[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIII - Ghosts of offers passed

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Bri bri really looked bad in that convo I personally would have thought she was full of shit too. And where is she planning on taking Sansa where she'll be safe? There's fucking no where but probably back to the Vale lol. Maybe hide her with Howland Reed if she even knows about him or with the green men or something? Idk I'm at a loss. And I also wasn't clear on if Bri and Pod were in danger I wish that would have been more apparent before everyone had to die. Now are the Vale soldiers after her?

[Envie]

The ironic thing is that they made it look like she doesn't need a savior. That is what empowerment is all about - not needing someone to save you. And now, she has Theon and Brienne and Pod looking after her? Heavens...

You're right - but I never bought the Sansa Darth Apprentice thing from season 4 anyways. It seemed ludicrous then - less so now but still... out of character for Sansa at this point. She *is* learning, I'll admit she's getting much better at the game, but full on manipulation queen mode? No. Especially not with someone as depraved as Ramsay. He's far too smart for that - at least I had hoped he would be, but they almost play him off as a Joker-esque snarky villain in the show so really, I got nothin' here.

[Mladen]

You're right - but I never bought the Sansa Darth Apprentice thing from season 4 anyways. It seemed ludicrous then - less so now but still... out of character for Sansa at this point. She *is* learning, I'll admit she's getting much better at the game, but full on manipulation queen mode? No. Especially not with someone as depraved as Ramsay. He's far too smart for that - at least I had hoped he would be, but they almost play him off as a Joker-esque snarky villain in the show so really, I got nothin' here.

And this is why that entire transformation was a bit funny and alas, having all of this in mind, complete nonsensical. If we argue that the Sansa who strolled down those stars is a new person, the logic dictates that she wouldn't be some new Darth Queen or great seductress or whatever idea has been throwing since. Sansa's journey has been always about growing up. Taking small steps to the end game. The costume was supposed to be dramatic change and shorten us for all those small steps. But, instead of a bit advanced Sansa, we have basically retrograded. The "new" Sansa was supposed to be someone who stops being a victim, someone who can handle situations alone (like she did with Vale lords and LF at the end of Season 4), basically someone who doesn't need a savior. And here we are, her all dressed in black, on the road to become a rape victim being followed by her own personal bodyguard.

On the other hand, we have Ramsay. I have never seen Ramsay as particularly smart in either books or TV show. A smart man would be able to commit attrocities without public knowledge, while Ramsay's hobbies are basically public knowledge throughout the North (and apparently, Petyr "Knowledge is power" Baelish is unaware of this). So, whatever they have in store for these two characters will be messy and probably will make no sense. Which is why this is a problematic storyline. Not because it is difficult to watch, but because it makes no sense for all those involved.

[Lord Damian]

And this is why that entire transformation was a bit funny and alas, having all of this in mind, complete nonsensical. If we argue that the Sansa who strolled down those stars is a new person, the logic dictates that she wouldn't be some new Darth Queen or great seductress or whatever idea has been throwing since. Sansa's journey has been always about growing up. Taking small steps to the end game. The costume was supposed to be dramatic change and shorten us for all those small steps. But, instead of a bit advanced Sansa, we have basically retrograded. The "new" Sansa was supposed to be someone who stops being a victim, someone who can handle situations alone (like she did with Vale lords and LF at the end of Season 4), basically someone who doesn't need a savior. And here we are, her all dressed in black, on the road to become a rape victim being followed by her own personal bodyguard.

On the other hand, we have Ramsay. I have never seen Ramsay as particularly smart in either books or TV show. A smart man would be able to commit attrocities without public knowledge, while Ramsay's hobbies are basically public knowledge throughout the North (and apparently, Petyr "Knowledge is power" Baelish is unaware of this). So, whatever they have in store for these two characters will be messy and probably will make no sense. Which is why this is a problematic storyline. Not because it is difficult to watch, but because it makes no sense for all those involved.

Did they bring in new writters for this years script or is it D & D? Firings may be in order when this is all said and done.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The "new" Sansa was supposed to be someone who stops being a victim, someone who can handle situations alone (like she did with Vale lords and LF at the end of Season 4), basically someone who doesn't need a savior. And here we are, her all dressed in black, on the road to become a rape victim being followed by her own personal bodyguard.

I think they won't go the rape route. I'm still not sure what they seem to be planning, but there's a bunch of scenes that seem to point the other way. I don't understand their reasoning for even going about this storyline this way. If they wanted Sansa in Winterfell, why not make her go there as Alayne? Ramsay and Roose don't know her. The way they've played it, the point of her secret identity was ridiculous.

