory that Mel is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shierra Seastar (check their website to read that), so we may have a clue here that seeing things in night fires isn't exclusive to R'hllorists? Perhaps this is a Blackwood / FM ability? Seems off, but then, is Alys Rivers a R'hllorist? It has to be one or the other.

This brings up an interesting idea I've mused on a bit, regarding mixed magical heritages. When Bloodracen uses magic, is it greenseeing or Targaryen fire magic? They have prophetic dreams and some supernatural abilities (some have resistance to fire and disease). And speaking of Blackwoods, because Egg married a Blckwood and the two generations after we'd brother to sister, Daenerys is half Blackwood also, as is Rhaegar. So what magical lineages are Dany, Jon, etc really drawing from? They have both available, potentially. Does Dany's Blackwood genetics give her an easier ability to bond with her dragons? Wild speculation, but there you go.

Also, Egg's mother was a Dayne. That's important too, I think.

Thank you. Basically that quote from TP&TQ was like a huge flashing beacon to me when I read it, because I've spent a lot of time looking in detail at the Red Priests. I loved that we got a hint here that the Fire reading has nothing to do with some god named R'hllor. When you look closely tbh most everything the red priests do can be seen being done by others.

My own theory on the Red Priests is that in this world there are certain people who carry various genes which enable them to practice certain magics, So a Warg Gene a Seer Gene, a Dragon bonding Gene, etc and there are magics which can be learnt, Shadow binding, using the glass candles, fire magic to heal and raise the dead, Blood magics etc and the Red Temples buy children or are sometimes gifted them, and filter these children for magical abillity, they are looking for children who have the seer gene specifically, when they find one they train it up as a Priest and those kids who turn out to not have what it takes are trained as The Fiery Hands & the sacred temple prostitutes.

Alys Rivers didn't just use cook fires to see events she uses storm clouds and pools in short she is using three out of four elements here Air, Fire & Water. which I found very intriguing.

Although I love Radio Westeros and Find Yolkboy & Lady Gwyn fantastic and lovely people too might I add. I'm not really a buyer for Mel being Sheira & Bryden's daughter.

Also every single red Priest can read fire, that would be a lot of Blackwood blood to be distributed globally because the R'hllorist Priest are very plentiful.

Targaryens seem to produce some offspring with prophetic dreams, now this is not the same as seeing via a medium such as Alys does, and we are not told if she has dreams or not.

Maybe the Targ dreams and the greendreams are the same thing? And what Alys had was something else, it feels to me that they are all related anyhow, and didn't the Children once cover the whole of Planetos? I certainly felt this was implied in the world book.

You'll have to excuse me whilst I start twitching at your reference to Danaerys being "half" Blackwood. No she is not half blackwood, he blood is not literally 50% Betha's blood. Besides which Betha isn't the result of inbreeding and carries genes from whatever houses have married into the Blackwoods over the years.

This is simply not how genetics works. You get half the genes from each parent and the copy of each individual gene that your parents carry won't be identical because they were siblings.

One sibling might carry two copies the brown eye gene and the other might have one copy of the brown and one the blue, and their baby might get the same, and it's sibling might get the same now we have two children both of whom have one brown and one blue gene, they might have a baby and the baby may inherit both the blue eye genes, meaning the brown eye gene got lost from the family tree. Now that baby might go on to marry its sibling too and dependant upon if the sibling got one of each or two brown or two blue their own offspring may or may not inherit the brown eye gene.

And every Targaryen is not interbred, egg was not, and neither were so very many others so each time this happens the potential for the loss of the dragon bonding gene or the prophetic dream gene (maybe it is one and the same?) and of course the intake of other genes, the ones that gave Baelor Breakspear brown hair, the ones which gave Bittersteel brown hair, the gene that gave Allysanne blue eyes all these must have arrived with the mating with non Targs. So Whilst Betha Blackwood passed her genes onto Jaehaerys & Shaera, that doesn't mean that all those genes got passed down to Aerys or Rhaella, or to Danaerys some will have and some will have not, clearly Dany never got the Black hair gene. But clearly she did get whatever element it is that gives Dragon dreams and allows her to bond with Drogon and ride him. For all we know Rhaegar got the Dragon bond gene and passed it to Jon, and Dany got it, but Viserys didn't get it. We also know that having it doesn't guarantee a particular dragon will accept you. Aemond was taking a huge risk approaching Vhagar. And inspite of riding her own dragon Sunfyre had no issue eating Rhaenyra.

