[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIII - Ghosts of offers passed

[Mithras]

I think the detail about Sansa hearing "a shadow wearing the face of Stannis killed Renly" is something to be kept in mind. It has a potential to sow mistrust to Sansa against Stannis if she somehow comes to believe it.

[voodooqueen126]

I think the detail about Sansa hearing "a shadow wearing the face of Stannis killed Renly" is something to be kept in mind. It has a potential to sow mistrust to Sansa against Stannis if she somehow comes to believe it.

That's interesting because it seems like the show wants to emphasise that Sansa can't trust anybody: she can't trust Brienne and she can't trust Stannis... She has nobody but Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa will only trust her kin, her sibblings. probable for the rest of her character's life. For how ever long that will be.

[ADanceWithCats]

I'm kind of wondering... LF obviously didn't vet Ramsay properly. Did Ned vet Joffrey?

[Lord Damian]

I'm kind of wondering... LF obviously didn't vet Ramsay properly. Did Ned vet Joffrey?

this is why this seems to be a huge plothole, Littlefinger is always thinking 3-4 steps ahead, like a chess player as well as thinking on the "fly". A decision like this regarding the one he covets the most - Sansa, makes absolutely no sense. However, LF - the tv guy is perhaps driven by something totally different than LF - book guy. That is the only explaination I can think off.

[Wouter]

Sansa seemed to notice the pommel of the sword; a lionhead. In that sense, this and the similar moment with Arya are effectively the show-adaptations of Brienne being rejected and distrusted by lady Stoneheart. Her Lannister possessions - including the sword - played a very prominent role there.

Since Brienne doggedly keeps following Sansa and a trailer showed her and Pod in a snowstorm, it seems very likely that the show won't have her fail over and over again and she'll gain Sansa's trust at the end. Brienne may have to choose between taking a shot at killing Stannis and saving Sansa; if so, she'll pick the latter.

I doubt whether Sansa will join Stannis though, as Jeyne did in the books. For all we know, Brienne would take her back to the Riverlands or to the Vale. This could bring her back to her book-arc, which seems to be revolving around LF (who I doubt will be backing Stannis, not even in the show) and the Vale, at least for now. After her probable marriage with Ramsay, Sansa might have reasons to be angry with LF.

[catstory]

From Littlefinger's point of view, there is not much point to hiding Sansa's identity. Tywin is the one everyone feared, and Jeofry is also dead. I don't think he fears Cerci, and he has the protection of the Vale. Roose Bolton need a way to legitimize this claim on the North. I am wondering what LF gets out of the bargain. But I also think his gamble is that the Bolton's will not last long in the North, and then he and Sansa can rule there. He will never forget that he lost Cat to the Lord of Winterfell. That seems like a suitable redemption for him. I can see LF setting the North against Bolton once he is up there. Can't you see LF wispering to Theon, trying to convince him to save Sansa and take her to Sannis? But characters like Wyman Manderly are not cast, so it seems likely that he appeals straight Theon and to Stannis. Now that John Snow has refused Stannis and is Lord Commander, Stannis would certainly like to rescue Sansa for the North. The battle of Winterfell will be central to the upcoming book, so I am sure series is leading up to that as well, despite all the corners being cut.

[HexMachina]

I'm kind of wondering... LF obviously didn't vet Ramsay properly. Did Ned vet Joffrey?

Ha! Well I never liked Ned or Robert for doing that tbh. "Ned, my son is a monster...but let's marry him to your daughter, cuz we be BFFs again, m'kay?"

[Raksha 2014]

this is why this seems to be a huge plothole, Littlefinger is always thinking 3-4 steps ahead, like a chess player as well as thinking on the "fly". A decision like this regarding the one he covets the most - Sansa, makes absolutely no sense. However, LF - the tv guy is perhaps driven by something totally different than LF - book guy. That is the only explaination I can think off.

TV-Littlefinger is not as smart, or at least not as crafty, as bookFinger. It definitely makes no sense for him to entrust his prize pawn to the family that slaughtered her mother and brother and their bannermen; at least not without having placed several trusted agents in Winterfell/the Dreadfort already who are ready to help Sansa if she needs him. It's not like Littlefinger lives down the road from Casa Bolton and can just pop in to take tea and check on the girl; he's based hundreds of miles away; and Winter is Coming.