[Mladen]

Did they bring in new writters for this years script or is it D & D? Firings may be in order when this is all said and done.

The first two episodes were written by D&D. Well, I have said this already. The only thing that might save this season is a lot of shock value moments.

I think they won't go the rape route. I'm still not sure what they seem to be planning, but there's a bunch of scenes that seem to point the other way. I don't understand their reasoning for even going about this storyline this way. If they wanted Sansa in Winterfell, why not make her go there as Alayne? Ramsay and Roose don't know her. The way they've played it, the point of her secret identity was ridiculous.

Well, whatever route they are going, it makes no sense. I wish they are not going rape route, for the simple reason that making Sansa a rape victim would be a bit too much (regardless what some fans are dying to see). We will wait and see, but honestly, I expect nothing good. This thread is destined for some hate pouring left and right this season :(

[Raksha 2014]

And this is why that entire transformation was a bit funny and alas, having all of this in mind, complete nonsensical. If we argue that the Sansa who strolled down those stars is a new person, the logic dictates that she wouldn't be some new Darth Queen or great seductress or whatever idea has been throwing since. Sansa's journey has been always about growing up. Taking small steps to the end game. The costume was supposed to be dramatic change and shorten us for all those small steps. But, instead of a bit advanced Sansa, we have basically retrograded. The "new" Sansa was supposed to be someone who stops being a victim, someone who can handle situations alone (like she did with Vale lords and LF at the end of Season 4), basically someone who doesn't need a savior. And here we are, her all dressed in black, on the road to become a rape victim being followed by her own personal bodyguard.

On the other hand, we have Ramsay. I have never seen Ramsay as particularly smart in either books or TV show. A smart man would be able to commit attrocities without public knowledge, while Ramsay's hobbies are basically public knowledge throughout the North (and apparently, Petyr "Knowledge is power" Baelish is unaware of this). So, whatever they have in store for these two characters will be messy and probably will make no sense. Which is why this is a problematic storyline. Not because it is difficult to watch, but because it makes no sense for all those involved.

TV-Littlefinger is just not as smart as BookFinger. Why isn't he at least filling Sansa's head with every bit of knowledge he has about the Boltons and their new North power brokerage, what with knowledge-is-power being his mantra and all. Does he think that Sansa going into the den of her mother and brother's murderers, handed over to Ramsay on a silver platter, is such a great strategy that she should go in ignorant? In the promo it looked like Littlefinger tells Sansa about her impending marriage to Ramsay when they're approaching Winterfell, which gives her hardly any time to prepare for her new role (also no time to try to steal a horse and escape).

I cannot fathom why Littlefinger would risk Sansa in this way; unless he really wants her to be humiliated, endangered, possibly physically harmed, so he can swoop in somehow and save her (never mind that Winter is Coming and might stop him getting anywhere near Casa Bolton).

[Grail King]

At this point,I'm kinda worried the show is shipping Sansa and LF.She seems to distrust everyone but feel utterly safe with LF.Some may say it is a Stockholm Syndrome type of situation BUT....LF never kidnapped her, never took her against her will so it would only be natural for her to trust him.

I really want to see where this story arc is going.

When I realized she was to be taken to Winterfell to marry Ramsay I was so shocked because its one of the biggest deviations.

I don't think she will have Jeyne's fate.I'm 99% sure of that.I think she won't be the victim as in she won't actually suffer at the hands of Ramsay.I believe she will be a victim in a totally different way.She will be forced to be a perpetrator of heinous acts along with Ramsay and the victim will be Myranda.

Sansa doesn't trust him, just watch all of Sophie's facial and eye reactions, but she still has learning to do as she thinks in only one direction as she showed her disdain of him marrying so close after her Aunt Lysa's death.

Also she was warning Brienne to get out of there before Peter has her killed.

[Grail King]

One thing I was a little confused about, was Littlerfinger getting married or Sansa? If Littlefinger is getting hitched again who is the bride? Lady Dustin? Or will he marry a Frey bride to cement his rule of Harrenhal.

Think back to the raven note, and look at the looks he gives Sansa, now think like Baleish knowing how he thinks, at the inn saying the note was good news but he didn't say for who.

He wants Brienne dead, not good forshadowing.