Can Dany have inherited any useful genes from Betha? possibly, both sets of abilities to dream prophetic dreams and to form an otherworldly bond with an animal seem similar? maybe unknowingly they are? Or maybe not. I love speculating on the magical aspects of the books.

If you are interested I started a couple of threads one focussed on the Red Priests and another on all the magic in series and how it may be linked.

[HexMachina]

House blackwood seem to have strong Greenseer abilities, and are one of the few southern houses still loyal to the Old Gods.

Obviously we know Bloodraven has these abilities, But I think we have seen another Blackwood bastard who displays seer type qualities. Alys Rivers who we meet in The Princess & The Queen, she is described as having long black hair which seems to be the defining feature of Blackwood women. With so many of them having the monika of Black in their names.

This is a quote from Aemond Targaryen about Alys's abilities.

"She saw you in a storm cloud, in a mountain pool at dusk, in the fire we lit to cook our suppers. She sees much and more, my Alys."

So if she is a Blackwood bastard then that seems to link the idea that they have strong seer genes. Another interesting thing is the woman in Brans vision at the end of ADWD, she is heavy with child (As was Alys, which is another reason I think they are both Blackwoods I think GRRM is linking the two women in our minds by giving them very similar appearances.) and rises out of the pool at Winterfell praying for a son to avenge her. I think she is Mellantha Blackwood, wife of Willam Stark, mother to Jocelyn & Edwyle. I think she is praying for a son because after Willams death his brother Artos is trying to usurp her childrens inheritance of Winterfell. This works if Jocelyn is the older and the baby in her belly is Edwyle.

If I'm right about this, and we will find out once She Wolves is published. Then we have another Blackwood woman using mysterious magical perhaps but definitely old Gods connected stuff.

As we know looking at the Stark family tree All the current Stark line are her direct descendants because Edwyle is their great grandaddy making her their great great grandma.

And Jon of course has another great great grandma Blackwood Black Betha Aegon V's Queen consort. Which brings me to my ponderings on The Ghost of High heart. Do we think Aegon having a Blackwood wife may have influenced how mush she (TGoHH) was listened too at his court? Certainly the Ghost is the embodiment of Old Gods she has white hair, pale skin & red eyes, her hair is very long and flowing, just like Alys Rivers is described. And the only other Red eyed person we have met is Bloodraven, could The Ghost even possibly be a Blackwood descendant herself? Is the Albino gene in their bloodline we know that some greenseers have red eyes from Leaf and others moss green, (Jojens eyes turn moss green after his fever.) The Ghost is undoubtedly a greendreamer. is she part Child of the forest? Jenny of Oldstones claimed she was a child, but she doesn't look like Leaf does, and the main evidence for her being one is her diminutive stature. Might she just be part child? Or maybe the Blackwoods have Child of the Forest blood and this is where there seer/skinchanging gene comes from? in which case maybe she just got a bit of recessive short arse gene too?

Black Aly Blackwood wed Cregan stark, but the Stark Lordship was passed down via his son with Lynarra Stark (a cousin no doubt) But he had 4 daughters with Black Allysanne Blackwood one of whom was named Alys (another hint Alys Rivers is a Blackwood) But might this match also hint that Starks wed blackwoods and Blackwoods wed starks? We know the Blackwoods used to rule half the wolfswood but the Starks beat them back, was that peace sealed with a marriage/marriages could the Skinchanging gene be from Bloodravens potential Stark blood? (I'm just speculating here) and his greenseer gene be from his Blackwood blood?

With Bran getting his greenseer gene from Mellantha Blackwoods side of his heritage? And his Warging/Skinchanging gene from the Stark side.

Anyway I don't think I've revealed anything which is solid or makes sense. hahaha. But these are basically the sum total of my musings upon the House and I think we will indeed see more of them going forward in the story. They seem very interesting and to offer a lot more to the story than one thinks at first glance.