Hopefully Theon and/or Brienne will help Sansa; I can't imagine that she is going to be able to manipulate Ramsay and Roose on her own - Sansa's no fool, but she's what, barely 17 on the show, no match in experience for Roose, and Ramsay is a psycho/sadist who is probably not going to be vulnerable to her charms. I'm not sure how Sansa will get out of consummating a marriage with Ramsay, it probably won't be pleasant ( :eek: ); and he's got a strong motive to get her pregnant with a Stark/Bolton heir.

[Envie]

Ha! Well I never liked Ned or Robert for doing that tbh. "Ned, my son is a monster...but let's marry him to your daughter, cuz we be BFFs again, m'kay?"

Robert had no way of knowing his very young son at that stage was a "monster" because Joffrey's true colors didn't come out until much later after Robert was dead. The incident along the way to King's Landing with Micah the Butcher's boy and Arya is probably the first inkling anyone has (book or show) that Joffrey's actually a lot worse than just a spoiled prince - but only because he has the Hound kill Micah (or maybe Cersei did that?) ... I'm sure Ned never wanted Sansa married to a Lannister's kid in the first place but what choice did he have since he went along with Robert's demand to leave Winterfell and come with him and be the Hand anyways? Yeah he made a wrong choice there, but he also had no way of knowing Joffrey was a monster either at that stage.

Now with Littlefinger, on the other hand, you would think he'd be well aware that Ramsay and the Boltons in general are just bad juju all the way around. In the books, it's fairly well known gossip that Ramsay Snow is a sadistic monster - the tales of some of his more unsavory games has been told by others in the story as a backdrop for his character's entry into the story. Unfortunately the show chose to put all of Ramsay's evil actions directly on screen instead of exposition (where it actually needed to be done) and in private ... no one but the select few Ramsay uses as tools know what he's really done to Theon in private and no one ever talks about Tansy and the dogs scene which was horrible and you'd think someone would leak that info to the general population.

If word of all that got to Littlefinger, would he still take such a big gamble in taking Sansa to Winterfell? Who knows what they'd do to her, marriage proposal or not. Maybe they'd just finish off the rest of the Starks they can and didn't get ahold of at the Red Wedding?

But they chose not to do any exposition or gossip about Ramsay so the level of his depravity isn't truly known by the outside world, thus making Littlefinger look like a fool for taking her there. That's not the Littlefinger we know from the books and sadly it lessens his character on the show but then again many characters are less complicated than in the books, so I am resigned to that fact.

[HexMachina]

Robert specifically says to Ned that he fears Joffrey on the Throne. And he knows Joffrey cut open a cat and removed it's kittens when he was apyounger, because he nearly killed him for it

[Envie]

Robert specifically says to Ned that he fears Joffrey on the Throne. And he knows Joffrey cut open a cat and removed it's kittens when he was apyounger, because he nearly killed him for it

Ok I'll concede that point, and had forgotten that small detail - thanks for the reminder. But that only shows the overall mistake Ned made in going to King's Landing in the start of the entire story in the first place. But if he'd refused and stayed in Winterfell, we'd have no story to tell, would we? :)

The safest thing Ned could have done was left his daughters behind until he got to King's Landing and settled in and figured out the mystery of Jon Arryn's death. But after Bran got shoved out the window, everything seemed to go into overdrive and the story was off and running in a terrible direction - we knew that from book 1 ... the Starks were going to be the victim heroes for a long time until (hopefully) one of those two daughters taken along on that fateful trip turns things around and saves the whole ending! (Hope springs eternal here!!)

GO SANSA GO!

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

At this point,I'm kinda worried the show is shipping Sansa and LF.She seems to distrust everyone but feel utterly safe with LF.Some may say it is a Stockholm Syndrome type of situation BUT....LF never kidnapped her, never took her against her will so it would only be natural for her to trust him.

I really want to see where this story arc is going.