[ADanceWithCats]

At this point,I'm kinda worried the show is shipping Sansa and LF.She seems to distrust everyone but feel utterly safe with LF.Some may say it is a Stockholm Syndrome type of situation BUT....LF never kidnapped her, never took her against her will so it would only be natural for her to trust him..

Well, it's more of a partnership kind of thing. But the same thing happens in the books, too - have you read the latest chapter? Sansa's pretty comfy with LF there.

And the reason for this is pretty obvious, too. They are getting closer so that when LF slips and Sansa takes her revenge, it'll be on a man who's extremely close to her. Have you read 'Les liaisons dangereuses'? It's one of the tastiest novels ever, and I hope we'll get a version light for Sansa and LF.

[Mithras]

Excuse me but how can you buy that Sansa was empowered by a simple change of gown? How can trusting the vile snake responsible for the downfall of her family be empowering? Now that the vile snake is selling her like a chattel, I think the actual point is that this so-called empowering was an illusion.

[Woman of War]

Yeah, I have seen it. And again, no matter how they go with it, it will be disastrous. Making Sansa a rape victim after that "empowering" stroll down the stairs last season and talk about her becoming a player is something that is completely ridiculous.

Can't strong women be rape victims? Being a rape victim means a woman was never strong???

Can't women be strong and empowered after they have been abused, transforming their abuse into determination? I am sure that whatever happens to Sansa her story for at least one series and one book is not over yet, she will live on. Even players can be victims and victims can turn into players at a certain point of their biography, in fiction just like in real life. If Sansa fails now she can return even stronger as many abused women managed to do.

Violence against Sansa would not end her story, unlike Shireen getting burned Sansa would come back.

Think of Phoolan Devi, the so-called Bandit Queen in India, despite being abused many times she went and fought back.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8791976/Who-was-Phoolan-Devi-Indias-original-Bandit-Queen.html

[James Arryn]

Can't strong women be rape victims? Being a rape victim means a woman was never strong???

Can't women be strong and empowered after they have been abused, transforming their abuse into determination? I am sure that whatever happens to Sansa her story for at least one series and one book is not over yet, she will live on. Even players can be victims and victims can turn into players at a certain point of their biography, in fiction just like in real life. If Sansa fails now she can return even stronger as many abused women managed to do.

I think Risto's point was less to do with the inherent strength of a woman who is raped in and of itself...I don't see how it could...but rather the auteur's choices in how that is presented. Remember Sansa doesn't actually exist, and so there is no question of denying her personal integrity as it relates to being able to overcome the shit life can deal out; it's all about what the authors want to say about the character. Sansa the real person could obviously overcome the abuse and grow from it, but are audiences going to want to see another repeat of the same narrative loop which has already been her primary depiction? Do we need to see it in yet another, deeper, more disturbing way to 'get' it any more than we already do? Is there a chance that that isn't necessarily what GRRM wants to say?

[ADanceWithCats]

Excuse me but how can you buy that Sansa was empowered by a simple change of gown? How can trusting the vile snake responsible for the downfall of her family be empowering? Now that the vile snake is selling her like a chattel, I think the actual point is that this so-called empowering was an illusion.

You're the guy/gal who said Sansa hasn't learnt one thing in the books, right? Heh.

Being empowered does not mean that you automatically make all the right decisions. It just means that you make your own decisions - cf. Mance in 501. Sure, Sansa is operating under conditions of incomplete information, so her decisions may not seem to be correct if viewed by an outsider. But they are hers.

It's not the changing clothes that's important here. It's what she did earlier - the choice not to spill on Littlefinger. It was her decision and her choice.

[James Arryn]

You're the guy/gal who said Sansa hasn't learnt one thing in the books, right? Heh.

Being empowered does not mean that you automatically make all the right decisions. It just means that you make your own decisions - cf. Mance in 501. Sure, Sansa is operating under conditions of incomplete information, so her decisions may not seem to be correct if viewed by an outsider. But they are hers.

It's not the changing clothes that's important here. It's what she did earlier - the choice not to spill on Littlefinger. It was her decision and her choice.

How would you distinguish that from not spilling on LF because he wouldn't want her to? How is it distinct from her pre-empowerment choice to spill on Ned? Or earlier, not to spill on Joff. Or earlier, to spill on Arya. Etc.

[ummester]

I cannot fathom why Littlefinger would risk Sansa in this way; unless he really wants her to be humiliated, endangered, possibly physically harmed, so he can swoop in somehow and save her (never mind that Winter is Coming and might stop him getting anywhere near Casa Bolton).