A final point of note Blackwood is one of the houses tywin thinks cat will marry sansa to if she is returned to her mother. in fact it is the first house he thinks she would choose on his list. Hmm. interesting they don't seem a hugely powerful riverlands house at the moment but the historical connections between the two are very interesting.

Oh one last thought (really this time) Walder Frey has 5 children by his 4th wife Alyssa Blackwood. I'd watch those Blackwood blooded Frey's for signs of any abillity I think.

Interesting idea about Alys Rivers. My main problem there is that the Blackwoods where for Rhaenyra, so it would strike me as slightly odd if Alys was a Blackwood and bedmate of Aemond. I guess if she had been, hmmm, less than friendly with her family it could work though

[Bironic]

This isn't a complete list, but it shows that quite a lot of the prominent noble houses in the south are of First Men descent, although they have certainly intermarried with Andals and have taken much of the Andal culture(including Faith of the Seven, Written & Spoken Language, Ironworking) for their own. I did not consider other influences like rhoynish, valyrian influences.

First Men Houses in the Vale: Royce, Redfort, Hunter, Belmore, Coldwater, Shett, Upcliff. Andal Houses: Arryn, Waynwood, Templeton, Grafton, Corbray, Tollett,

Riverlands FM: Tully, Blackwood, Bracken, Mooton, Darry, Piper?

Andals: Vypren, Frey?, Mallister?

Westerlands FM: Lannister(!?), Crakehall, Banefort, Plumm, Farman, Greenfield, Foote, Westerling, Broom, Moreland, Yew, Hawthorne, Andals: Marbrand, Lydden, Jast, Serrett, Brax, Lefford, Sarsfield, Kyndall, Parren, Droxe,

Reach FM: Hightower, Redwyne, Florent, Rowan, Oakheart, Fossoway, Tarly, Bulwer, Crane, Beesbury, Andal: Tyrell, Cuy, Roxton, Orme, Leygood, Graceford, Varner, Uffering,

Stormland/Crownland FM: Tarth, Estermont, Massey, Swann, Caron, Andal: Dondarrion, Bar Emmon,

Dorne FM: Yronwood, Fowler, Dayne, Wyl,Wade, Shell, Andal: Uller, Qorgyle, Vaith, Allyrion, Jordayne, Santagar, Martell

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Wasn't that Merrett, not Whalen?

It was both.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

This isn't a complete list, but it shows that quite a lot of the prominent noble houses in the south are of First Men descent, although they have certainly intermarried with Andals and have taken much of the Andal culture(including Faith of the Seven, Written & Spoken Language, Ironworking) for their own. I did not consider other influences like rhoynish, valyrian influences.

First Men Houses in the Vale: Royce, Redfort, Hunter, Belmore, Coldwater, Shett, Upcliff. Andal Houses: Arryn, Waynwood, Templeton, Grafton, Corbray, Tollett,

Riverlands FM: Tully, Blackwood, Bracken, Mooton, Darry, Piper?

Andals: Vypren, Frey?, Mallister?

Westerlands FM: Lannister(!?), Crakehall, Banefort, Plumm, Farman, Greenfield, Foote, Westerling, Broom, Moreland, Yew, Hawthorne, Andals: Marbrand, Lydden, Jast, Serrett, Brax, Lefford, Sarsfield, Kyndall, Parren, Droxe,

Reach FM: Hightower, Redwyne, Florent, Rowan, Oakheart, Fossoway, Tarly, Bulwer, Crane, Beesbury, Andal: Tyrell, Cuy, Roxton, Orme, Leygood, Graceford, Varner, Uffering,

Stormland/Crownland FM: Tarth, Estermont, Massey, Swann, Caron, Andal: Dondarrion, Bar Emmon,

Dorne FM: Yronwood, Fowler, Dayne, Wyl,Wade, Shell, Andal: Uller, Qorgyle, Vaith, Allyrion, Jordayne, Santagar, Martell

Pretty good list.

Genetically speaking I doubt the andals make up that much of westeros. The anglo saxons only make up 30% or so of English DNA, and England is a lot smaller than westeros.

I estimate that the smallfolk are almost entirely (80-90%) of first men descent, with the nobility being slightly more andalised at roughly 60-70% first men.