When I realized she was to be taken to Winterfell to marry Ramsay I was so shocked because its one of the biggest deviations.

I don't think she will have Jeyne's fate.I'm 99% sure of that.I think she won't be the victim as in she won't actually suffer at the hands of Ramsay.I believe she will be a victim in a totally different way.She will be forced to be a perpetrator of heinous acts along with Ramsay and the victim will be Myranda.

[jarl the climber]

One thing I was a little confused about, was Littlerfinger getting married or Sansa? If Littlefinger is getting hitched again who is the bride? Lady Dustin? Or will he marry a Frey bride to cement his rule of Harrenhal.

[Lord Damian]

Did any of you watch "The White Queen"? I expect the consummation scene with Prince Edward and Ann Neville to be repeated for Ramsay and Sansa. It shows no nudity for the female but the psychological effect is just as devastating as if it did. I hope I am wrong but this may be the scene people on the set - crew and cast alike had a tough time with.

[Mladen]

Did any of you watch "The White Queen"? I expect the consummation scene with Prince Edward and Ann Neville to be repeated for Ramsay and Sansa. It shows no nudity for the female but the psychological effect is just as devastating as if it did. I hope I am wrong but this may be the scene people on the set - crew and cast alike had a tough time with.

Yeah, I have seen it. And again, no matter how they go with it, it will be disastrous. Making Sansa a rape victim after that "empowering" stroll down the stairs last season and talk about her becoming a player is something that is completely ridiculous.

[Lord Damian]

Yeah, I have seen it. And again, no matter how they go with it, it will be disastrous. Making Sansa a rape victim after that "empowering" stroll down the stairs last season and talk about her becoming a player is something that is completely ridiculous.

I completely agree. It seems to be a major disconnect from the first 4 seasons and this season, especially with Sansa and Jaime. I am really pretty pissed off but Sansa most of all. We all want to protect her and the impending dread of what seems to be coming is I think going to backlash against D&D in some way. I think it will be very, very regretable if they do it.

[Envie]

I completely agree. It seems to be a major disconnect from the first 4 seasons and this season, especially with Sansa and Jaime. I am really pretty pissed off but Sansa most of all. We all want to protect her and the impending dread of what seems to be coming is I think going to backlash against D&D in some way. I think it will be very, very regretable if they do it.

I think it would be regretable if they went through with keeping it true to the book story. The only reason we could even tolerate it from the books (and even then that was a bit much for me) was because we knew it wasn't really Arya and even then, poor Jeyne Poole, no human should endure that.

Now if they get *close* to it ... attempted rape, attempted humiliation - then that's good (nail-biter but safe) entertainment. Sansa's already had one near-miss that route and the Hound saved her - everyone loved that plot twist, remember? Who will save her this time? Theon?

[Mladen]

Now if they get *close* to it ... attempted rape, attempted humiliation - then that's good (nail-biter but safe) entertainment. Sansa's already had one near-miss that route and the Hound saved her - everyone loved that plot twist, remember? Who will save her this time? Theon?

The ironic thing is that they made it look like she doesn't need a savior. That is what empowerment is all about - not needing someone to save you. And now, she has Theon and Brienne and Pod looking after her? Heavens...

[Lord Damian]

I think it would be regretable if they went through with keeping it true to the book story. The only reason we could even tolerate it from the books (and even then that was a bit much for me) was because we knew it wasn't really Arya and even then, poor Jeyne Poole, no human should endure that.

Now if they get *close* to it ... attempted rape, attempted humiliation - then that's good (nail-biter but safe) entertainment. Sansa's already had one near-miss that route and the Hound saved her - everyone loved that plot twist, remember? Who will save her this time? Theon?

They do not have to do a full Jeyne Poole, viewers already know Ramsay is bonkers. His side kick Myranda could play the F-Arya role and have LF and "Allayne" there as honored guests, still have Brienne and Pod follow but have servants recognize Sansa and she could covertly coordinate sabatoge. Instead, she is supposed to "avenge" her family by marrying Ramsay, give him her body and probably conceive a Bolton heir in her Stark person? Sansa is nothing more than the highest class prostitute Little Finger ever sold if this plays out like it appears.