I don't think show LF wants Sansa endangered. I think his plan with her is to insert someone he thinks he can trust in a position of power in the North.

Show Ramsay is not the same as book Ramsay, either. Book Ramsay is a seriously dire, ugly and mean spirited person, show Ramsay has a certain charisma. It's like Charles Manson vs Dexter - Dexter is likeable and has sex appeal, a screen psychopath for giggles, which doesn't feel that threatening.

So I also don't think LF wants to save Sansa at a later date, either.

I think LF thinks of Sansa like a really high class whore, that he also happens to have feelings for. She is still a commodity to him, all people are, but she is a very special commodity. It's like you can love your car, or your favourite race horse (if you breed race horses) but you still don't think of them as a human entity, like yourself. This is how I think LF views all people, even one that he cares about, like Sansa.

[Good Guy Garlan]

You're the guy/gal who said Sansa hasn't learnt one thing in the books, right? Heh.

Being empowered does not mean that you automatically make all the right decisions. It just means that you make your own decisions - cf. Mance in 501. Sure, Sansa is operating under conditions of incomplete information, so her decisions may not seem to be correct if viewed by an outsider. But they are hers.

It's not the changing clothes that's important here. It's what she did earlier - the choice not to spill on Littlefinger. It was her decision and her choice.

But she's been doing that since aGoT. She chose to not tell the truth about what happened with Mycah and all that, she chose to spill the beans to Cersei, she chose to save Dontos, she chose to meet Dontos in secret, she chose to tell the Tyrells the truth about Joffrey, she chose to lie to the Lords Declarant, etc.

[ummester]

But she's been doing that since aGoT. She chose to not tell the truth about what happened with Mycah and all that, she chose to spill the beans to Cersei, she chose to save Dontos, she chose to meet Dontos in secret, she chose to tell the Tyrells the truth about Joffrey, she chose to lie to the Lords Declarant, etc.

She's a very passive, meek character, in books and show. She makes choices but they are generally so meek or passive that they don't feel like choices to most people at all.

[Woman of War]

I think Risto's point was less to do with the inherent strength of a woman who is raped in and of itself...I don't see how it could...but rather the auteur's choices in how that is presented. Remember Sansa doesn't actually exist, and so there is no question of denying her personal integrity as it relates to being able to overcome the shit life can deal out; it's all about what the authors want to say about the character. Sansa the real person could obviously overcome the abuse and grow from it, but are audiences going to want to see another repeat of the same narrative loop which has already been her primary depiction? Do we need to see it in yet another, deeper, more disturbing way to 'get' it any more than we already do? Is there a chance that that isn't necessarily what GRRM wants to say?

I get what you are saying.

But Sansa has been described as someone who endures, who builds up strength so slowly if at all, that her fictional character thoroughly annoyed me. And now she is coming strong and I get captivated. This does not have to be a straightforward line, there may be setbacks, small or serious.

And the story of Phoolan Devi

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8791976/Who-was-Phoolan-Devi-Indias-original-Bandit-Queen.html

(I only found the link after you had posted so you could not see it) is also one to establish that a woman who is no longer "pure" but "soiled goods" in the eyes of patriarchy can be more impressive than ever. Devi's story is far, far, far away from any fairytale and so will Sansa's story be in the end. There will be a painful, to her character and to any reader, conglomerate of violence done to her and of violence done by her in the end, we'll see where the emphasis lies. And both will hurt her equally yet, cynical as it may be, make her stronger and more interesting as literary invention.

Do not forget we are not discussing an RL person like Devi was. No one suffers in reality , only we readers. Martin or the show are not doing a feature about abused women, they are looking for a plot that is the most compelling, that keeps us hooked.

But you are arguing from an in-story logic, not "I love Sansa so much, let someone else be Ramsay's victim!" But all the important characters have serious setbacks to endure, may it be Jon, Dany or Tyrion. And so may Sansa.

[Good Guy Garlan]

She's a very passive, meek character, in books and show. She makes choices but they are generally so meek or passive that they don't feel like choices to most people at all.

Well, yeah, they're subtle choices, but significant nonetheless. If she ever decides to make a move against LF for whatever reason, that's how I think it would be, something subtle but important, not a grand, flashy gesture. Like, the right whisper in Myranda Royce's bed could be enough to snowball from there and cause LF's downfall, for example (talking about the books, of course)