[Alester Florent]

As far as tracing bloodlines go, due to the extensive incest that saw only three productive marriages outside the family in the first two hundred years of Targ rule, and two of those to other Valyrian houses, it would be reasonable to say that Daeron II was 7/8 Valyrian (the other 1/8 being Arryn, and therefore Andal, given that the Arryns are just about the most Andal house in Westeros).

After that, though, the bloodline gets thinned. Daeron married a Martell so the Valyrian blood drops to 7/16, and then Maekar married a Dayne which introduces First Men blood for the first time, followed by Aegon's marriage to a Blackwood. Although marriages from there on were brother-sister so Dany has roughly the same proportions going on as Jaehaerys II did, that's still only about 10% Valyrian, and only 2.5% Targaryen.

If the Blackwoods and Daynes have been more scrupulous about marrying First Men houses by preference, modern Targs might have more FM blood than Valyrian. It doesn't show at least in part because the Daynes have similar looks to the Targs despite not apparently being Valyrian themselves.

But then, fantasy genetics.

[James Arryn]

Agree, Blackwood is the Royce/Dayne of the RL; GRRM fancies them.

[LmL]

Nice work Bironic, thanks for that. :)

It's interesting that after marrying a Dayne, the Targaryen looks were strengthened. I really think this is significant, because the Daynes are descended from the proto-Valyrians, the Great Empire of the Dawn. By marrying Daynes, we've united two descendants of the GEotD. If the Lannisters are GEotD too (I've tried to avoid this one, but cannot), then Tyrion Targaryen is doing the same thing, bringing the GEotD blood together. Not sure if George is going this deep on genetics but you can't sell him short, he goes pretty damn deep on this stuff.

As for the half-Blackwood thing, I see your point. I am merely pointing out that since Egg married Betha, there has been no outside blood added. Eggs kids married, their kids married, then we get Rhaegar and Daenerys. Again, I don't know if George intends us to think about Dany having Blackwood blood (of any %) or not, but since we are not clear on what magic comes from where, I'm sort of keeping this idea in the back of my mind.

[anonnyscouse]

So if Mel's fire-reading (or however you want to term it) comes from Blackwood blood like Alys then what about Moquorro (who, if anything, has better skills than Mel)?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yea the % blood thing really enrages me. I have no idea why so many people seem to think that blood is measured out in % when people either inherit genes from their parents or they do not. My son has his grandma's nose but my husband has his own dad's but clearly inspite of not having his mum's nose he passed that onto our child.Which means he carries the gene for it, our son might have a child who inherits mine, or my fathers maybe, it all depends on which genes DH & I passed on to him. This thing of thinking people carry a % of their ancestors blood is crackers.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So if Mel's fire-reading (or however you want to term it) comes from Blackwood blood like Alys then what about Moquorro (who, if anything, has better skills than Mel)?

This is my issue with the idea that it must be a purely Blackwood, or purely 1st man thing. Because as far as we know All red Priests read flames. Mellisandre, Thoros, Benerro, Moqorro, and the various nameless ones we have seen throughout the books. So it can't simply be a 1st man or Blackwood exclusive.

Alys Rivers whoever she was was not a Red Priestess, infact r'hllor is not mentioned in any of the current novella's I used to think this meant it was a "modern" religion which came from the ruin of Valyria, but then upon further delving into the books and on the World Books release it became very clear that R'hllor was in fact a god worshipped IN Valyria itself. And so whilst it didn't come out of the ruin it did come out of Valyria. And seemingly the popularity of the religion has risen across Essos over the years, because now it is spreading considerably and is hugely popular.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Interesting idea about Alys Rivers. My main problem there is that the Blackwoods where for Rhaenyra, so it would strike me as slightly odd if Alys was a Blackwood and bedmate of Aemond. I guess if she had been, hmmm, less than friendly with her family it could work though

I think it likely that she simply had her own agenda. Aemond left her with child, maybe her vision gave her incentive to pursue a relationship with him because she saw their child's future and it had significance? Maybe she just fancied him? maybe she had beef with her Blackwood family. Easy for a Bastard who say was not treated as well as might be hoped to turn against her relatives.

[Sullen]

Wasn't that Merrett, not Whalen?

Many Freys participate to the drinking contest, I think both Petyr Pimple and Whalen pass out while Merett keeps on drinking even as the massacre takes place.